Is WHS fit for purpose

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120180908#Comment_120180908

Stableford is a form of strokeplay. Just like Max Score and V-Par. For handicap purposes, they're all exactly the same. If you exceed net double bogey, you still get net double bogey in your handicap calculation regardless of your actual score on that hole. Your point about getting more people through the course with stableford doesn't stand up unless your club changes the time sheet intervals when you're playing a medal.

Jimbee

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186046#Comment_120186046

Traditionally if you shoot 20 on a hole it counts in stroke play tournament. Before the WHS you would get 0.1 back on your hcp. Since the WHS started they no longer count that 20 on the hole max triple bogey.

So to say that stableford is a form of strokeplay is really not the the case. When your extra shots carry all the way through the 18holes, blowing up on a hole doesn't matter. In strokeplay you have to take your medicine to protect your score.

The point I made about money, strokeplay is slower especially when golfers are in the habit of playing stableford golf. So 10 min intervals don't mean anything when you have groups holding up the course. It's not unusual for scratch cups to be 5hrs rounds. I'm looking at the WHS as a whole and I'm not a fan.

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120193556#Comment_120193556

Not technically correct.

max is net double bogey. So if you have no shots on the hole it’s max double bogey. If it’s the index 18 and you are off +1 it’s max bogey. If it’s index 1 and you are off 37, it’s max +5.

this was exactly the same under congu. There is no change to this rule under WHS

so shooting a 20 on a hole didn’t necessarily get .1 back. Your score was capped on that hole and you could do well enough on other holes to get back in buffer for no change, or even better and get cut

and it is a stated fact that stableford is a form of strokeplay

Ivefoundgod

Not sure I'd agree that we primarily play Stableford in Ireland, maybe depends on the player and the club but vast majority of the comps I play in are stroke play not stableford. All majors, monthly medals etc. are strokes where I play. Theres plenty of stableford comps during the year allright but they wouldn't have as many entrants generally and prizes would be smaller. I don't think any of them count for our player of the year points either. I'd have thought thats largely the same in most nearby courses anyway.

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120194044#Comment_120194044

i would be amazed if any club has more strokes comps than stableford. We would have a lot in my club, but probably none over the winter months maybe 2-4 per month rest of the year. When you have comps 5 days a week, even 4 a month is feck all.

also you would always find it easier to get on the tee sheet for a strokes comp which suggests that fewer people play them

Ivefoundgod

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120194195#Comment_120194195

Fair points, i hadn't thought of mid week comps as I don't ever play those really but i wouldn't be including winter months given its non counting pretty much everywhere. Strokes would be truly pointless given the number of random lost balls due to the weather.

As I said I think it depends on the club and the player but i certainly notice the opposite at my club in terms of getting a tee time, medals and majors are more popular than stableford, quick glance at master scoreboard confirms that those comps have more entries than the subsequent stableford comps though I haven't checked every competition. I wouldn't dispute that there are more stableford competitions but I'd argue stroke play is the standard game in Ireland for any 'big' competition.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120193556#Comment_120193556

You've completely missed the point I was making. You're looking at the competition results which (correctly) includes all the shots in strokeplay and discards anything above nett double bogey in stableford. But both are looked at the same way for handicap calculation. Anything above nett double bogey is counted as nett double bogey when the handicap calculation is carried out.

I see Seve has already made these points. I'll just add that your point about money and time on the course could just as easily have been made about CONGU. It has nothing to do with the handicap system.

bakerbhoy

No

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/world-handicap-system-club-competitions/

Interesting view

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195169#Comment_120195169

"Across the pond, posting every score is a requirement unless you declare you’re not going to beforehand (by saying it’s a practice round, for instance). It’s built into the culture of how golf is played in the United States.

We’re the complete opposite. We instinctively feel golf is a social game."

I had to stop reading there because that's probably the complete reverse of reality, is it not?

mjsc1970

No

Hard to know tbh, maybe somewhere in between. And depends on the demographics within your club.

For me, anything outside of the main club competition day Saturday is purely casual and social. Even the the hole summer Wednesday singles, which is counting, has a more social approach by the membership, in my club, and it's more about getting out to play golf on a school day and enjoying the craic after. Not as serious as Saturday, still counting for handicap though. And people are free to care or not care on how this affects your WHS. I've got to the point if not really caring.

The old system is gone unfortunately. The new one is in and I think it's all swings and roundabouts. It is what it is.

Id hate to have to put in a counting score for any casual rounds outside of a competition though. I'd think that would take the joy out of a game for me.

spacecoyote

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195224#Comment_120195224

That was exactly what I thought, American golf to me appears to be primarily casual golf, gimmes, etc...

I know he's writing from an England perspective, but I would have thought UK clubs were similar in approach to Ireland?

Russman

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195169#Comment_120195169

Its an interesting piece alright, but IMHO it goes completely against the culture of golf here in Ireland and presumably the UK too. If we were to go his route, there'd be no sneaky 6/9 holes after work on a quiet Thursday, maybe playing two balls or dropping a few balls around a green and doing some chipping etc. If, and I'm still not 100% clear, he's suggesting that our established way of playing and approaching golf should change just so we can be shoehorned into essentially the American system, I think that will never work. Its pure "cart before the horse" territory IMO. I think prior to WHS, we had long realised that competition scores are a totally different animal to general play ones. Anyone can rock up and shoot 23pts for 9 holes with their buddies on a Friday night, put a card and pencil in their pocket the next day and its a different matter.

The approach to golf in the states is very different from what I've seen the few times I've played over there. Its more of an almost rare or precious commodity and you make the most of it when you can get it. ie count your score. There doesn't seem to be the "club" side of things to the extent that there is here. Admittedly its a small sample size but that was just the vibe I got.

I get the logic of his point that someone with a lot more recent scores will probably have a more accurate index, but that could cut both ways depending on where your counting scores sit in your record. I mean I haven't touched a club in nearly 3 months for various reasons (injury, COVID, weather) and it could be another month or more before I do - will I be able to play to my index when I return ? I'd say highly unlikely for a month or so at least. I have several non counting rounds to drop off before any of my best 8 come into play, so my index won't increase for a while.

I like WHS, I possibly/probably prefer it to CONGU, but don't really care enough either way, the system is what it is. I genuinely think a lot of our issues with it are that we're so conditioned for decades to think of handicap as being how someone is capable of playing rather than how they are actually playing in their last 20 games.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120195169#Comment_120195169

I think he's taking the 'plural of anecdote equals data' to an extreme. He's based his entire thesis on his own experience and then called it a problem and produced a solution that even by his own anecdotal evidence won't actually fix what is essentially his problem.

He's not playing enough golf to have a handicap indicative of his ability or even his current form. His solution is to force everyone to put in more GP scores even though he admits that he hasn't played much golf in any form in the last four or five months. And wasn't playing much before that either.

The majority of golf played in my club is competition golf. And everything else is essentially what Russman describes. We get some GP scores, but the majority are from five day members who can't or don't want to play at the weekend. The other aspect he leaves out is opens. A lot of people in Ireland travel around to play other courses in open comps. Not sure if that's the case in the UK, but it's very strong here. And that adds a lot of midweek options for people.

TL;DR: A solution shoehorned onto a made up problem.

bakerbhoy

No

We do see and do golf in a different manner on this side of the Atlantic.

I agree with posters here around our casual rounds be it on our own or buddies playing skins etc.

It (Whs) will evolve over the coming years as in a new culture will emerge around competitio.

Where? I haven't a clue.

Seve OB

No

@Russman there is no reason why there can’t be a sneaky 6 or 7 holes or dropping 2 balls in his scenario. We can still practice.

I guess poster above said it correctly, yer man doesn’t have enough current cards submitting so thinks we should all be putting in more scores to reflect current ability and in theory that’s a great idea. But let’s be honest, how many of us actually go out and play lots of casual golf that we could submit extra scores? Not many I would say as most golf we play in this country as club members is competitive. I know I’m lucky that my club has about 5 different comps a wee and some clubs don’t have much midweek options so there would be a few golfers who don’t have much opportunity to play the weekend competition, but I would imagine the percentage would be quite low.

so how much extra golf can we submit to keep our HI current? Not a lot really I would say. I mean I basically never go out and play 9 or 18 holes unless it’s a competition. But we should be submitting all of our society scores and I guess they will start looking at fourball scores. I know around the world, even if you are playing better ball comps you must submit your own score for HI purposes, and it was one point WHS made that would be looked at here in future. I guess another way manipulating can be done though

other than that I guess there has to be some sort of calculation that could be brought in for winter golf. I mean, he wants us to submit scores to keep our HI current hit for nearly 6 months of the year it’s not possible. So why not have an easier winter slope for when placing is in place? I know I played brutal last year but over winter I steadied the ship. 3 rounds of 13 is all I’ve played so far this year and I’ve come 1st, 2nd and probably about 10th. Game is great, but handicap is wrong!

and then you have the yanks who are unreal with gimmes and mulligans and the aul foot wedge. We certainly don’t want that crap here

Russman

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197823#Comment_120197823

You're right, we can still practice, but I think he mentioned something about having to declare that you're not counting the round, as opposed to now having to declare that you are counting it (or maybe it was in a different post above somewhere). Just seems a bit backwards tbh. Obviously its purely personal choice, but I don't want to have to log in to declare my 9 holes on a summer evening as non-counting or whatever phrase would be used. OK its not a major inconvenience, but then its not such a big jump to "........sure of course he's winning, he's up here every night playing and never puts in a card, he should be 3 shots lower if he put in his cards, he's clearly playing well..." Not that I'm ever in a position to be up every evening or anything close to it, but I'm lucky that most Fridays I can finish at 3pm and if I go for a few holes I don't want to feel like I should be counting a score or wondering should I fill out a card.

I agree with most of the rest of your post - yer man is clearly using his own situation to maybe unfairly skew his view. I think he's trying to superimpose the US system or mentality onto the GB&I situation and its very much a square peg into a round hole. As you say, for basically 6 months of the year most of us here can't get "proper" golf anyway. I'm not sure the winter slope idea would work, it seems like an awful lot of work in setting it up - I know in my club there would be several routings of holes that would be used depending on conditions, giving "courses" of anything from 9 to 15 holes. We'd even go from a tee box on our 12th hole to the green on the 14th in winter time.

Personally my own take on winter golf is that its so far removed from the real thing its almost irrelevant to their WHS index - I know that probably won't be popular. Forward tees & placing everywhere, for me, makes scoring just random and certainly masks bad driving.

I dunno, maybe it should be time limited rather than number of rounds, like best 8 of your last two months or best 40% of your last two months rounds or something rather than best 8 of last 20 which could go back months and months. I don't really think it'd work though.

Actually think this piece makes a bit of sense..... https://www.stewartgolf.co.uk/blogs/main/the-problem-with-handicaps

thewobbler

Yes

I don’t honestly believe it would be a taxing calculation to work out an adjusted slope on any winter competition, regardless of the course configuration, regardless of the winter rules in place. Remove the top 10% and bottom 10% and take an average of the rest, and you won’t be far away.

As long as all competitors are teeing off from the same place and putting out, then the key variables are taken care off.

But it would take an adjustment in understanding from members; that the process might be slightly different but the outcome is actually the same - type numbers into a computer and your handicap adjusts - so adjust your mindset accordingly.

Non competitive rounds in winter counting though? No chance. There’s never going to be enough traffic completing the same number of holes, with the same rules in play, for a “standard score” to be achievable.

——

Confronting this is a couple of things.

Winter golf isn’t the same thing. I mean it’s loosely the same. But the shorter courses and the increased opportunities to turn a bad lie into a good one, lends itself to more erratic golfers shooting a big score.

And no matter how attractive you make it in terms of competition, there’s a strong cohort of members just won’t play in the winter. So their handicaps come November will be their handicaps again come March. Which I’ve no bones about, but there’ll be people queuing up on both sides to claim the other side aren’t doing it right.

There’s no right answer I suppose. Handicapping is brilliant. But it’s not perfect and not can it be.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120199454#Comment_120199454

Just on the winter slopes thing. In theory it makes sense because of the varying conditions, but in practice would be impossible. I say that because getting a course rated at the moment, just on normal tees is an exercise in frustration. I've been waiting two years now to have a set of tees rated for women.

bakerbhoy

No

Quick analysis of Fri open at my home course.

Div 1...15 male golfers

8 made 36 pts or better

2 at 42

Div 2...29 male golfers

8 made 36 pts or better

1 at 44 and 2 at 40

Div 3... 14 male golfers

2 made 36 pts or better

1 at 40.

Placing in play...

18 out of 58 made handicap or better.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120200774#Comment_120200774

So less than a third beat their handicap even with being able to tee their ball up on the fairway on a shorter course.

bakerbhoy

No

Yes. And a higher % of better golfers.

Linear progression.

mjsc1970

No

Ok 9 hole course here. Placing on mats on fairways, play as it lies elsewhere. Short links.

Yesterday's comp Id 21pts (HI 5,) and not mapped. One of our plus guys was 5 under. Not mapped in the comp either

But its winter golf and decent weather. Another week 20pts might clean up if weather cat.

Dunno what this says as regards WHS. No idea

coillcam

I'm still relatively new to the game so I'm kinda still on the fence tbh. I like to see my graph and numbers. It's also cool because I know if I shoot 3x rounds of XX I can make single figures or drop my HC by 2-3 shots etc.

Generally, all I hear is the same grumble in my club: if you're a "real" golfer, you've no chance to win anything. A "real" golfer isn't defined but anecdotally seems to be those around a 10-ish handicap or lower. I'd argue there are plenty of real golfers playing bogey golf. The biggest number of overall winners in our club would be probably in the 14-22hc range. I guess that's a MASSIVE % of our membership vs 2-10hc or 23-30hc ranges for example. The biggest group will statistically always have the biggest number of winners over time.

Having the different divisions/categories really helps but there are always grumbles about the overall winners when a higher index or big points return snags it. Over the course of the year 5-10 golfers are going to shoot absolute worldies or a PB and you can't do much about that. Fair play to them but golfers are always going to grumble. You will also get the odd outlier and mid-high hc improvers that are on a downward trajectory.

Any practical suggestions or improvements for WHS calculation or dealing with competition scoring? Or what is the goal you'd have? Is it just the big number returns or bandits?