China’s Army posts “Preparing for war!”

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427410#Comment_119427410

America for all it's faults and it has many is the beacon for democracy for our world

Beacon for democracy my ass. Which is why they've tampered with their own voting system, manipulated other nations democratic processes, propped up dictators, and even squashed populist movements towards democracy in countries they wanted to remain under a particular regime supportive of the US.

The US is no bastion of democracy.. that's always just been a propaganda piece.

Without it pieces of sh1t like Xi and Putin would run riot.

Putin got stopped rather quickly in Ukraine.. and that was without US or Western intervention. China has had a number of border skirmishes over the years, and they haven't won most of them. The simple truth is that most nations are relatively capable of countering countries like Russia or China. Where would China run riot towards? They haven't got a lot of options, and the Asian alliances make any such movements rather risky.

TheValeyard

Taiwan is a democracy.

China is a dictatorship with concentration camps and history of ethnic Cleansing.

How the fcuk are people claiming China has a right to Taiwan.

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427006#Comment_119427006

I was responding to a post, directed your ire there!

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427428#Comment_119427428

During the Iraq war (03), which I was very opposed to, I used any opportunity or excuse to bash the US. I personified the country and it's history as a whole and fell into the trap of irrationally (and fanatically) "taking sides" against that, as opposed to just objectively criticising the Bush administration.

There's plenty to objectively criticise about the Biden admin's policy with China, but I see little of it in this thread.

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427478#Comment_119427478

Leftist agitators the same ones who secretly support Putin and hate everything good America stands for would love to see China expand it's land mass.

Drumpot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427510#Comment_119427510

I was under the impression Biden didn’t actually want Pelosi to visit, so his policy with China in this case wasn’t even followed!

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427513#Comment_119427513

China is reacting to the geopolitical situation. Same as Russia.

Check out a map of US based around the world. Both China and Russia are surrounded by them. It’s no wonder they’re worried and trying to ensure that they aren’t entirely encircled.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases

Prisoners of Geography by Tim Marshall is an excellent book on why nations act as they do.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427422#Comment_119427422

what the hell are you on about?

bob mcbob

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427213#Comment_119427213

The CCP were too busy waging war against their own people to have time for foreign engagements.

Check out how many Chinese died during the civil war. Then look at the cultural revolution. Then you can follow that up with repressions that followed Tiananmen Square.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427272#Comment_119427272

Exactly this. Years ago, before Xi came into power, I had started to imagine a potential peaceful solution where Taiwan would actually choose to join with mainland China in a Hong Kong-style 2-systems 1 country model. But now that Hong Kong is clearly being converted into a regular province of mainland China, with all the freedoms of expression they typically don't have, I can't see that working at all.

Taiwan have HK as a clear example of reasons why to keep themselves out of Beijing's control.

Some posters have been doing a tally of the number of wars China has started vs. the US, but counting off international wars is leaving out the conflict that the CCP Government has been engaging in the past 80+ years, the War against it's own people. The CCP want absolute control of their county and have done many terrible things to ensure it. I feel that having a liberal Chinese democracy right across the waters from their lands is part of their motivation to invade. You can't have your people getting silly ideas of choosing their own government, or head of state. Or getting voted out for doing a crap job! Imagine!

The idea that letting the CCP take over Taiwan would somehow lead to peace is nonsense. A PLA conquest of the island would be the stuff of horror, and likely a mirror of what happened in the areas of around Kiev that the Russian's briefly took. Taiwan should absolutely be empowered to defend itself, as the alternative is too horrible to allow happen.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427563#Comment_119427563

I agree somewhat. It's complex high level chess moves, and while I fully agree that countries must undertake the unenviable task of having to stand up to Chinese aggression, I think the timing was off.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427585#Comment_119427585

You might want to check what years are involved there.. whether it's the civil war, the cultural revolution, etc. There's quite a bit of time in-between for China to have gone to war if they wanted to. Arguably it would also have been the best time to do so, due to the reliance on post-ww2 equipment (similar to the Korean war equipment used), and Chinese massed infantry divisions would have been more effective (as they were at the time).

China had no interest in foreign engagements because they had enough to deal with within their own borders. Mao's communism wasn't concerned with the rest of the world, unlike Stalins communism. Different focus.. but not because they didn't have the capability to do so, if they wished.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427510#Comment_119427510

I was very critical of the US during the Iraq invasion and subsequent occupation. It wasn't an excuse. They deserved the criticism. Just as I was very supportive and full of praise of their involvement in Bosnia.

You don't have to pick a side and stick with them, no matter what. You can look at the behaviour of a nation, especially a superpower, and be critical of what they're doing at any given moment, not because of any dislike of them, but rather the world they've managed to create.

The US has been the world's leading superpower since WW2, and they've set the template for how a superpower behaves internationally. Whether that's intelligence gathering on their Allies leaders (Germany), the installation of pro-capitalist dictators in S.America, the suspension of rights for non-combatants (Guantanamo Bay) or the military commitments over the decades, and the reasons for those military commitments (Vietnam, Iraq, etc).

I have no patience with this Black/White Good/Bad approach some posters here display. They want to ignore what the US has done, so they can pile on China, disregarding the international conditions that went previously. They've no interest in history because it's an inconvenient obstacle to their desire to place the US on the pedestal of the hero, and China as the villain. In every possible situation.

It's far too simplistic. The thread is about China, and Taiwan.. but also about the US involvement in both. The US can't be removed from the discussion, if we want to have an informed conversation.. but that's the point. Those posters don't want such a conversation to take place, because it challenges their simplistic/lazy view of the world, and where western nations fit into it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427563#Comment_119427563

Pelosi is the Speaker of the House. She's a different part of the political system to the executive. Biden doesn't have the power to "tell" her what to do.

mcmoustache

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427478#Comment_119427478

Because everything bad is the West's fault and those lesser people outside the west are just primitive humans reacting to Western aggression.

At least that's the impression that I'm getting from those who are OK with having brown people to chinese re-education camps.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427513#Comment_119427513

There's an issue on the left and right in terms of backing both Putin and Xi, just for different reasons. And largely reliant on conspiracy theories for the Putin backing.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427338#Comment_119427338

Taiwan hasn't been 'ruled' by mainland China since the 19th century. And even then it was barely part of the Qing and more or less do what it pleased bar a few Han outposts on the coast.

Taiwan is functionally independent and has a de jure constitutional history older than the PRC.

The one China policy is a diplomatic fiction that countries play along with so they can sell Chinese housewives handbags and their husbands Volkswagens.

If China wants to go Back to the Future and play Prussian 19th 'realist', here's the reality: if they move on Taiwan, the ROC army has spent 70 years preparing for it and will end the majority of the Chinese navy. What's left of it will be picked off for sport by the US air force. Japan will be back as an assertive military force and their pacifist constitution thrown in the bin. Both them and South Korea likely will step out of the US nuclear umbrella and arm themselves as they see fit.

That's the reality and they can cry into their breakfast congee in impotent rage all they want.

If they want it they will have to spill an ocean of their own blood in the attempt and risk collapsing their country. Those are the stakes.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427687#Comment_119427687

The US has been the world's leading superpower since WW2, and they've set the template for how a superpower behaves internationally. Whether that's intelligence gathering on their Allies leaders (Germany), the installation of pro-capitalist dictators in S.America, the suspension of rights for non-combatants (Guantanamo Bay) or the military commitments over the decades, and the reasons for those military commitments (Vietnam, Iraq, etc).

This is the trap I am referring to. People simplify and cherry-pick the worst of a country's history, fall into the trap of personifying that country, then form an irrational stance against it. They associate the policies and actions with that personification, rather than the different administrations.

Based on this they often assume the worst geopolitical intentions based on this "personality" they've assigned to it, they use any opportunity to soapbox/rant about that country's history, they steer away from the key subjects at hand to focus on that country, they pay lip-service to the topic whilst spending inordinate amounts of time "discussing" that country, they gaslight about it, they attempt to project objectivity, etc

When you have individuals who systematically do this, it's very clear what's going on. When they've mentioned Iraq more times than George Galloway has in topics that have nothing to do with it, when they give "the summary speech" about US cold war history for the 20th time and so on - these are just some of the very obvious red flags.

I fully agree, the US is a part of this discussion. Keyword: part.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427513#Comment_119427513

The main posters on here arguing for China have claimed to be right wing, support BoJo, LePen, trump etc in other threads on here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427911#Comment_119427911

This is the trap I am referring to. People simplify and cherry-pick the worst of a country's history, fall into the trap of personifying that country, then form an irrational stance against it. They associate the policies and actions with that personification, rather than the different administrations.

For the most part, irrespective of the different administrations, American foreign policy has been traditional, in that it builds upon and reinforces the policies of past administrations, going back to the desire to bracket in communism, while elevating capitalism (not democracy, capitalism). Trump attempted to change that policy but was blocked from doing so, because that policy is essentially institutionalised within the American culture at this point.

Different administrations have very different approaches to internal affairs.. but when it comes to foreign affairs, the template was set up long ago.

When you have individuals who systematically do this, it's very clear what's going on. When they've mentioned Iraq more times than George Galloway has in topics that have nothing to do with it, when they give "the summary speech" about US cold war history for the 20th time and so on - these are just some of the very obvious red flags.

Except that the US has been at the forefront of geopolicial change since WW2, and their actions has enormous bearing on how other countries behave. In many cases, they've set the precedent in allowing those behaviours, because they did so, without receiving the international condemnation that is usually extended to other countries for doing the same thing. Sure, there are those who go to extremes in pointing out US behaviour, but the opposite is also true, where posters avoid recognising US behaviour like the plague, and refuse to accept the links between their behaviour and that of other nations.

I fully agree, the US is a part of this discussion. Keyword: part.

Exactly. Part of the discussion. As is China, part of it. And Taiwan is part. Hell, S.Korea and Japan are also part of the discussion, because the region of Asia is affected by what is going on.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428031#Comment_119428031

Am I a main poster? You won't see me in any threads supporting BoJo, LePen, Trump, etc. While I'm not arguing for China, I'm also not arguing against China.

The point is to recognise the realities involved. Yes, China is dodgy beyond belief, but they're operating in an environment that has been developed by more than just themselves. The US, the western powers, Asian powers, etc have all been part of this for decades.. and are equally responsible for how the region has developed, along with the politics involved.

EOQRTL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428031#Comment_119428031

Forget about on here im talking about the real world of which this forum most certainly isn't. Leftists have always and will always have a soft spot for eejits like Xi and Putin and a irrational hate for America.

joseywhales

I don't get the laundry lists of American misdeeds, sure if the thread pertains to China, then the us, China, Taiwan relationship is relevant but why is Guantanamo bay or cia operations in South America? All that seems relevant to me is that Taiwan does not consent to rule by the CCP and does consent to relations with the us, including a visit by pelosi. I don't see what the Americans are doing wrong here, they are supporting the decisions of the democratic will of the people of Taiwan.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427471#Comment_119427471

It's a bit disingenuous to say that Putin was stopped without western intervention. Since 2014 the us alone have invested 11bn and supplied training to help prepare the Ukrainians, again with their consent. Then since the invasion they have been providing intelligence, weapons, more training and economic pressure at a cost to America. People will refute their intentions or motivations but in the end, a sovereign nation asked them for assistance and they assisted and operated within the consent of that nation. This is the difference. The Chinese and Russians do not care about the consent of their targets. If Taiwan voted tomorrow that they would like to merge with the mainland, the Americans would back away peacefully.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428231#Comment_119428231

It's a bit disingenuous to say that Putin was stopped without western intervention

There was no direct intervention of Western forces in Ukraine, and the useful supply of military hardware began after the invasion. US involvement prior to the invasion came down to Ukraine playing both Russia and the US off each other so that Ukraine could benefit, and there is no real idea of how that investment was spent.. considering the corruption of the country, and the poor state of the Ukrainian military when the invasion happened.

As for rest, it's got nothing to do with what I posted.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428163#Comment_119428163

I don't get the laundry lists of American misdeeds, sure if the thread pertains to China, then the us, China, Taiwan relationship is relevant but why is Guantanamo bay or cia operations in South America?

It's not. It's relevant to discussions about Chinese actions beyond it's borders. You're taking things out of the context by which they were made.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428150#Comment_119428150

So a good few of the republican party in the U. S. LePen are all lefties now?

joseywhales

the useful supply of military hardware began after the invasion. US involvement prior to the invasion came down to Ukraine playing both Russia and the US off each other so that Ukraine could benefit, and there is no real idea of how that investment was spent

Just because you cant tell "how the money was spent", doesn't mean that it wasn't an intervention. Even along those lines, I would imagine some of it was used to improve military capabilities of a country that was partially occupied. The Ukrainian military capability improved substantially from 2014-2022. The fact remains that the US were supporting Ukraine before February 24th with financial and training assistance, which can be verified. That directly contradicts your statement that there was no western intervention(you subsequently decided in reply to use the term direct intervention and it is true that they did not directly engage militarily)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428283#Comment_119428283

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428128#Comment_119428128

You do have a mix of political influences that shaped the region. But since the U.S. started to try and normalise relations with China from the time Nixon visited, which has led to their economic development and the ability to increase their military spending.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428099#Comment_119428099

Personification of a country's history. There's no "they", it's not a person with a personality. These are nations with complex politics, run by many different sometimes polar administrations with diverse foreign policies. E.g. Germany is not hypocritical for criticising war because "they" have started wars before. Summarising history and thinking like that is a very slippery slope.

I think you misunderstood my point, certain countries administrations are part of the discussion, not all of the discussion.

Fandymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428231#Comment_119428231

Back away peacefully, then pump money into the opposition, possibly assassinate the party leader who wanted back into China and install a puppet leader.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428411#Comment_119428411

The fact remains that the US were supporting Ukraine before February 24th with financial and training assistance, which can be verified. That directly contradicts your statement that there was no western intervention(you subsequently decided in reply to use the term direct intervention and it is true that they did not directly engage militarily)

I originally said intervention, assuming (incorrectly it seems) that posters would be aware that it meant direct intervention, the same way that the US would intervene in the case of Taiwan. You chose to talk about military financial support to Ukraine before the conflict..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428436#Comment_119428436

You're oversimplifying the manner in which China improved economically, considering the markets that Asia provided to them, as did Europe. Yes, American foreign policy shifted on economic terms, but their military/diplomatic position of containment regarding Chins has never shifted, and that bears direct consequences on the overall region. (As evidenced by American military bases or funding within most Asian nations surrounding China).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428584#Comment_119428584

Come on. "They" is used as a simplification for easy use of discussions. As for the rest, I notice that you're not terribly concerned with the differences between different Chinese administrations, as Xi was very different to Hu Jintao or Jiang Zemin.. instead it's "China" and they're all counted as responsible even to the point of references to Mao's policies complimenting modern China as if nothing has changed.

And I never said that certain administrations were all of the discussion. You introduced the angle of different administrations representing different angles/policies of American influence.. but as I said before, American foreign policy has a template which has been mostly been followed regardless of what administration is involved. Some aspects were shifted, such as the economic support of China in the hopes of encouraging closer relations, but at the same time, US fleets continued to make tours of the region, and American military personnel (and hardware) continued to be rotated in/out of Asia.

For an easy time of it, we can use they for China or the US, because few of us want to go into the detail of assigning this and that to particular administrations.. especially when in both cases, foreign policy has remained largely the same for decades.

is_that_so

Japan’s defence ministry said five missiles launched by China during its drills near Taiwan had fallen into Japan’s exclusive economic zone, which extends 200 nautical miles – or 370km – from Japan’s coast. Tokyo has protested to Beijing.

This whole petulant exercise doesn't seem to be all that well thought out. Winding up one neighbour is bad enough!

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429150#Comment_119429150

Beijing would do well to remember that Japan has a mutual defence treaty with the US who backstop their security.

If the so much as hit a Japanese fishing vessel we have entered a new world.

Yet we'll have f*cktards here and elsewhere honking like geese about tension raising and gameplaying from the US with the PRC firing their sh*tty missiles all over the shop.

Labaik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427179#Comment_119427179

Wow. A drop in the ocean compared to the U.S regime changing coup loving democracy bombing utopia.

Labaik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427437#Comment_119427437

Its a shame the U.S isn't consistent in what countries sovereignty it wants to protect. They support and arm Israel who are just as bad as Russia or China. They also support the Saudi's. The most despotic regime on the face of the earth. If your going to go act like the World police surely you cannot pick and choose what nations you wish to protect.

Have we casualty estimates yet on China's war on fish and other marine life?

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429800#Comment_119429800

Who gives a f*ck. All people want now is Russian troops in body bags stacked on trucks heading back towards the border.

Israel and Saudis have their rap sheets but enjoy an esteem in the world community that Russia will never enjoy for a generation or more.

Russia is a leper nation only supported by political cranks and losers.

Yurt2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429817#Comment_119429817

If they were aiming for tuna they'd miss anyway.

Their much vaunted hypersonic megaweapon missed it's target by hundreds of kilometres the last time it was tested.

The real reason tankies hate the American "military Industrial complex" is that it actually produces gear that works and hits targets. Unlike the poundshop crap from autocrat countries.

archer22

Pelosi is a total hypocrite, a quick internet search shows she is a supporter of Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories including settlement building.

She has also issued statements condemning the BDS movement. So she's no big fan of people who make moral decisions on where to spend their money either.

Overheal

a quick internet search shows she is a supporter of Israeli policies in the Palestinian territories including settlement building.

How quick?

TheValeyard

I think we can agree that Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel are at the top of the list for extraordinary d1ckheadedness behaviour and generally acting the cnut. But just because one country is acting the prick, it doesnt excuse other countries getting away with it nor does it become some sort of 'gotcha' comment if another country with a questionable past is helping stop the bully boy club.

Quite simply. China has no business or legitimate claim over Taiwan anymore. That ship has long sailed away. And regardless of americas past horrors (and there have been quite a few) America is in the right here when it comes to Ukraine and China.

A day of reckoning will have to come at some stage for Saudi Arabia, Iran and Israel, but at the moment, I think we can all agree that the actions of Russia and China are entirely unjustified and weirdly, America is correct here.

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119427513#Comment_119427513

It's customary to provide evidence when making statements like you have here...

WJL

The Chinese..are they really a grand bunch of lads..

MFPM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119428163#Comment_119428163

I suppose because the US have continually ignored the decisions of the democratic will of people in numerous countries, they accept the democratic will of the people when it suits their interests thus it's relevant to point out that hypocrisy.

Yurt2

Oh look "the cavalry" has arrived.

And by cavalry, someone totally hasn't switched accounts.

archer22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119429886#Comment_119429886

Ok she did in 2017 vote against a house resolution that would condemn "UN security council resolution 2334" which called Israeli settlement building a violation of international law.

But she has expressed

Ironclad support for Israel.

supported their 2014 slaughter in Gaza.

And strongly condemned the BDS movement.

The 3 above alone makes her very much a hypocrite.

AbusesToilets

Hypersonic missiles just continually strike me as utterly pointless weapons in the majority of situations. They might have their use case in instances of counterterrorism strikes where time is a critical factor. I don't see their real value in any period of peer level conflicts, even if they're nuclear armed. Every nuclear power has second strike capability, in which case it doesn't really matter if you attack first, you're still going to guarantee your own obliteration

Gusser09

I'd imagine the Russians are watching China with great interest.

Ten of Swords

@Labaik do not post in this thread again