China’s Army posts “Preparing for war!”

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422022#Comment_119422022

hmm could the CCP be "warmongers" for brandishing their ever-growing military willy and nascent global superpower status at their neighbour Taiwan all the time?

No, it is the veteran US politician who flies in for a quick visit who is wrong!

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422030#Comment_119422030

The US don't recognise Taiwan as an independent state. Do some research before you post...

This is an unprecendented move that even the US government doesn't support

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422047#Comment_119422047

Precisely. The same cast of characters are making the same fundamental (and perhaps wilful) error they made with Putin, that the Chinese Communist Party apparently have no agency, and them childishly lashing out at the House Speaker visiting Taipei (which has happened before btw) is like an act of nature or a dog biting the postman.

If the PRC want Taiwan, they'll have to take it by force, and if they want the US and others to cease interacting with Taiwan, they'll be waiting.

Real Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422047#Comment_119422047

stock related quick visit more like

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422038#Comment_119422038

You are effectively in direct support of Xi Jingping then. As all these foreign investments and education deals are his idea. I wouldn't mind if they were in good faith, but they are not. They are very controlled programs.

Look up "The Silk Road Economic Belt". It is incredibly sinister...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422047#Comment_119422047

Couldn't they both be wrong? Couldn't they both be pushing for conflict?

It's not as if Chinese reactions to this visit couldn't have been determined beforehand (when the original thought to do it was formed). They're pretty consistent with these kind of things.

We don't really need to have an aggressor and a victim in every scenario. Both sides can be equally responsible for pushing things in ways that shouldn't be pushed. It's no different from the US navy anchoring off the Chinese coast, or the Chinese doing military manoeuvres near Taiwan.

They're all intended to be provocative and get a reaction from others. This shite has been going on for decades.. from both the US and China. It's nothing new.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422052#Comment_119422052

do some research before you post

...

this is an unprecedented move that even the US government doesn't support

...

https://www.businessinsider.com/mcconnell-senate-republicans-express-support-for-pelosi-visit-to-taiwan-2022-8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdbb-dGRcAc

"It's not uncommon for American lawmakers to go to Taiwan"

do some research before you post

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/pelosi-taiwan-trip-mcconnell-gop-senators-support?_amp=true

https://www.congress.gov/bill/96th-congress/house-bill/2479

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title22/chapter48&edition=prelim

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Relations_Act

The act provides for Taiwan to be treated under U.S. laws the same as "foreign countries, nations, states, governments, or similar entities", thus treating Taiwan as a sub-sovereign foreign state equivalent. The act provides that for most practical purposes of the U.S. government, the absence of diplomatic relations and recognition will have no effect.[8]

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422058#Comment_119422058

They (China) could try to convince them peacefully without cooercion that (political) unification is the right way forward also, but the road the CCP seems to be taking China down right now is unlikely to be attractive to anyone. A similar problem to the one Russia/Putin have had with their "sphere of influence" I suppose.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422065#Comment_119422065

Not just that, but the House Speaker (Gingrich) has visited Taiwan before.

So no, not unprecedented. That particular poster could do with doing his homework.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422075#Comment_119422075

Really wanna have your receipts in row with your ducks when you make a remark like that. :)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422062#Comment_119422062

You are effectively in direct support of Xi Jingping then.

Rubbish. I'm being realistic, and understanding what will work to effect change within China.

I guarantee you this. If the Chinese economy was to fail tomorrow, with massive unemployment, closures of factories, debt crunch.. you name it... they get it. Support for the CCP would rise dramatically, because foreigners will be blamed. Oh. Some party heads will roll, but it'll be a token few, with little actual change happening. Instead, we'll see a decade or two, where the CCP reconsolidates it's control over the population with it's indoctrination system (which seems clumsy to us, but works really well in China). The CCP revels in poverty. It's methods of control, manipulation, etc are all tried and tested from decades when Chinese people were poor... and a shattered Chinese economy would give them the chance to retake all those Chinese people lost to western culture.

Your way is simplistic, and has no basic understanding of Chinese culture.. or the established infrastructure of the CCP within Chinese society. You really should look beyond the bright lights of Shanghai and consider how the poor live, because they've consistently been the biggest supporters of the CCP.. and still represent the biggest section of Chinese society.

Look up "The Silk Road Economic Belt". It is incredibly sinister...

I know exactly what it is. It's an inept operation, full of corruption, and costly mistakes. It's been an incredible cockup.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422065#Comment_119422065

25 republicans support her but the US president and Military don't? What is going on...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/07/21/biden-china-nancy-pelosi-taiwan-military/

xxxxxxl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422087#Comment_119422087

No fan of Pelosi but The US military is supposed to be non partisan. And it's Biden saying their not happy clear from the article security issues that's all.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422087#Comment_119422087

Playing both sides.

25 Republicans and the Democratic Caucus majorly support her, that's Congress, our most political branch of government, essentially backing their congressional privilege to make diplomatic trips wherever the hell they want.

From the military's perspective, they're interested in keeping the peace, they would love if the trip didn't have to happen at all, but also if the military backed it what then, vs. what is already happening with fleet deployments - expressing support would just be additional escalation? What would it do to improve the situation?

You will find that a plurality of Americans are critical of the hold China has on Taiwan and elsewhere and they both don't want war but will not be bullied into being told where we're not allowed to go, what we're not allowed to see and who we aren't allowed to talk to. Hence the bipartisan support in Congress. The noise from the MAGA wing is electioneering only, they hate China's guts.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422087#Comment_119422087

Here's another thing, China (and you perhaps) quite literally can't understand that the President cannot tell the House Speaker what to do. It's commonly reported from Western diplomats that when dealing with Chinese counterparts and they explain mundane democratic precepts like separation of powers, the Chinese side get genuinely bamboozled and think they're being tricked or lied to.

Overheal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422118#Comment_119422118

This.

Any member of Congress, is enabled to an immense degree to execute their legislative rights. That includes the rights to go where they want, on official visits, paid for by Uncle Sam (and are scrutinized for frivolities) Normally this comes in the form of visits to warzones, eg. lawmakers may want to investigate if the executive branch is telling them the truth about reality on the ground. It can certainly also be the case of members going to Moscow on the 4th of July, or to CPAC Hungary, too. These are visits the POTUS has no right to veto.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422064#Comment_119422064

If I can explain, the rhetoric around this visit (mentioned on thread) seemed ridiculous and over the top to me given it is not apparently unprecedented.

I think I read this event had been "threatened" before and was put off due to Covid pandemic. It is a visit of an important US politician (but still not the President or Vice President or the like) and IMO that is not equivalent to USA sailing a military fleet down the Taiwan strait [to sit off China's coast?] or the Chinese sending one to Florida or the like.

I don't think the Chinese are as consistent as you say in their reactions. I think they are the ones changing + are getting worse. The angry responses to others failure to show deference get larger and it becomes more unpredictible as to what may cause a negative reaction as their power grows. Am I wrong about that do you think? I suppose we'll just have to wait and see what they do now.

They may have contempt for the US, don't really fear it any more or begin to believe they are equals in the world "superpower" stakes, but they will be disappointed if they think the US is going to show the consideration for their sensitivities they get off others, and increase the careful tip-toeing around them. Especially in context of the way Russia is right now trying to re-legitimise + take the harm out of conquest and genocide as policy tools of a sort, and China seem to be, maybe okay with that, not condemning it anyway that's for sure.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422052#Comment_119422052

I'm perfectly aware of Taiwan's international status. And I have visited it regularly over the years.

There is nothing within that status that prevents politicians of any stripe from visiting. It has hosted politicians from Europe regularly (including from Ireland), from the US and numerous other countries.

On the topic of unprecedented and research: As per other posts, I'd advise that you fire up your preferred search engine and seek out Newt Gingrich's visit to Taiwan in 1997 as House Speaker. So no, far from unprecedented. I'd also advise you familiarise yourself with the Taiwan Relations Act as well. So do some research before hitting the post button next time out.

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422132#Comment_119422132

They may have contempt for the US, don't really fear it any more or begin to believe they are equals in the world "superpower" stakes, but they will be disappointed if they think the US is going to show the consideration for their sensitivities they get off others, and increase the careful tip-toeing around them. Especially in context of the way Russia is right now trying to re-legitimise + take the harm out of conquest and genocide as policy tools of a sort, and China seem to be, maybe okay with that, not condemning it anyway that's for sure.

There is an argument to be made for it suiting Xi to ratchet this up. The Pelosi visit relegitimises the status of Taiwan and they are just very annoyed. They want to show they are but are not prepared to push any real buttons. Unlike Putin, Xi realises the complete disaster that would be for China. China too was surprised at the breadth and scope of the response to Putin's war and the economic fallout to an attack on Taiwan would ruin China for a vey long time and make them untrustworthy as a partner. For China face matters just as much. As for the propaganda well six months of the Putin machine has probably made us less worried than we would have been had there not been a Russian invasion. Ultimately China will play war games, Pelosi will leave and we'll return to that uneasy status quo.

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119422465#Comment_119422465

Exactly!

China cannot afford a war in terms of economics. Nor can they win a war.

They rely to heavily on imports via the Strait of Malacca, which the US and Indonesia will cut off straight away. Fuel and Food Shortages would happen over night.

There will also be tariffs on all trade with China if they attempted to invade Taiwan.

No food, No money, no fuel = uprising, and that is the absolute last thing China wants.

Chinese military is years behind that of the US, Taiwan, Japan, Australia. They also have not been at war in a very long time, such to the extent that their military is unproven. Their air force is in effect 50+ years old. The bulk of it is Mig-21's and Su-27's licensed copies but with under powered engines.

Compare that to ultra modern F-35 and F-22 US planes along with over 1000 older F-16's and F-15's to bulk out, coupled with the US's power projection ability and it's clear China would have absolutely no chance in a War with the US (never mind with it's allies as well)

Likewise the US does not want to get involved in a war with China.

This is all sabre rattling

nigeldaniel

China's rhetoric will bring about an end to Chairmans Jin's leadership. I recall last year an snr communist party member from the south est writing in a local paper some very critical comments about Jin and the direction he was taking. that was a big change from the usual party lines so I half imagine if Jin wanted a war with anyone he would not have the support to declare it. He has to be content with posturing and loud chest beating. That's the problem with schoolyard bullies. Once they start sounding off they feel they have no choice but to keep it up. Talk about backing yourself into a corner! the same story with the zero covid madness Jin insists on. The rest of the world is getting on with life and they are stuck in a time warp. The Chinese community can see this and it keys them off.

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119423413#Comment_119423413

I wouldn’t be so sure. I’ve visited China a lot and the level of control and brainwashing is a sight to behold. The government is supported.

A Chinese friend of mine who has lived in Ireland for years and prefers living in the west than back home even told me he has no issue with Jinping. When Jinping had his tenure extended for life my mate said “he does a good job. Why change something that is working?”

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424135#Comment_119424135

I lived in China for 2 months back in 2012. Normally a mild mannered bunch but the Taiwan question was the one topic that got them all agitated. Even the smartest of them got uppity when you suggested that maybe Taiwan should be a sovereign nation. I tested the water a couple of times and it was always the same response. They want it back.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424190#Comment_119424190

No different to the Spanish and Gibraltar, Argentina and the Falklands, Ireland and NI, Serbia and Kosovo, Cyprus/Turkey

The difference here is that the US are actively trying to prevent unification because they fear China growing into a stronger power

is_that_so

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424462#Comment_119424462

It's not all about the US. Most Taiwanese and political parties support the status quo, and recognize that this is de facto independence through sovereign self-rule. In a 2020 opinion poll over 70% favoured independence in some form, either via the status quo or full independence with about 10% looking for a return to China.

Overheal

Complaining because Pelosi invited them and they declined

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1554545051904114689?s=20&t=ZmKPdQq0EGAIqD5pTdPkTA

Kennedy went to Moscow one July 4th with his GOP MAGA buds and they didn't invite the Democrats

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/kevin-mccarthy-criticizes-pelosi-for-not-taking-any-republicans-to-taiwan-neglects-to-mention-she-did-invite-them/

faceman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424462#Comment_119424462

eh what are you smoking?

Is ireland threatening to invade NI to reclaim it? Is NI a sovereign country?

Is Spain threatening to take back Gibraltar by “any means necessary?”

Have to laugh at irish commentators who think that being a neutral country and having the history of the troubles of British occupation, they suddenly become experts on countries they know balls all about 😂

nigeldaniel

The Chinese seem to be missing the point. Taiwan, overwhelmingly, wants nothing to do with China.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119424910#Comment_119424910

As opposed to the Irish commentators who are full on US imperialists.

the Chinese Taiwan issue is clearly a local issue. It has no relevance to the citizens of Texas. Even at the height of the British empire there were conflicts on the other side of the world that the British didn’t feel they would bother with. The US needs to wind its neck in.

as for Ireland - neither king nor kaiser.

Don't think it has been mentioned on this thread, but one of the sanctions China has imposed or Taiwan is the ban on the import of river sand to Taiwan from mainland China. China is Taiwan's main supplier of this type of sand, I'm not sure if this stuff is majorly used by the Taiwanese semiconductor industry but I do know that this type of sand is majorly important for making concrete.

Unfortunately, there are only a few places in the world where you can get the type of sand that you need in order to make concrete.