First Communion preparation to be moved out of classrooms.
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I disagree with your idea that sacramental preparation isn’t part of education. It’s part of Catholic education, and it shouldn’t just be done by the school, it’s expected to be done first and foremost by parents, within the wider Catholic community, of which Catholic schools are a part of that community, established for the education of Catholic children.
I disagree too with the idea that schools have to be for everyone, or treating everyone equally and fairly. That’s already an obligation of the State, which I think it’s fair to say isn’t treating anyone who doesn’t want their children to receive a Catholic education equally or fairly by saying to them that because there’s places available in schools who’s ethos they don’t subscribe to and don’t support, that’s their only option if they wish to enrol their children in formal education.
I’m obviously fortunate in that I have greater opportunities for choice in how my child is educated, and I want other people to have the opportunity for that choice too for their children. I don’t subscribe to the ET model or the SSI models of education, but I don’t mind supporting them financially at least, or any other form of education, such as home schooling which is becoming increasingly popular as more and more parents are opting out of formal education for various reasons, acting according to what they believe is in their children’s best interests, and there are homeschooling networks exist which support parents who choose that form of education for their children, which don’t receive any Government support.
If your idea is to create a sort of “one form of education should be sufficient for all”, I don’t agree with that idea at all, because there’s no parental choice in it, nor does it recognise the fact that children have different educational needs, nor does it recognise the idea that schools themselves are a community of people who share similar ideals and values, which aren’t necessarily shared among other groups in Irish society, and I don’t agree with the idea that they should be forced on anyone.
I say the same of Catholics trying to force their ideas on others obviously, which is why I’m not in favour of the idea that anyone should be able to enrol their children in a school who’s ethos they do not support, and then complain that their children aren’t treated as though they’re Catholic, for example. Of course they’re not, because they’re not Catholic, any more than I would have a legitimate complaint if I chose to enrol my child in a school who’s ethos I didn’t support, and then complained because my child isn’t being treated like all the other children who’s parents or guardians support the ethos of the school, and then if they were treated the same, I still complain because my child’s differences aren’t being recognised.
It’s different obviously if my child is different and I don’t have an issue with them being treated differently on that basis, such as if they have special educational needs which require additional supports. They’re not being treated the same as the other children, but there’s a legitimate reason for it, and it would be a petty individual who would have an issue with a child receiving additional support, or complaining that “the taxpayer” shouldn’t have to fund their education. I’ve met a few people with that attitude towards children who need additional support In mainstream education. They are, as you suggested earlier, entitled to express their opinions at least, Ireland being a democratic society and all and everyone has an equal right to freedom of expression, but it doesn’t follow from that, that anyone is obligated to take them seriously.
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Child indoctrination issues aside, if there was some way to ensure parity of religious educational experience across all denominations in the country then you might have a point - but this does not exist within the power of the state. It's just not possible to have a school for every religion everywhere in the country that can cater to students of that denomination.
Therefore to ensure parity of education in general, (which I believe all students should receive and nobody should be marginalized because of what their parents may/may not believe), you need to remove religious education from schools.
I was raised as a non Catholic and as a result, had to sit out Communion and Confirmation, as well as religious classes in secondary school. There was no structure put in place for this time, I was just 'waiting around' for everyone to finish up their religious education segments.
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So you want to force COI and Muslim parents to lose the right to send their children to schools of their own ethos, just because the Catholic Church got too bug for its boots previously. Nice.
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Nice bit of whataboutery. You could have also included the The Jews too for full effect and accuse me of being anti-Semitic.
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Time for the government to bring in laws protecting all children from these cults.
Nobody under the age of 18 should be allowed to be enrolled in any religious organisation.
The whole thing is a con. These cults desperate to get their hands on impressionable kids as no adult would believe the shite they spout.
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I can’t think of a reason why it’s necessary to ensure parity of educational experience across all denominations in the country? That’s up to the organisations offering education what kind of experience they wish to offer to parents, and it’s up to parents whether or not they wish to avail of the organisations services. I think it’s certainly possible to have a school for every denomination, or none, anywhere in the country where the organisation sees a need for it. That’s how the Dalkey Project became Educate Together, and the only thing that’s preventing them from expanding their network of schools is the DES mandating that as long as there are places available in existing schools, the DES isn’t going to sanction a new school in the area.
The DES appears to be taking the opposite approach to yours in that they are leaning more towards establishing multidenominational schools, so organising nondenominational schools in that environment is an uphill battle in itself. That’s not to suggest it couldn’t be done, it would just be more difficult to do it without being eligible for public funding. It could still be funded privately if the will was there to do it. Schools are already dependent upon being funded by parents because the State funding just doesn’t sufficiently cover their costs -
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2022/0913/1323237-primary-schools-funding/
The idea of achieving parity in educational experiences for every child is a laudable goal, just not one I’m particularly concerned with if I’m being honest, and certainly not if the means to achieve it involves depriving children of opportunities to be educated in accordance with their parents world views, religious or otherwise.
With regard to your own personal circumstances, given your parents were responsible for your education, would they have preferred if there were an alternative available such as nondenominational education? I’m obviously not a fan of having children excluded from participating in class, but if that’s what parents choose for their children, I’m not going to tell them how to raise their own children or demand that they should do what I think is in their children’s best interests. I’m not a fan of weaponising children against their parents either, that just causes parents to withdraw their children from formal education in favour of homeschooling, which, again, has it’s own advantages and disadvantages meaning that parity isn’t something that’s easily achieved.
From my point of view the idea of limiting parents choices for their children’s education amounts to their children receiving a subpar education which would invariably mean that the State is failing to uphold the child’s right to an education which is suitable for their needs, and the State gets away with plenty of that already due to the lack of investment in education in Ireland.
Depriving children of educational opportunities in the pursuit of treating all children equally is kinda like the tired old rhetoric when anyone raises the point of women being treated as equals to men, that they never seem to want to do shìt jobs, as if that’s of any benefit to society. I’d hope anyone could see the issue with such a ridiculous argument, and now apply the same logic to the idea of depriving children of a religious education because children who aren’t religious are being deprived of equal opportunities in education. You don’t address inequality by depriving anyone of what they have in order that they now have it just as shìtty as the people who are also being deprived of their freedom. Such an approach to inequality just doesn’t make any sense, because it appears to be motivated out of spite rather than a desire to improve anyone’s circumstances.
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I’m not in favour of the idea that anyone should be able to enrol their children in a school who’s ethos they do not support, and then complain that their children aren’t treated as though they’re Catholic, for example.
This means non-Catholics being treated as second class citizens in 89% of primary schools. Which is what we have now...
After all these years, I can't believe you are still going on about nondenominational education as if it's a thing. It's not. The Department of Education requires all schools to have a denomination or be multi-denominational. It's like talking to a fcuking wall.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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In that specific context, yes it does, and like I said - not a fan. It’s why I suggested that in order for their rights to be protected, they should have equal access to education in accordance with their parents views. You’re obviously not a fan of that idea though as you’re hell-bent on getting religion out of religious ethos schools, instead of lobbying Government to protect the rights of children who aren’t religious and their rights to an education which is suitable for their needs. Instead you want to take the opposite approach and deprive children of their rights so that they too can get a feel for the idea of being a second-class citizen.
I’m well aware that nondenominational education isn’t a thing, yet. The only patron offering nondenominational education is SSI, and the closest they came to being approved was their application being rejected on the basis they didn’t fill out the forms properly. By the time the Courts pointed out the DES couldn’t understand their own policies, it was too late as Cork ETB had already been appointed the patron of the new school!
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/0302/856785-school-patronage-secular-schools-ireland/
Community National Schools are part of the State’s response to an increasing diversity in Irish society. There is a growing demand amongst parents for the State to provide more choice of school types other than single-denominational models. There is also a growing demand in Ireland for publicly-managed primary schools as up until now they have been publicly-funded but privately-managed. The development of Community National Schools answers both demands and represents a very exciting and welcome evolution in Irish education. With a long history of excellence in primary education acknowledged world-wide, the Irish State is yet again breaking ground with this new model of primary school that recognises and celebrates the identity of all children equally.
https://www.corketb.ie/community-national-schools/
You probably didn’t get to that yet though -
The DES appears to be taking the opposite approach to yours in that they are leaning more towards establishing multidenominational schools, so organising nondenominational schools in that environment is an uphill battle in itself. That’s not to suggest it couldn’t be done, it would just be more difficult to do it without being eligible for public funding. It could still be funded privately if the will was there to do it. Schools are already dependent upon being funded by parents because the State funding just doesn’t sufficiently cover their costs -
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2022/0913/1323237-primary-schools-funding/
And I pointed it out in the previous post that Ireland continues to thumb its nose at the UN in this regard, and has done for some time now -
Indeed, Ireland misled the UN Committee this year by saying the government’s objective is to have 400 ‘multi-denominational or non-denominational schools’. But this is not true. The programme for government refers only to ‘multi-denominational’ schools.
What the UN has repeatedly asked for is secular or non-denominational schools, which they explicitly refer to in this week’s concluding observations.
https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2022/07/un-again-tells-ireland/
‘Tis indeed a bit like talking to the wall alright 😒
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As much as I've no time for the church, or more accurately for any church im not in favor of religion being removed from education, in fact i think we should be providing more education on religion to children, just not discriminating towards any church in particular and the education should be not focused on any one religion but give children a grounding in all the major religions to promote understanding and tolerance. When teenagers have friends fasting during Ramadan they should understand what its about, when muslim kids see little white dresses and drunk uncles during communion season they can understand it as well. We live in a multicultural country and we very often lack understanding of many cultures we share the community with.
School are community located and should provide fully for the entire community, not just the catholic kids of that community, you pay your taxes and have a right to have your kids educated nearby.
I consider religion to be an extra curricular activity, but maybe there should be a halfway house type arrangement where schools will provide their facilities after official school time is finished to local vetted and approved religious groups and children can opt in to attend these classes. After school religion education provided by the local church whatever the denomination with any costs covered by the participating kids / parents / church.
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I don’t think that the teaching of religion is the problem. It’s the amount of school time given over to the preparation for the sacraments. This is what should be removed from the school and given over to the Church and parents and done in their own time. Dedicated prayer meetings in church. Led by priests, nuns and parents.
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I think both are problems, just the massive amount of time wasted is a bigger problem
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Except it's not a different issue. It's the same one: provision of education appropriate to the child's family beliefs.
There are COI and Islamic schools in Ireland. I don't know of any Jewish or non-denonimational-Christan ones, so I didn't list them. But they may well exist.
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@One eyed Jack When everyone is treated equally then nobody is a second-class citizen. What we have is the complete opposite, religious cults running schools, favouring "their own" children, and subjecting everyone else to indoctrination against their parents' wishes.
In what other developed countries is religious instruction regarded as an essential part of the school day? It's a bizarre sense of entitlement dogmatic Catholics have, almost the whole primary education system is completely warped to accommodate their desires.
@lawrencesummers That's exactly how it works in ETs, religious education during the school day which does not push any particular faith or non-faith position. Religious instruction after the school day for those who opt in to it. It works well. It should be the norm not the exception.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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If churches were removed as patrons/trustees/owners of schools, does that mean there would just be one single, nationwide patron/trustee, i.e. the ETB?
Take a town with four 2nd level schools, say Athlone.
Does that mean all four would be ETB?
Or would other patrons be allowed (non-church)?
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Jewish national school.
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It’s an obligation of the State to ensure that everyone is treated as being of equal status in law. There are exemptions in law, but you’re hardly suggesting that religious organisations have the same obligation towards people who are not members of the organisation? Parents or guardians are of course entitled to enrol their children in a school who’s ethos they don’t support, but they’re not entitled to undermine the rights of everyone else’s children to an education which is in accordance with their religion.
In every every country, developed or otherwise, religious instruction in religious ethos schools is considered an essential part of the school day. Take a look at our closest neighbours from whom we inherited the legacy of our current education system: the UK, and the treatment of people who are non-religious there -
Catholics regarding religious instruction as an important part of the school day in Catholic ethos schools is not a sense of entitlement, let alone bizarre or dogmatic. It’s a pretty fcuking obvious expectation, one that does tend to surprise parents who enrol their children in Catholic ethos schools having forgotten what it was like for themselves, only to be reminded by their own children being treated as though they’re Catholic, or being treated as though they’re not to be treated the same as everyone else because their parents have made it explicitly clear they’re not Catholic.
Primary education is warped the way it is because people continue to support Catholic education by enrolling their children in Catholic ethos schools. The State is obligated to provide for education regardless of the ethos of the school, provided it meets the other criteria to be considered a recognised school, such as agreeing to provide the national curriculum. Parents are under no obligation to enrol their children in any school, but they do, and doing so doesn’t give them a right to undermine other parents rights and the rights of their children. You appear to be refusing to acknowledge that the DES is responsible for the current situation in education in Ireland. They would be, because they have oversight and responsibility for the whole system, yet you’ll continue to blame Catholics whom you call dogmatic and sectarian and claim the whole system is warped to accommodate their desires.
Must be no mirrors in your gaff 😒
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There are exemptions in law, but you’re hardly suggesting that religious organisations have the same obligation towards people who are not members of the organisation?
Of course they should. They are providing education on behalf of the State using State funds. If they don't find this acceptable they're more than welcome to get off the stage and set up their own schools fully funded by themselves.
But instead we have an entire primary education system which revolves around the dogmas and desires of the Catholic Church, and ever since the foundation of the State the Department of Education has connived in this.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Primary education is warped the way it is because people continue to support Catholic education by enrolling their children in Catholic ethos schools.
Oh FFS, really? 🙄
They are legally obliged to ensure their children are educated.
They have nowhere else to go.
They have no choice.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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It’s you who doesn’t find it acceptable that they are providing education in accordance with their own religion, same as every other patron who is providing education according to their own religion or world view, such as ETBs, An Foras Pátrúnachta or ET who beat out AFP for patronage of a new school, with the DES again being accused of failing to meet its legal duties -
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-20470691.html
It’s you who is more than welcome to get off the stage and set up your own schools managed by volunteers who share your ideas for how children should be educated in accordance with your world view. I’d be all for it as it’s giving parents more choices in education of their own children, as opposed to your own ideas being the only option for parents in the education of their own children.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2022/0307/1284755-schools-divesting-nenagh/
You’ll be entitled to apply for State funding on the same basis as every other patron then to educate the children of parents who share your views, but there’s no hope of religious schools being denied State funding for providing education to children whose parents want that form of education for their children. Your best hope is convincing more parents that they should want to send their children to ET schools. Good luck with that 👍
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Yes really, in spite of your weasel worded effort to try and claim parents have nowhere else to go or that they have no choice. The responsibility for their children’s education is placed on parents, supported by the State -
1 The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.
2 Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State.
3 1° The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.
2° The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social.
4 The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.
The bit in bold is an obligation of the State, not the education providers, and it applies to having due regard for the rights of parents who are religious, and parents who aren’t.
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Your best hope is convincing more parents that they should want to send their children to ET schools. Good luck with that 👍
You mean the oversubscribed ET schools with overwhelming demand? Those schools? And the vast numbers of communities where no such school even exists?
I don't wish or need to convince anyone. There is already huge unmet demand for change.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Where are they to go?
We are not all the Burkes.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
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Yep, them schools, and with any luck the DES will see that the demand is one that needs to be met when more and more parents demand ET schools and aren’t willing to enrol their children in schools which is a violation of their conscience and lawful preference.
They can gather together a group of volunteers who are willing and interested in establishing schools in their areas and just bypass the whole DES entirely, providing education privately until the DES cops there’s something amiss when all the religious ethos schools are closing down. That’s what I’d do if I were in their position and I felt strongly about it as you do.
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What are you to do when most 85% or so of national schools are catholic? We have no choice were we are at with our kids so we are stuck with our kids wasting large parts of their days with religious nonsense.
It would be a good day for the country if all religions died out.
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Great opportunity to get general housekeeping done in the schools while Enoch is away.
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The Constitution in theory guarantees the right to attend any state-funded school without attending religious instruction, but in practice kids who are opted out are obliged to attend religious instruction even if they don't take part.
If a parent actually wants to make a bit of effort rather then they can take the child out for the duration of the class rather than being a hypocrite. It turns out though that most just like to whinge and moan in a "look at me everyone, I'm special" way but when it comes to actually doing something, they don't bother their arses. Nobody is obliged to attend
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Maybe they're busy earning a living?
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If they really felt strongly about it, they'd find a way.
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That sounds like their problem, not other peoples'.
Maybe if they worked a little harder then they could get a better job and send their kids to the school they want to send them to rather than taking the lazy option and then wanting everyone else to change to facilitate their laziness.
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There will be no shortage of excuses. And it will always be someone else's fault.
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