Is WHS fit for purpose

Seve OB

There is enough chatter on the other threads so try keep this one a simple yes or no.

some people like the new system, others don’t, while some think it’s good but could be better if tweaked.

but for this question, just answer yes or no as to WHS in its current state.

FixdePitchmark

No

Moved

PARlance

No

Voted no.

BUT... It's a decent system. It's just that it's not fit for golf in Ireland.

Russman

Yes

I’ve genuinely mixed opinions but voted yes as the average nett score across the categories is almost equal now and that’s pretty much what it’s objective was.

callaway92

No

No. It’s too easy to manipulate your handicap without any issue

I’m could hypothetically go from 8.1 to 15.0 within 8 rounds of Golf played over X amount of days without paying a cent to do so

There has to be a limit on handicap gained per calendar year but also some sort of a weighted system too - I’m just not sure of the best formula but this can’t be it currently

In the perfect world, I like the idea of the average of your best 8 of your last 20 rounds though

Mantis Toboggan

Yes

Yes, much better reflection of your current level of golf. Much more transparent also.

RoadRunner

No

The higher statistical variance of high handicappers means with a large group of cat 4 golfers competing in competitions they dominate the top positions in competition every time. Currently it's not right for for cat1 golfers to compete directly against cat4 in our place. A change to either WHS or regular competition format is required. I've no interclub experience in last few years, so I may be jumping to conclusions, but I imagine WHS makes an utter joke out of interclub too.

billy3sheets

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119563070#Comment_119563070

But there are limits on handicap gained in a year under WHS. Soft cap at 3 followed by hard cap at 5.

Rikand

Yes

i expect to be in the minority with this but yes

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566209#Comment_119566209

It's definitely a problem. Even after 2 years, there is still a clear lack of understanding as to how WHS operates.

Not Callaways fault. Its the fault of GolfIreland and whoever else who is not getting the point across properly

blackbox

Yes

It's not perfect but it is much better than the previous system.

slingerz

No

No for me. In CONGU high handicappers increased by 0.1 but a cut would be in increments of 0.4/0.3. The WHS has a similar reduction as to increase. That is a failing of it for me

lettuce97

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566376#Comment_119566376

I think the issue is that the 0.1 was the same for all categories (ignoring the difference in buffer), but cuts were more aggressive for higher handicaps.

I would've thought this was the perfect way of balancing the fact that higher handicaps are much more erratic, and for me is the biggest failing of the new system.

callaway92

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566209#Comment_119566209

That’s not good enough imo

GreeBo

Ìts fit for purpose, it does exactly what its designed to do, however I think its the wrong purpose, it shouldnt be trying to give everyone 36 points most of the time, you should have to play well to have 36 points and most people dont play well most of the time.

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119566889#Comment_119566889

36 would give you a decent reduction in your handicap though 19 times out of 20. 34 points is the standard scratch in general

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119567046#Comment_119567046

Where are you getting that from? and are you talking CONGU?

34 wasnt C/sSS in my course anyway!

KevH1984

Yes

I don't think the WHS is perfect but I think it works pretty well and all of my regular playing partners would agree. The thing I like about it is that it reflects the current state of your golf. If you go through a bad period then your handicap is reflected accordingly, can't say fairer than that. I took a walk in my handicap from almost 1 last year out to 4 purely due to a very bad period of golf. My ego took a hit but the handicap was correct as that was the level of golf I was playing at the time. Slowly coming back down now thankfully as the golf has improved but certainly for me I've found that the system works and works fairly.

spacecoyote

No

Pros

• Gives a fair reflection of someone's golf, if they are competing genuinely
• Allows input of casual rounds
• Gives me some focus on my off days to get the best score I can, in case i need it at some later date
• Can reward improving golfers more quickly

Cons

• Hard and soft caps are way too high
• Significantly more open to manipulation
• Can disincentivise improving, especially with newer or more casual golfers as your handicap will just swing out till you score better, rather than making you improve to score better
• Creating animosity in clubs with some lower guys not feeling they can compete in club comps. Feels like it's watering down the value of majors
• Winning scores becoming crazy in numerous clubs
• PCC calc not serving its purpose (I know this is being addressed)

Yes

I can only speak from my own experience, but as someone who has just come back to golf since Covid I love the new system. My handicap in April of this year was 23 and as of this morning it's 13.5. So in 6 months I've dropped almost 10 shots and I'm buzzing about that. What I have found is that each time I get a cut it gives me another target to beat & I've been pretty successful in reaching those targets (with some blips of course). My last two cuts were 1 whole stroke each. I don't think this would have been the case in the old system? Although I'm open to correction on that as I never maintained a handicap or played comps before last year. I think the new system really rewards form, my last 7 scores are all contributing to my hcap, I'm hoping to make it 8 in a row next week.

blue note

Yes

I'm shocked that yes is the clear winner in this poll. I voted yes. It's certainly flawed, but so was congu.

The main thing I prefer with this system is that handicaps can go up significantly without intervention from the handicap secretary. I'm one of the very few delighted to see high handicap winners of overall comps.

I like that you can submit casual rounds so easily. I find that makes me care about the casual rounds a lot more.

What I don't like are the course ratings. I'm not convinced they're robust. I like the idea of them, but they don't seem accurate in my experience.

And I don't like that if someone wants to cheat on their handicap they can do it more effectively with this.

spacecoyote

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573564#Comment_119573564

I think that I've found that the course ratings are actually probably OK, but the slopes definitely need revision

mjsc1970

No

Overall No for me

Yes it shows current form, bit that's about it.

For me, Casual rounds should have no bearing. Different story when you have a card in your hand in a comp that means anything. Casual rounds mean nothing to me other than a nice walk and fresh air. Or holiday games on golf trips. To me those games are to be enjoyed playing golf solo or with a group of mates. Chosing during rounds we'll play the tips on par 3s and whites everywhere else. For a fiver. To me that trump's casual scores for handicap any day. But each to their own.

I'm not convinced on its good for inter club golf either. The jury us out on that.

Anyway, it's with us now so so be it

blue note

Yes

The more I think about the move to whs the more I think one of the main reasons for the change is to tackle the lack of young adult golfers in the game. Being able to submit casual rounds is great for those not getting to play in many comps. And for those who take up the game but don't get to play a whole lot, under congu they'd have been stuck for years in a handicap that they couldn't play to. Under whs they'll hopefully be encouraged to play more.

For all the giving out that people are doing about no longer being able to compete, I just don't believe that we'll lose those golfers in great numbers if things don't change. I think the vast majority will keep going out on Sunday morning because they like playing golf and competing against yourself is half the fun anyway.

swededmonkey

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573266#Comment_119573266

100% agree with all of this.

I'd also add CSS doesnt come into consideration for adverse weather or likewise for days when scoring would be good

Seve OB

No

Well you don’t have to submit your casual rounds. I like that you can put them in. Any I’ve put in though (well most of them) have been in some sort of competition, boards society etc so would have had that card in my hand. I think a few of them are counting or certainly were so without them I’d be higher

monkeybutter

Yes

yes, lot better than the old system

more open, more userfriendly, more rounds entered and more understandable

much better at the job of handicapping by ability, which is the actual job of handicap in the first place, some people don't seem to be able to handle that

Yes

Yes

Yes for me. I think it gives you a great insight on your HC and is great for motivation. Especially when you know you have some good scores falling off your 20 score cards.

I can understand the frustrations of the single digit HC golfers though.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573700#Comment_119573700

I dont thnk you will lose the really low guys, but other than pride there is not much point in the 5-10 range keeping up the same effort as before and expecting to be competitive. Better off giving up and practice and watch the wins roll in.

And as for what this does for the "sanctity" of inter clubs as that level...

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119573495#Comment_119573495

You would have had ESRs under CONGU so would have come down quickly enough.

BraveDonut

No

I think that it is too open to building a handicap. In the old system you got your 0.1 no matter how badly you played.

With WHS you can consider yourself out of the competition and then (if you want to ) just continue to score as badly as possible to drive your handicap up.

If you adopt this strategy across a number of rounds it will not take long for someone who is only interested in playing for prizes to build a huge handicap

billy3sheets

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119578819#Comment_119578819

The vast majority of golfers aren't into building handicaps though. Quite the opposite in fact, most are trying really hard to get down. Shouldn't we have a system that works for the majority rather than one designed to stop cheats?

big_drive

Yes

My own take is no matter what system is in place you'll have people who try to find a way to play the system, so I'm not sure any perfect solution exists.

slave1

Yikes!

mjsc1970

No

Think this was mentioned on the other WHS thread. Yep, it's insane

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631004#Comment_119631004

If you go through the rest of their medals, there's a lot of very low scoring in the strokeplay competitions there. from all handicaps

chasingbirdies

Yes

Voted yes - because I like it for myself, I like that its all done automatically & I like the fact that you can submit general play scores because often times I can't get out on competition days

I think for the honest player its a good system , but for the dishonest player its to easy to manipulate - but I honestly don't see how people like the above person in question can genuinely walk around their golf club or community with such scores and not be embarrassed

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119631286#Comment_119631286

Yes and if you go through them again apparently that guy goes out and shoots 122 midweek….. and has “won”4 of their 6 medals this year

April 85-21

May 83-21

August 84-21

He didn’t win July but shot 86-21

in fairness it looked like the stars aligned for him with his 74 (unless this was the gold medal and he planned it like this to be sure to be sure) but regular shooting low 80’s in the medals and with 21 shots suggests nothing more than this guy is a prime example of someone who is gaming the system

gypsy79

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633132#Comment_119633132

He needs a ban as it is so blatant that he cannot argue

For the integrity of the system

If he was in my club I would be telling him every time I saw him what I thought of him. But his fellow members dont

mjsc1970

No

This is doing the rounds on watsapp now.

Everyone will know about this shortly I'd say

Caddy cart

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634014#Comment_119634014

There is a audio with it as well. Yer man is not popular!!!

Macker1

If the club are not willing to do something about the 4 time medal winner then Golf Ireland should. Its a feckin disgrace it makes a mockery of the game.

bakerbhoy

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119639507#Comment_119639507

GI will do fannie all.

Think upper civil service. One size fits all.

They will not stand behind any club /sec who attempts to reel these people in.

It's cheating but how can you prove someone is not giving their best effort.

Any cut/freeze can be wiped out in no time.

Casual 9 holes, couple of opens etc any cut is soon stricken from the record.

Rinse/repeat

New culture formed by the general body ..why bother, just let the h/cap drift out.

It's cancerous to the integrity of the game as we believed it to be.

Whs can work, but reform of current parameters has to happen.

Pro golfers h/cap exercise carried out gave a +6 to + 8.5

But didn't take into account the level of difficulty of the set ups on tour. That would put them in the 43/44pts range for a really exceptional round.That's 11 12 under par.

This should also be the landing area for h/cap golfers points wise.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633132#Comment_119633132

I looked at their results overall, not just that one individual and they are all pretty mad scores. Loads of scores in the 60s and even low 60s. The slope rating of the course is quite low, but judging by those scores, it should be lower still. It's rated 121 off the backs and 118 off the normal tees. I'd be thinking below 113 on the basis of the scores being put in. Well below 113.

It's a public course with a max length of 5,659m and par of 70.

willabur

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119633132#Comment_119633132

I mean... that is so laughably blatant

Would love to hear an opinion of an honest golfer from that club what they make of that fella. I don't care what anyone says but shooting 74 on any course is incredible good golf. That's not just a good day for a 22 handicapper, that's not getting the stars to align.

I am playing off 7 and I haven't ever shot better than 76 on a par 70+ course.

Rikand

Yes

He's down to 13 now, courtesy of his good score

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119642715#Comment_119642715

Also courtesy of an ESR of -2. He had a -1 earlier in the year.

Macker1

Of course his hcap is down. Medal Hunting season is over. Don't worry he will most likely have a very poor run of form now till next year.

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644099#Comment_119644099

Lol, I’m not sure he would have the nerve anymore now that the internet and what’s app groups are baying for his blood

brick tamland

Any and every handicap system that could be used has flaws, and is open to cheating/handicap management ect, thats just the nature of amatuer golf

Is the system perfect? No. is it as good as Congu? Im not sure yet.

But, I think it makes sense i think to have the same system as Rest of the world.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644099#Comment_119644099

He's never broken 80 before (last ~180 rounds and >4 years) and only broken 90 14 times in the last 100.