First Communion preparation to be moved out of classrooms.
Comments
-
Sixth class is when the streaming decisions for secondary are made, with potentially life long consequences. A time sink distraction is not welcome.
3 -
I went to a Christian Brothers primary and secondary.
In the early 80s in the primary, in one of the poorest suburbs of Dublin, they decided to build a chapel on-site (although the massive parish church was only 300m away) and desperately tried to encourage us to attend pre-class morning prayers 🙄
We asked the "right-on" chaplain how they could justify the solid gold tabernacle which cost thousands when there was starvation in the world, etc. We got a line of complete bullshit in response.
Look around this country, look at the cathedrals built in post-famine Ireland on the backs of the desperately poor.
It's disgusting.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
4 -
An opt-in religion which controls 95% of primary schools. Pull the other one.
Who exactly was surveyed, how were they chosen, and why on earth should the delivery of taxpayer-funded public services be influenced by same
Oh and, architecturally, Galway Cathedral is an awful blight on that city.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
1 -
So give up control of the schools that church doesn't pay for. 🙄
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
3 -
"Built on the backs of the poor" You're very wrong. Has it occurred to you that a poor person doesn't want all their money to go to a machine-like survival? That that is why people who could barely afford it donated money instead of spending it on one more half-loaf. Because they wanted to be part of something larger than themselves, and then they could go in these cathedrals themselves any time they want.
Your bias is too strong imo. Galway Cathedral is not a "blight" how absurd. I doubt there is any religious building that could make you happy since you could claim the money spent on the Sistine Chapel was wasted. How do you have the energy to be so completely negative amazes me.
There's always poverty in the world so any extra expense on anything can be considered unjustified if you wanted to look at it that way.
1 -
Advertisement
-
Amen to the previous post. " Man shall not live by bread alone."
0 -
Wait now until you see the chorus of complaints from parents who want all the trappings but none of the effort!
We have taken our lads away for the week of the communion. They do next to nothing those weeks other than going in and out the church.
2 -
Don’t be daft HD, we both know that’s not going to happen, and besides, I wouldn’t want it to happen as I don’t believe any child should be deprived of the opportunity to be educated in a Catholic school, owned by the Church, and managed by volunteers of the on behalf of the Church community.
That’s why they don’t pay for the schools, but they are provided with funding from the public purse in accordance with the education services they provide, same as every other education provider in the Irish education system. I think it’s fair to say you don’t have the Church’s best interests in mind, so they aren’t likely to take your suggestion any more seriously than I take similar suggestions by some people within the Church who wish to promote that sort of exclusionary fundamentalism according to their own standards.
There are some fee-paying schools where one has the option to pay for that sort of exclusivity, but I would neither support nor encourage that sort of attitude towards other people in society. I’d prefer people who are socioeconomically deprived had access to quality education suitable for their children’s needs on the same basis as everyone else, regardless of the family’s social status.
0 -
Arguably while they’re saving the exchequer a bundle, they’re failing to uphold children’s rights to an education which is suitable for their needs.
How are they saving the exchequer a bundle? You say yourself in the post above that church-controlled schools are funded the same as the (few) others.
And yes imposing catholicism or any other religion at school is failing to uphold the rights of families not of that religion. The taxpayer should have no involvement in the subsidising or promoting of any religion - in fact the constitution expressly forbids exactly that...
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
1 -
He is working off the usual myth that because a high amount of people get baptized and a high amount of people put catholic in the census that we are a religious country. But as a practicing catholic he will know full well how people really fell when he goes to mass on Sunday in an empty goal laden auditorium.
1 -
Advertisement
-
A lot of people used to baptise their kids purely out of fear of not getting a school place, a complete disgrace that was allowed to persist for so long. Can't imagine the rates have held up since that was done away with.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
1 -
Because the DES aren’t having to fund the establishment of new schools when they can argue that the numbers of existing schools are already sufficient to meet demand. They’re clearly not especially concerned with whether or not the current system meets the needs of all children, but in order to do that, they would have to fund the establishment of more new schools than just the 400 or so that are currently in their projected plans.
Church-controlled schools are funded the same as other schools, through the Patronage system. There’s a few terms and conditions, but all patrons are subject to the same criteria.
By ‘the taxpayer’, I’m fairly certain you’re referring to the State (taxpayers can support or promote whatever they wish, nothing stopping them, the same is not true of Government handling of public funds intended to be spent on providing for public services such as education), and what the Constitution actually forbids, is the favouring of one religion over another. It’s not favouring one religion over another when patron bodies providing education are just that, irrespective of whether they’re religious or not. They’re not being funded to promote religion, they’re being funded on the basis that they are providing a service to the State, namely education.
Is he? Or is he working off figures from the Department of Education because he knows that whatever religion or none anyone puts down on the census is as irrelevant as mass attendance statistics in terms of the provision of education? I’d say he’s working off the figures from the Department of Education -
Latest Statistical Reports:
https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/055810-education-statistics/#latest-statistical-reports
Statistical Bulletin - July 2022
https://assets.gov.ie/230264/63fab8ce-a051-4004-a39a-3d4891f43833.pdf
Projections of full-time enrolment (2021 - 2040) -
https://assets.gov.ie/202698/a1d65c6a-9220-4cdd-9cb8-03b4c6b84ac9.pdf
Not sure what way the rates have changed tbh, but since it was done away with I’m not sure it’s made much of a dent in the figures given the anecdotes of parents who who are still baptising their children in later life in order for them to participate in Communion with their friends (article from 2016, two years before the Schools Admissions Act 2018 which, by itself didn’t change a whole pile either in terms of school admissions) -
https://www.thejournal.ie/sham-baptism-divestment-reasons-ceremony-2873282-Aug2016/
0 -
Only seeing it now, but the day after the Examiner's story in the OP was published, the IT (its sister paper) published an almost entirely contradictory story:
Catholic primary schools in the Archdiocese of Dublin will continue to prepare children for Communion and Confirmation under a policy aimed at placing a greater emphasis on families and the local parish in sacramental preparation.
Like I said earlier, the Dublin diocese has been talking a great game about change over the last few years, but no meaningful change ever occurs
Edit: typo
Post edited by Hotblack Desiato onFingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
0 -
Indeed. Bread alone is fierce dry without butter. Bit o' cheese wouldn't be refused either.
4 -
Are you trying to say the fact most people go to catholic schools means they are catholics ?
1 -
Who knows. It's the usual stuff more or less completely irrelevant to the post quoted.
For instance saying that "funded by the taxpayer" doesn't necessarily mean funded via taxes is taking pedantry down to a new low.
Then claiming the Constitution says something it plainly doesn't.
Or that existing schools are somehow saving the state/taxpayers (see what I did there?) money by their very existence. Ridiculous nonsense. There are X number of primary age kids in the country, we need to fund Y schools to cater for them. It would be silly indeed to fund additional schools in areas where this would cause existing schools to be under utilised, and nobody is calling for this.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
2 -
No, I’m not. I’m saying that whatever religion or none that anyone puts down on the census is as irrelevant as mass attendance statistics in terms of provision for education. What matters is bums on seats in the schools, not bums on seats in the pews, because however much funding any school receives is based upon the number of children enrolled in the school, unless the school is a DEIS school, in which case they receive extra funding on that basis.
The Board of Management will uphold the ethos of the Trustees of the school regardless, they’re required to do so by the Education Act, so the only thing which can change about the school is the number of children enrolled in the school - if there aren’t sufficient numbers of children enrolled in the school, the school is likely to close down. The opposite is also true - if there are sufficient numbers of children enrolled in the school, the school continues to receive funding on that basis, regardless of its ethos.
Your bringing up the idea that because anyones a taxpayer it gives them some right to dictate social policy, is what’s irrelevant. Whether anyone is a taxpayer or not is irrelevant to the provision of education. Your attempt is rather like the anti-immigrant types or people who look down their noses at people who are socioeconomically deprived, who imagine that because they’re taxpayers, they should be able to dictate social policy and how those people are to be treated by the State. It’s as though they imagine only they have rights and other people don’t.
Saying that as a taxpayer you can support or promote whatever you like, isn’t pedantry, it’s making the point that you obviously have an income on which you pay tax, you’d pay tax anyway on that income, but the rest of it you can use to do something like support a group which is looking for funding to establish a new school in your area, if you like. Being a taxpayer doesn’t give you any authority to dictate social policy, but you can campaign for public funding for your ideas, same as anyone else can, whether they’re a taxpayer or not, regardless of how much anyone pays in tax. That’s how ET got started for example, and now they have a number of schools dotted around the country.
On claiming the Constitution says something it doesn’t, while Article 44 is a joke to you, it’s clearly not a joke in terms of it’s application in Irish Law -
ARTICLE 44
1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.
2 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.
2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.
3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.
4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.
5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.
6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.
https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#article44
It was already determined by the Courts that public funding provided for education is not an endowment of religion, and the State is prohibited from favouring one religion over another. The same principle also applies to protect the rights of people who are not religious. It’s kinda a big deal, especially when the Dept of Education doesn’t know how to interpret it’s own guidelines for qualifying to be considered for patronage of new schools -
Giving the three-judge court's decision, Mr Justice Sean Ryan said the department's understanding of its own guidelines was "erroneous".
https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2017/0302/856785-school-patronage-secular-schools-ireland/
Good summary of the legal aspects involved in education in Ireland here (report is from 2010, but not much has changed since then) -
https://www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/download/doc/gerry_whyte_paper_on_religion_and_education.doc
It’s clear that the DES are saving the exchequer (whether anyone is a taxpayer or not is irrelevant), a bundle by claiming that it’s not necessary to establish new schools in areas where there is already school places available in existing schools. However, this argument gives no recognition to the fact that it is not upholding children’s right to an education which is suitable for their needs.
Your argument amounts to calling for all children to be deprived of their right to an education which is suitable for their needs, on the basis that your children are being deprived of their right to an education which is suitable for their needs (and you’re a taxpayer… not that it actually matters), whereas my argument amounts to calling for more diversity in education in order that children’s right to an education which is suitable for their needs is upheld by the State.
Contrary to your belief that funding additional schools and existing schools would mean existing schools would continue to exist and be under-utilised, what would happen is that any school which didn’t have sufficient numbers of children enrolled in the school would simply close down, because they would no longer require or receive public funding or resources from the DES given that there isn’t sufficient demand in the area for their services.
It’s clear from numerous surveys of parents that there is a sufficient demand for alternatives to Catholic education, but the DES and Government continues to ignore this demand, and continues to ignore their obligations to uphold the rights of all children, and continues to ignore the demand for greater investment in education, because taxpayers like your good self would have a fannyfit at the notion of what it might cost them personally. That’s why, while the demand exists, there aren’t too many people are willing to see Government spend public funds on the idea of upholding children’s right to an education which is suitable for their needs. Understandably, and unsurprisingly, people appear to be more concerned with putting themselves and their own needs above the needs of other people in Irish society… imagining that because they pay taxes this gives them a say in public policy.
Generally I tend to ignore people who espouse those sorts of ideas, they’re rarely ever sincere in their beliefs, it’s just about arguing that other people should be deprived of their human rights. Basing the legitimacy of their argument on the idea that they pay taxes is generally a good indicator of their motivation. In your case HD, the “taxpayer” argument is just clutching at straws, which is why I’ll always give you the benefit of the doubt that the rest of your arguments at least, are based on your genuinely held beliefs about the education system in Ireland.
0 -
Your bringing up the idea that because anyones a taxpayer it gives them some right to dictate social policy, is what’s irrelevant. Whether anyone is a taxpayer or not is irrelevant to the provision of education. Your attempt is rather like the anti-immigrant types or people who look down their noses at people who are socioeconomically deprived, who imagine that because they’re taxpayers, they should be able to dictate social policy and how those people are to be treated by the State. It’s as though they imagine only they have rights and other people don’t.
You're away with the fairies here.
I never said any such thing.
Everyone is a taxpayer.
The battle for control is not between taxpayers and non-taxpayers (who don't exist) it's between the public and the entrenched religious patrons who reject all change even as they soak all of us for the funds to promote their religion using public services.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
3 -
You're dreaming if you think the majority of parents want change in this area. Especially around Communion + confirmation.
The parents may not want to be active God botherers themselves.
But the majority definitely do want their kids to have the (cash generating) special days.
And I suspect that fundamentally a lot do still want the kids to have the religious teaching. Contradictory though their own personal behaviour might be. If they didn't, then we would see a far bigger push for either Educate Togethers or for truly atheist/agnostic schools.
1 -
That’s an admirable amount of wrangling going on in your post 😁
You brought up the whole idea of taxpayers by way of suggesting that they should somehow be able to dictate how public funds are spent. I’m not going to bother arguing over whether or not everyone’s a taxpayer as that’s besides the point.
There’s no battle either between the public and entrenched religious patrons who provide services such as education to the public, on behalf of the State, and receive funding on that basis to do so. In order for them to be deprived of public funding, it would require a change in the Constitution, and the corollary effect of that would be to deprive all patron bodies in education of public funding, which just isn’t a runner.
The DES knows this, the Minister for Education knows this, the Government knows this, and the State knows this… it’s why Ireland keeps thumbing it’s nose at the UN who have been calling for more diversity in the Irish education system for some time now -
https://www.teachdontpreach.ie/2022/07/un-again-tells-ireland/
0 -
Advertisement
-
You brought up the whole idea of taxpayers by way of suggesting that they should somehow be able to dictate how public funds are spent.
It's called democracy. Of course we all should have a say in what our taxes fund.
Instead we hand vast sums over to unelected, unaccountable legacy religious patrons to discriminate against kids every day from age 4.
At least the patrons appointed in recent years had to go through a selection process involving local parents.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
4 -
You are correct what they really need to learn is how to survive in the modern era how to deal with bullies how to make eye contact and speak to another human beings how to be a good human & the 5 C's
Courtesy, Charity Conscience Courage and Character. Teaching the meanings of these five C's would be a very good basis in education. As to knowing the capital of anywhere Prof Google is the man for that.
1 -
Having a say in how public money is spent has nothing to do with being a taxpayer? Anyone, whether or not they’re a taxpayer, is entitled to representation in Government, which makes decisions on their behalf, including how public money should be used to fund public services such as education. That’s how representative democracy functions.
That’s why ‘we’ don’t hand over anything to anyone. Instead, public money is used to provide for services to the public, and not to discriminate against 4 year olds, but to provide for education. Whether patrons providing education are religious or not is irrelevant, they’re not a democracy.
The process involves local parents, it doesn’t mean that the parents preference will automatically determine the patron who is awarded patronage of any new schools, clearly, and while parents are encouraged to participate in the school community, that doesn’t mean they dictate school policies, because schools aren’t a democracy either.
That’s why the Trustees of any schools, in this case the Archdiocese of Dublin, is perfectly within their right to decide to move preparation for the sacraments out of their schools, and make it more community based, in order to encourage greater parental involvement, because they’ve been aware for years now that parents are perfectly happy to leave it to Catholic schools to prepare their children for Communion.
0 -
You're completely avoiding the problem, which is the legacy stranglehold the churches have over 95% of our primary education system.
WRT your last paragraph, are they actually going to do this or is it just more talk from them? Examiner and IT seem to think differently.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
2 -
That’s why ‘we’ don’t hand over anything to anyone. Instead, public money is used to provide for services to the public, and not to discriminate against 4 year olds, but to provide for education. Whether patrons providing education are religious or not is irrelevant, they’re not a democracy.
Fact: We vote for representative government
Fact: Our government, as currently constructed, is "following the letter of the law" allowing the criminal enterprise known as the RCC to dictate how taxpayer funds are used to provide support for RCC mandated events (communions) by providing indoctrination in school facilities.
Fact: One arm of the Enterprise is recommending handling those events differently - for whatever their reasons, they want to move this out of schools and into Enterprise facilities, possibly for nefarious reasons (more kids around priests has been problematic in the past) or their dissatisfied with the level of indoctrination provided by the schools.
If in fact we (the Irish taxpayer) continue to pay for this indoctrination when it's provided entirely at Enterprise facilities, that'd be something that arguably should be stopped - the law may say "provide for religious education" but 1) the writers of the Constitution meant RCC education 2) Providing for religious education could be as simple as allowing students to end their day early to journey to the indoctrination centers, without any funds flowing from the taxpayer to the Criminal Enterprise known as the RCC.
Are there going to be continued payments to the RCC to provide this indoctrination? The news article I read wasn't clear on that, if so, that's abhorrent and arguably unconstitutional - funds spent there, for example, might not be made available for Flying Spaghetti Monster indoctrination, should it apply to the Government for support and have students that wish to avail of it.
0 -
I’m not avoiding what’s a problem for you. I’ve acknowledged that it’s your problem. I don’t agree with your proposed solution to your problem.
The reason I’m saying it’s your problem, is because I don’t have an issue with the Catholic Church being involved in education in Ireland. You do, clearly. I’m suggesting that more choice for parents in education would mean that the State is doing what it’s supposed to do which is to support parents or guardians in the education of their own children, in accordance with their parents values, beliefs and world views and so on.
All you appear to want to do is put Catholics in the position you’re in now, a sort of role reversal, at least that’s how it appears, but I’m asking myself ‘surely not?’
As for whether the Archdiocese is going to go through with it or not, I honestly don’t know. Like I said earlier it’s been floating around for the last 10 years, but I don’t know of any Catholic schools are doing it already. I know some people organise preparatory classes together outside school because it suits everyone involved, but ain’t too many of those about.
Apart from the first statement, which is indeed a fact - we do vote for representative Government, the rest of it kinda went off the rails into the vacuum of polemics.
On the last question though about continued payments to the RCC, well I expect so, but on the question of funds spent there and the idea of those funds then not being available for FSM indoctrination? Well that’s one of the cute things about public funds being used to provide for public services to the public - if FSM qualifies as a recognised patron body, they’re eligible for funding on the exact same basis as the criminal enterprise known only by you, as the RCC. It’s what a Government Budget is for, and boy is there plenty of “I don’t want my taxes funding their lifestyle” types in that thread 🙄
’Twould make you wonder just what percentage of €100Bn annually do they imagine is made up of their taxes, exactly? And what percentage of that do they then imagine is spent by Government on public services such as education, healthcare and welfare, y’know? That’s why individuals who imagine their taxes give them a say in how the country is run, should never be entertained.
0 -
Your 5 C's are your values.
But are the really accepted values for everyone? Who says? My take on them is:
Courtesy - plenty of people don't actually value this at allCharity - doing stuff for free is a pretty strongly held value in Ireland. But charity can also mean assumign the best intentions of the other, and I'm not sure that's a shared value.Conscience - nah, not a strong value here from what I've observed.Courage - are you having a laugh? Kids here are told off for being "bold" (which is what courage really means) in this country. Bravery not valued at allCharacter- what does that even mean? I really have no idea.But really, that's just my take. It's irrelevant - until we both have kids who need to be educated in the same place. At that point, someone needs to decide whose value-set takes precedence.
0 -
In fairness to the RCC you have to (on some level) admire the success of the grooming and recruitment process of young people into the organization.
While some of these have changed and more will in time they yielded unparalleled participation rates for decades
- Making christening a stipulation of access to eduction.
- Making Communion and confirmation mandatory at a young age with levels of peer pressure and outcast from the community for not conforming, and rewarding the unsuspecting conscript with balls of cash!
- Establishing fear and subservience towards the local clergy by forcing kids into confession.
- Having strict rules on how and when to sit and stand to ensure compliance with the church
- Talking a great game about the poor and downtrodden while sending suitcase after suitcase of cash to rome!
If you were to sit down and design a recruitment strategy you would be hard presses to come up with better.
7 -
Don't forget, shielding members from prosecution for heinous crimes by the local governments.
3 -
Advertisement
-
All you appear to want to do is put Catholics in the position you’re in now, a sort of role reversal, at least that’s how it appears, but I’m asking myself ‘surely not?’
Sacramental preparation is not education. It should never have been allowed to take place during the school day in any school receiving public funds.
The solution is obvious and it's what minority religion families, and catholic families with children in ETs, have been doing for decades. Religious instruction led by the parish, not the school.
Schools should be for everyone and treat everyone equally and fairly. This is not compatible with religious "ethos" as it is currently practised, where those who are "not us" are, at best, tolerated.
The very last thing we should be doing is introducing yet more sectarian segregation into our education system.
Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.
7
