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Winter 2022-23 - General Discussion

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,249 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    Even when conditions are favourable and a frost is promised, you can be almost 100% sure that an inexplicable bank of cloud will pop up out of nowhere in the evening and remain there until early to mid morning, ensuring a solid prevention of any hope of a frost.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,167 ✭✭✭✭M.T. Cranium


    The synoptics we are getting this week would be ideal for snow in late November or December, hope that it repeats then. All components too mild at this point of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭Niall145


    More likely we'll probably just have the exact same weather as now (temps in the low teens and cloudy) except with winds from a different direction!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,375 ✭✭✭pad199207


    Temperatures into the teens sounds good if we are definitely not going to get decent cold and snow!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭esposito


    Yeah but not on Christmas Day. Want it feeing seasonable. I’d even take a Polar maritime NW’y for the big day.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭almostthere12


    A dry winter and fairly mild but with 3 weeks of snow in March!!!

    Well that's what the english version of the Donegal postman is predicting.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,091 ✭✭✭Dickie10


    does anyone here remember or have data for Christmas Day 2008? i vaguely remember it being very dry ,sunny and mild around 12 degrees at 1 pm was this the correct year i am thinking of? surely the most un christmassy day ever for dec 25th?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭esposito


    Cant remember the day itself. I think you could have the wrong year though as the days after it up until new year were quite cold and foggy. Probably 2007 you were thinking.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,747 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    The vast majority of Christmas Days I can remember since 2005 have mostly been mild or very mild, generally 8 to 13C, some were mild and sunny, others were mild and cloudy or mild and wet. Christmas Day 2004 is one of two Christmas days that stands out to me as we did have some wet snow that day which gave a temporary covering of about 6cm. The other is of course during the December to remember in 2010 where 20 to 30cm of snow covered the ground on Christmas Day 2010 before the thaw set in the next day. I can't remember Christmas Day 2008 but it was most likley mild in the double figures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,131 ✭✭✭✭sryanbruen


    Rather than starting the (seemingly) annual stratospheric watch thread now, I thought I'd post it here instead as it is relevant to winter.

    In case you've been living under a rock or you are new here, please find the information below which I have copied and pasted from previous posts because there is no better way I can explain it.

    The earth's atmosphere is divided into different layers. The troposphere is where weather occurs and the stratosphere is just above the troposphere. Much like the weather around the earth, the stratospheric temperature varies by season with it reaching its lowest point in December on average. Each autumn, a phenomena known as the stratospheric polar vortex forms within the Arctic Circle. This is an upper-level area of low pressure formed by the temperature difference between the equator and the pole. The vortex weakens and strengthens from year to year via dynamic events like stratospheric warming or the annual summer hibernation where the SPV "goes to sleep" due to a lower temperature gradient between the equator and the pole. The SPV is well defined when it's strong with a single vortex lying within the Arctic Circle.


    Normally, the troposphere and stratosphere are in sync with each other which results in downwelling. This is when planetary waves are propagated to either level of the atmosphere via the weather patterns that occur. For example, an Aleutian Low (low pressure over or around Alaska) / Scandinavian High (high pressure over Scandinavia) combination can be a sign of disrupting the Polar Vortex and a precursor to a SSW event as a result. Another example is that with a cold stratosphere and healthy SPV, the North Atlantic jet stream is powered up bringing mild and moist conditions to western Europe with low pressure centred over Iceland. Tropospheric patterns that can have an impact on the SPV are defined by zonal wavenumbers which basically refer to the amount of ridges and troughs within a full circle around the globe at a given latitude like zonal wavenumber-1 refers to 1 ridge and 1 trough for example.


    There are different types of warming that occur and can have different degrees of impacts on the weather around the Northern Hemisphere if a tropospheric response occurs.


    There is a minor stratospheric warming which involves the stratospheric temperature rising but less dramatically compared to a major warming and the zonal mean zonal winds do not reverse.


    major sudden stratospheric warming involves the zonal mean zonal winds at 60°N 10 hPa in the stratosphere to reverse from westerly to easterly. The SPV is completely disrupted and it will either be split into two or more vortices OR displaced from its normal location over the North Pole. Major SSW events are forced by tropospheric patterns disturbing the SPV but sometimes, these events can propagate back down into the troposphere and result in anomalously blocked patterns which gives a higher chance of colder weather for Europe. However, even if a SSW downwells successfully into the troposphere, the positioning of the blocking is a factor to consider also.


    Cohen and Jones (2011) did a good paper on tropospheric precursors and categorising past SSW events into splits and displacements here, it's free access to everybody.


    Met Éireann highlighted previous Irish cold spells and if a SSW could have caused them in their Storm Emma paper here.


    Other warming events that occur include final warming events which indicate the transition into stratospheric summer hibernation mode and typically happen during the months of April and May but have occurred in March before, and Canadian warming events which occur earlier in the winter.

    Currently as of writing this post on the 1st of October 2022, there is the prospect for a weakening of the SPV through the next week as indicated by the reduction in zonal mean zonal winds at 60N 10hPa below. However, the variation at this time of year is small and it is unlikely to cause much impacts on the weather patterns. We've seen significant disruptions to the SPV in autumn 2016 and recently October 2021.

    Early significant stratospheric warming or disruption events "can" lead to blocking early on in winter BUT much of the time the significance is insignificant (pardon the pun) and in fact can allow the SPV to intensify by winter time. This is due to the fact that radiative cooling is strongest in winter and warming limits or cuts off further wave activity to occur from the trop to the strat. We saw this happen in both of the years I mentioned above - much of winter 2016-17 had a strong SPV with the one exception being late January when a significant warming did occur but wasn't quite a major warming as the zonal winds did not reverse at 10hPa 60N whilst 2021-22 had a consistently strong SPV throughout with very little disruption; similar to 2019-20 but not quite the same intensification as that infamous winter.

    Just wanted to get that out there as I've seen some suggest this stratospheric warming that's likely to occur in the second week of October could affect our winter down the line in terms of blocking which as far as I'm concerned is pure hyperbolic nonsense.

    image.png


    Photography site - https://sryanbruenphoto.com/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭Orion402


    " The vortex weakens and strengthens from year to year via dynamic events like stratospheric warming or the annual summer hibernation where the SPV "goes to sleep" due to a lower temperature gradient between the equator and the pole. The SPV is well defined when it's strong with a single vortex lying within the Arctic Circle."

    This is like saying the Sun "goes to sleep" every night and entirely at variance with the cause found in the dynamics surrounding the North/South poles within a global perspective.

    The North pole has presently turned roughly 10 degrees into the dark hemisphere of the Earth since the September Equinox so on the December Solstice, the radius between North pole to the planet's divisor is 2,550 km thereby creating a surface area where the Sun is out of view of about 20,000,000 km2 or 4% of the Earth's surface where solar radiation is absent. All these values have to be worked out in detail based on the motion of the poles parallel to the orbital plane as the entire surface turns to the central Sun as a function of the orbital motion of the Earth.

    It is not possible to show the North polar region for obvious reasons, however, the South pole station provides the necessary time lapse where the effects of the surface rotation as a function of orbital motion is clearly visible as the Sun starts to turn out of view around the March Equinox-



    This is an opportunity to approach zonal flows with a more precise technical view and cyclical weather (The Seasons) are a property of a moving Earth in a Sun-centred system.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    We will as always take what comes... having been well prepared and informed of all possibilities.. Fuel and food stocks in etc..

    With thanks to all contributors to awareness and possibilities.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 26,271 Mod ✭✭✭✭Loughc


    And so it begins the media hyperbole begins.

    I fully expect sunshine and above average temperatures this Christmas so



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭esposito




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭Nabber


    Azores high will rule this winter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 194 ✭✭odyboody


    Highly scientific reasoning here.

    We are getting screwed with the energy prices, therefor its bound to be a bitter winter



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 26,271 Mod ✭✭✭✭Loughc


    I'm surprised they didn't go to the postman for his expert opinion like most years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭esposito


    Does the Donegal postman still give his predictions? Haven’t seen them in 3 or 4 years.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 26,271 Mod ✭✭✭✭Loughc


    He was 0-10 with correct predictions as well.

    Safe to say the postman never delivered.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    Just reading that and it occurred to me that anyone under 18 probably doesn't remember that unreal freeze of 2010. Where are the years going???



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,747 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Anyone under the age of 18 only has 2018 as a reference for proper measureable snow. Anyone under the age of 7 probably has no memories of making a snowball or snowman as they would have been too young for the 2018 event. Hopefully that will change this winter with 1 day of measureable snow across the country.



  • Posts: 634 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,747 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    We usually get a light temporary dusting once per winter but you can't make snowballs or snowmen with those. We need an easterly based freeze up for proper snow in this part of Ireland. The Atlantic rarely delivers for snow in Meath but it did one night around January 2018.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 26,271 Mod ✭✭✭✭Loughc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,347 ✭✭✭snowstreams


    I framed a few 2018 snow photos with my then 2 year old in an igloo. Ive put them up on the wall near the dinner table so he will never forget the snow that year.

    We got a good fall of snow in 2021 here in Athenry, it was still nothing compared to Emma in 2018. He was asking why I didnt make an igloo in 21 & is looking forward to a 2018 repeat for his chance to make another one. He could be waiting a while!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Lucreto


    An unusually mild winter according to France.

    Probably just the usual for us.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 26,271 Mod ✭✭✭✭Loughc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,954 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Loe the way they say 'forecasters' have predicted, but dont name them and then causally drop a completely unrelated official met forecast in, and they only ones quoted are bookies 😃



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    My first winter out here.. we had snow. I built a snowman on my drive .... Not sure what year.



This discussion has been closed.
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