Is WHS fit for purpose

bakerbhoy

No

Just received a mail from our Club Manager.

Men's and ladies Comms are holding a review of WHS with a view to a submission to GI .

We are asked to submit opinions etc.

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119645293#Comment_119645293

Must have 'just clicked" for him at the four medals. We all dream of those days.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119646156#Comment_119646156

Or maybe he had lessons. I'll give you an example from my club. Young lad joins the club and signs up for the junior camp. Puts in his first 9 hole card for handicap in June, can't break 100. Puts in his second late June, breaks 100, but not 95. Third breaks 95 but hasn't broken 90. Fourth card in mid July breaks 90. Then in August he breaks 85 over 18 holes.

Guess the handicap he gets.

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649467#Comment_119649467

Maybe he had lessons... I have to say while I find your willingness to give the benefit of doubt / trust in the instances refreshing... but also extremely naïve.

A guy winning 4/6 medals and being very close to winning a fifth should be ringing alarm bells.

The fact that despite these great scores, his HC remained relatively constant should also be ringing alarm bells.

And making assumptions just based on his counting scores can be very flawed. From my knowledge of bandits, they generally either go out to win or go out to inflate their handicap in counting comps. Such a player could easily have many "practice" rounds in the lows 80's etc that go unrecorded.

I don't know the guy or have access to his records but at the very least, it's an extremely unusual set of events.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649551#Comment_119649551

I think we should probably leave it at that. I'm uncomfortable discussing somebody on an internet forum like this.

magic_murph

No

Seen a score card of a 61 handicap, male that won a comp with 53pts. Nobody has a chance to complete against that

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649741#Comment_119649741

Pretty sure 54 is the highest possible HC in WHS?

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649767#Comment_119649767

Maybe it was a hcp index of 54 resulting in a playing handicap of 61

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649467#Comment_119649467

Stop making excuses for this guy…….

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649881#Comment_119649881

Why not? People are making accusations based on very little data and that's ok?

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649881#Comment_119649881

Pretty sure prawn is just playing devils advocate.

And trying to keep himself out of a lawsuit lol.

On a related note, I wonder if a handicap secretary deletes a score from someone's record, can golf ireland still see the deleted record. Like on an administrator level.

Just incase someone did have scores of 100+ on their record that were removed

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649767#Comment_119649767

54 is highest handicap index. Playing handicap can be higher depending on slope rating. A 133 slope would give you a 61 PH. Personally I think that HIs should have been capped at a max of 54 PH, but I accept that it would be difficult to do this in practice.

prawnsambo

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119650062#Comment_119650062

I've had to do this with GP rounds that weren't properly registered in the club. And in most (if not all) cases, it would have resulted in a higher index, so I've had to make an adjustment to bring the HI back to where it should be. It's really messy and I hate doing it, but I can't have unsanctioned GP rounds sitting on records.

But in answer to your question, I don't know, but suspect that there is an audit trail.

FixdePitchmark

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649832#Comment_119649832

lol - WHS is amazing - every time you think you seen it all - a classic like this pops up.

Again - 61 - is a person who can't play golf - the guy in 2nd could have had the round of his life - and to lose to that would be slickening.

billy3sheets

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119649741#Comment_119649741

I'm familiar with this particular one. Was a visitor from a European country who produced evidence of Handicap Index in an open competition. An exception.

Benicetomonty

Not fit for purpose. Low guys are getting totally screwed. Low-mid handicappers who are trying are getting screwed. A number of high handicappers I've played with seem genuinely embarrassed at how high their indexes are after a few bad rounds. The casual golf allowance makes cheating, up or down, ridiculously easy, not to mention affordable.

CONGU wasn't perfect but it was infinitely better than this. Medals in my place are being won with stupid scores over the last 2 years - the idea of strokes off the tips levelling things out no longer seems to apply thanks to WHS.

kippy

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119666958#Comment_119666958

The cheaters have to be punished - the same as with any other system that relies on the honesty/goodwill of those that are using it.

If you don't punish the cheaters there's always gonna be those that have a thick enough neck to cheat.

Seve OB

No

i think cheater is to strong a word. nobody is technically cheating anyone only themselves

handicap manipulation

boardise

Does anyone know how scores in fourballs are dealt with in regard to handicap adjustments ?

kippy

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667297#Comment_119667297

This is half the problem - we are too "forgiving" - its full on cheating.

They are cheating themselves, their club mates etc etc

The same as any other type of cheating that happens out on the course.

callaway92

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667337#Comment_119667337

They don't count towards the system and I agree that they shouldn't

You start taking on shots that you generally wouldn't bother with in a singles comp, and likewise, you might half-arse some things if you know your teammate is gonna be in for a good score etc.

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667403#Comment_119667403

Any competition win should result in a cut now. 99.9pc of the people who are winning fourballs and team events generally are playing off a hc that is laughably unreflective of their ability, judging by the scores we are seeing.

If a guy/lady wins a fourball on his/her own and his/he tteam mate is upset at getting cut because he feels it's unwarranted, (s)he can simply not play with him/her the next time.

Way way too much enabling in all of this, or so it seems to me.

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667343#Comment_119667343

But it’s not the same as other type of cheating. Marking wrong score, “finding” their ball, not counting shots, breaking rules etc. that’s cheating.

Russman

Yes

But the vast majority of these guys aren't actually cheating, the system is just designed so that the movements (both up and down) in someone's index are far, far greater than under CONGU. With the index being an average of best 8, chances are they've already beaten their handicap in probably half of those counting rounds anyway. Its not like under CONGU where playing to your handicap was considered a "good" score. IMO 36pts is not nearly the achievement it was under CONGU, and if that's the case, it kind of makes sense that 40pts isn't either ? I don't doubt there are messers out there, but I think we're still looking at it through CONGU tinted glasses IMHO, and with a "winners must be punished/rewarded with a cut" viewpoint.

I mean, under CONGU if you were 3 shots outside your buffer or 23 shots outside it, it was the same outcome, just a 0.1. Logically that doesn't really make much sense when you think about it. Someone who can't get near their handicap and someone who's fairly close to playing to it should be dealt with differently, no ?

kippy

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667909#Comment_119667909

It's the exact same. It has the exact same effect if not worse tbh. You don't see threads like this or others on WHS on those other aspects of in game cheating.

Rikand

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119667909#Comment_119667909

Deliberately playing shite with the intention of increasing your handicap so you can win big competitions is cheating your fellow honest hard working club mates out of prizes that THEY richly deserve, not the cheater.

Sadly, however, Golf is a game of honour. If people decide to cheat, there is no way of stopping them.

blue note

Yes

To me it's white collar crime of golf. It doesn't feel as bad compared to someone pretending their first attempt to get the ball out of the rough was a practice swing, but in reality that's cheating by improving your score by 1. If someone intentionally sandbags rounds so that they've extra shots on their handicap it's cheating by a number as well. It could easily be cheating by improving their score by 3 or 4.

FixdePitchmark

No

The thing about golf is - that people know golf. If your in golf circles and you are doing something dodge on a course , rough , bunkers, marking ball and gaining an inch. People are not stupid - they see it and know what you are at. Because they know this game as well as you. If you think they don't - you are the fool.

Was told the other day - that a good few guys try win back their annual sub - that is their goal for the year.

Anyway - I think if your cheating at golf - you are probably are cheating at other things - and it eventually catches up with you. But maybe I'm wrong there.

finglashoop

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670003#Comment_119670003

I think your last paragraph is accurate.

A decent lad doesnt only cheat at golf. Its his personalty. As said above its a game of honour, and self policing.

Lefty2Guns

Yes

Just to throw this out there. Fella's that register for a competition but don't submit their cards as they had a poor round. Would people consider that cheating?

finglashoop

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

Usually they are keeping handicap down not up arent they so if anything only putting themselves at a disadvantage

Not sure how whs deals with that tbh

newport2

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

Why would anyone do that after a poor round? The system will just give them a net double-bogey on every holes anyway, wouldn't it?

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670450#Comment_119670450

Not if the card wasn't returned afaik. If the card isn't returned it's an old fashioned 0.1 I think.

Maybe a 0.1 would be better than entering a poor card for them if their goal was to keep their HC as low as possible. I imagine it's a tiny tiny percentage of golfers but some low guys try to keep/get as low as possible so they qualify for prestigious amateur competitions.

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670653#Comment_119670653

I have seen two things happen for a non-return, depending on the golf club.

The score is posted to Golf Ireland with 18 x nett double bogeys, or the score is not posted at all.

As far as I know, the rules of handicapping recommend that a penalty score be recorded for a non-return.

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670686#Comment_119670686

It seems that the guidance is that there should be a penalty but that penalty is left to the discretion of the club so?

spacecoyote

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670719#Comment_119670719

Pretty sure there are 2 options open to the club, a penalty up or down.

So if they believe someone is NR to get their handicap up, they cam actually apply a good score and give a reduction.

Or if they believe someone is trying to maintain a low handicap they can apply the net double to every hole as outlined above

blue note

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

It depends. If he is keeping his handicap artificially low to qualify for comps (elite amateur comps for example) then yes I would. You need to be of a certain standard to qualify for them. If you're only of that standard because you're not being honest with your scores (by not returning the bad ones), then to me that's cheating.

If it's an ego thing and he's maintaining a 20 handicap because he'd be embarrassed by a 22, then that's stupid but not cheating. And it's wrong, you have to follow the rules including those relating to returning cards.

PARlance

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670814#Comment_119670814

I must ask around but I'm nearly sure our club sent out communication earlier this year about there being an automatic 0.1 for a NR.

newport2

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670653#Comment_119670653

Just checked a few comps at my club and it looks like they apply the net double bogey to each hole. (A few guys in last weekends comp have 0 points in HowdidIdo with no scores entered. They have net double bogies on every hole in Golf Ireland)

Interesting that it's at the discretion of the club though.

paulos53

The penalty scores in my club seem to be a score that would produce a score differential as close as possible to the player's handicap index. This would be in the players top 8 scores and is likely to produce a small cut.

I assume that this is an automated option with the handicap system

DiegoWorst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670834#Comment_119670834

I'm not sure if that is possible to achieve. Handicap adjustments can't be less than 1 full shot AFAIK.

I have heard of some clubs manually inputting a penalty score with a gross differential of (handicap - 1), if it deems the player is manipulating his handicap upwards, and for players trying to lower their handicap some other penalty is applied. How the club decides which is appropriate, I have no idea.

Anyway however it is decided, I think it is better than a record full of nett double bogeys.

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

that's just being a d1ckhead IMO

Lefty2Guns

Yes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119671747#Comment_119671747

Happens in my club a lot.

Golfgraffix

Do it once in my club and you are out of the next 3 comps, do it again and you are suspended from all comps until it’s explained

Benicetomonty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119670383#Comment_119670383

Yes it is cheating. Guy at our place notorious for it. The lowest hc in the club but not the best player. Ego maniac, but also cheating better players out of spots in Championships and elite scratch cups.

billy3sheets

Yes

If you set up the app to return a score and fail to do so after 4 days, you get an automatic penalty score applied. Can be appealed to Handicaps Committee with valid explanation.

If you don't play a hole in a strokes comp you get a net double bogey (0 points) applied for that hole.

If you fail to return a score in a club competition, it is up to the club committees to deal with it.

Recommended penalties:

Reason : Penalty Score Non-valid reason (e.g. memory or not realising a score had to be returned in such situations as injury, failing light, dangerous weather etc.)

Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the current Handicap Index should be submitted to the WHS Platform (i.e. an Adjusted Gross Score which would be equivalent to the Course Rating + Course Handicap).

Reason: Possible attempt to keep handicap low

Penalty Score : A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the highest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

Reason: Possible attempt to build a handicap

Penalty Score: A score equivalent to the Adjusted Gross Score of the lowest return in the last 20 scores should be submitted to the WHS Platform.

As someone mentioned, the minimum manual adjustment to HI is 1.0.

Salvadoor

No

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/golf/2022/10/31/denis-walsh-world-handicap-system-giving-bandits-more-scope-to-deceive/

From IT

Seve OB

No

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119814503#Comment_119814503

Behind paywall

finglashoop

No

https://archive.ph/mCfm8

Paywall removed here

y0ssar1an22

No

No

anything this easily manipulated is not fit for purpose regardless of other pro's, that is such a fundamental flaw