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Court summons questions - Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied

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  • 28-09-2022 1:10pm
    #1
    randomstuff
    Registered Users Posts: 617 ✭✭✭


    Hello Legal forum.

    My partner drove unaccompanied as a learner. Garda stopped her, she got fined+points and car impounded (car was released on the day after payment and collection). This happened 10 months ago.

    I got a letter this week for a court summons, alleged offence: Vehicle owner allow learner driver use vehicle unaccompanied.

    Reading up on it, seems like max fine is 1000 euro for me as owner of car. Seems steep but I guess its the law...

    Couple of general questions:

    1. Do I require a solicitor? Would you recommend I get one? Reading up on solicitor fees, they seem to range from 200-300 per hour. How many hours should I budget for my case if I want one?
    2. When in court, what are my options? I mean I assume I can plead guilty or not guilty? My plan is to plead guilty I think...
    3. My partners name is misspelled on the court summons. I faintly remember reading somewhere that the name and details all have to match exactly, if not judge will throw the case out?
    4. In the court summons, the garda says he will be out of the jurisdiction at the time and one of his colleagues will be present?
    5. My wife has since passed the test, and gotten a full license - do you think I should present this? Is it relevant to the judge?

    My plan so far is to bring following to court on the day:

    1. Car vehicle registration
    2. Car NCT
    3. Car insurance proof
    4. My driving license
    5. Partners passed test result + license

    Anything else I'm missing?

    Thank you for any help/advice and answers you can provide.



«13

Comments

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    #2
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,087 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    If you are unsure of the Laws or if you plan to defend any of the charges on your summons for any reason then yes, you should consult a solicitor.

    A wise option would be to call into a local practice and ask if they cover cases for the relevant local district court. If they can't help then they should be able to direct you to one who can give you a better appraisal of your case based on your summons along with the facts as they are and advise you if you will need representation on the day or not, and of the costs of same. A good solicitor could well be the difference between a strike out/acquittal or a hefty fine and perhaps more on the day.

    Post edited by Losty Dublin on


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    #3
    Dr Turk Turkelton
    Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    I know I'd be raging if my wife took my car without telling me.



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    #4
    MV33
    Registered Users Posts: 45 ✭MV33


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677351#Comment_119677351

    Ok but is that what happened?

    I don’t see where’s its mentioned that she didn’t have permission.



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    #5
    Dr Turk Turkelton
    Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677411#Comment_119677411

    By the time I made it to court with a thousand euro fine hanging over me that would be exactly what happened.



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    #6
    dennyk
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭dennyk


    With that sort of fine involved, it'd definitely be wise to consult a solicitor. A minor clerical error on the summons will not get it thrown out, and the fact that your partner has a license now is unlikely to be relevant; what matters is that she didn't have a full license at the time of the offence.



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    #7
    Gadgie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,079 ✭✭✭Gadgie


    When was the summons applied for? You say this happened ten months ago, but you only got the summons now. The Gardai need to apply for the summons within six months of the alleged offence. A solicitor will check this for you.



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    #8
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677602#Comment_119677602

    so instead of the OP being charged with letting a learner drive unaccompanied you think they should tell the guards she took it without permission and leave her open to a charge of theft?



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    #9
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,502 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677602#Comment_119677602

    You'd end up with your wife being charged with taking a vehicle then. Rather more serious charge.



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    #10
    Squatman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Squatman


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679378#Comment_119679378

    yea, agree with this, seems like a silly suggestion from the previous poster. No, the summons isnt voided due to minor clerical errrors, but as suggested i believe there is a statute of limitation on the summons. Not fully sure on this, but i had previously understood this to be 6 monthsl



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    #11
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679399#Comment_119679399

    They have 6 months to apply for the summons. Issuing and serving the summons will take some time after that.



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    #12
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679387#Comment_119679387

    Well either she took it with the owner's permission or not. If it was with, the owner deserves what he gets, if not then she deserves what she gets, it's hardly going to be a stretch in Spike Island.

    Hang on though - the only way this could be prosecuted one way or the other is if one spouse in effect testifies against the other - I thought that was something you could not be obliged to do.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #13
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,353 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119677893#Comment_119677893

    How much do you think a solicitor will charge?

    The MAX fine is €1,000. That doesn't mean the OP will be fined that amount.

    If this was me I would just plead guilty apologise and assure them it won't happen again and move on with my life



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    #14
    CreadanLady
    Registered Users Posts: 791 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Get a solicitor. Judges don't like people who represent themselves as they usually haven't a clue and hold things up with waffle and gibberish. Judges don't like their time being wasted by smart arses or amatuers.

    Get a solicitor.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



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    #15
    Dr Turk Turkelton
    Registered Users Posts: 2,932 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679387#Comment_119679387

    But she took it without his knowledge rather than without his permission.

    If they are married surely they both own it.

    She had already being charged and punished for her crime.



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    #16
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679999#Comment_119679999

    there is only one owner of the vehicle.



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    #17
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679870#Comment_119679870

    Turn up, say sorry, plead guilty. Dont waffle, no gibberish. The judge may take pity on them.



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    #18
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679999#Comment_119679999

    But she took it without his knowledge rather than without his permission.

    If you had no knowledge then you couldn't give permission, pretty much the same result.


    If they are married surely they both own it.

    A very common misunderstanding, marriage does not mean joint ownership of property. There is no doctrine of matremonail property in Irish law. Marriage simply gives an interest in property, not joint ownership.


    She had already being charged and punished for her crime.

    There separate offenses (dealing with separate people) and has nothing to do with the driver already being punished.



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    #19
    mondeoman72
    Registered Users Posts: 851 ✭✭✭mondeoman72


    Our house has a car in wifes name, another in my name, and a third in daughters name. We jump into whichever is out first. There is no asking involved. Is there an angle about wife jumps into "our car" so this arguement is mute?



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    #20
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680345#Comment_119680345

    so you have an arrangement where you have given other permission to use each others cars at any time.



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    #21
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680345#Comment_119680345

    The problem was she wasn't licensed to drive the car.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #22
    Caranica
    Registered Users Posts: 10,085 ✭✭✭✭Caranica


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119680345#Comment_119680345

    No it's not moot. Are you all insured on all three cars? Your wife would only be insured in the presence of a fully licensed driver with required licence length. You knowingly gave your wife access to your car, the question is whether you knew she would drive it alone.



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    #23
    TooTired123
    Registered Users Posts: 2,232 ✭✭✭TooTired123


    If you hire a solicitor then whatever he or she saves you on the fine you’ll have to pay to him or her anyway so don’t bother.

    Turn up looking smart apologize profusely and sincerely to the Court and the Garda for wasting everyone’s time, say absolutely nothing else unless someone asks you a question, pay whatever fine if any they give you. Go home draw a line under the whole thing and move on.



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    #24
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679428#Comment_119679428

    Sorry if this is a dumb question but if the husband said she took the car without permission, can the Gardai charge the wife with taking the car without permission given that the 6 month timeframe for applying for a summons has long expired?



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    #25
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119697297#Comment_119697297

    Well, I presume the guard asked the husband at the time if they had given consent. Otherwise why would they charge the husband with allowing a learner to drive unaccompanied?I



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    #26
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,661 ✭✭✭zg3409


    Another possibility is case won't go ahead due to a busy day or gardai not showing up etc. It's quite common for cases relatively simple like this for gardai to be a no show and case never is rescheduled.

    If you turn up in person judge tends to take into account you took a day off work etc. A solicitor can help sweeten the deal but it may not make financial sense. Try to get a solicitor that would be there at court on the day anyway. I paid about 250 euro fixed for a solicitor to represent me at a case and he asked me to not attend, in the end Garda never showed and that was it.

    Plead guilty suck it up. I would be worried about insurance questions such as were you ever convicted of a motoring offence which may impact your car insurance. It's hard to deny it if a Garda has written you admitted it in his pocket book record.



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    #27
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If the Garda doesn't show up then really you should be compensated for your time and legal costs.

    A garda writing things in their notebook is not a conviction no matter what the basis of it is, that's for our courts alone to decide so nothing to inform future insurers of unless there actually is a conviction.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #28
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699003#Comment_119699003

    they have been summoned to court. a bit more than writing something in their notebook.



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    #29
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,523 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Thankfully we're not yet at the stage where suspicion is the same as guilt.

    If the insurer wants to know if anyone was charged with an offence then that's the question they should be asking, but (a) that's none of their business if no conviction and (b) being found innocent of an offence but being punished anyway is not justice.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #30
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,354 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119699042#Comment_119699042

    what is the relevance of this to the thread?



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    #31
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,267 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119679378#Comment_119679378


    It wouldn't be theft if she believed she had permission, or believed that it would be given if requested given the circumstances



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