Sabina Higgins Letter to Irish Times calling for ceasefire on Ukraine

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411888#Comment_119411888

Why is it the the most outwardly vehement views on the war seem to be the most vulnerable to alternative views?

People keep saying that this view (Sabina's) undermines Ukraine and bolsters Russia.

If Ukraine believes it should fight on I don't think a letter in the IT is going to sway them.

From a personal point of view, why does an alternative view threaten how you view things? It's odd tbh.

I

beachhead

More flahula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412173#Comment_119412173

People are emotionally invested because the propaganda has been manipulating them on an emotional level..

Propaganda 101 pretty much..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412173#Comment_119412173

The point of russian disinformation and propaganda in the West is to cause confusion and get as many people to do as little as possible.

Since they have lost their artillery advantage to Western military support, attacking Western public opinion is the only weapon left.

Ukraine does not get to decide whether Western nations support it or not. Public opinion regarding the russian invasion of Ukraine in those nations has a large bearing on the decisions made in those nations.

None of the finger pointing you're playing at will stick, I'm not threatened, nor am I dismissing her right to an opinion or to have it published.

It remains she is a useful idiot, her words serve to bolster that same russian strategy at work in Western nations, cause dissent, confusion, misplace blame and so forth.

She can say what she likes, but precisely because she lives in a relatively free nation she also get's to be called out for it.

There's no alternative facts or views here. A ceasefire in the war russia started would militarily bolster russia, calling for one aids the aggressor in this conflict.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412218#Comment_119412218

There are multiple alternative views.

You have tunnel vision if you can't see them tbh. I have been listening and reading them since before and after the invasion.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412229#Comment_119412229

You really do embody this meme. Explain more to the people who've had their nation invaded why dear Sabina must be heard from the leafy avenues.

FrancieBrady

Ah, the memes are here. Ok. 🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412254#Comment_119412254

Hey if you quack like a duck.

You're accusing me of all the things you're allowing for dear Sabina, so if you want to make a joke of yourself I'm letting you.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412267#Comment_119412267

I didn't accuse you of anything.

I asked why your views are so vulnerable to alternative views. And I said if you can't see that there are alternative views then that suggested tunnel vision.

Why are your beliefs so vulnerable and have you not seen alternate views out there?

'There is no other view' is not an answer.

Fiery mutant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412229#Comment_119412229

I dont think the view is the issue here, it's more the platform the view was given.

For example, I'd have no problem with Sabina's view being aired that forum, so long as an opposing view was given the same platform. So if say, Micheal Martin's wife could call for the closing of the embassy, expulsion of all diplomats, declare Putin and his cronies war criminals etc. There is a reason why there are laws regarding air time around election issues.

The west has been far too polite in calling out the crimes of that shithole country for too long, all while Putin and his scum threaten all kind of shite at anyone who opposes their warped world view.

Fiery mutant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412254#Comment_119412254

In fairness, everyone likes a good meme.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412315#Comment_119412315

I love them, it's a sign of an argument hitting a brick wall.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412347#Comment_119412347

Jeez Francie you're the one banging your head off a brick wall. Let it go and let the discussion get back to the topic.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412383#Comment_119412383

Floors all yours Jim, nobody stopping you giving your opinion. Perish the thought

MFPM

Fair play to Sabina Higgins for writing the letter, hopefully, she stands firm on it and doesn't bow to the hysteria of the same batch of politicians, academics and journos who've spent the months since the start of the war trying to silence any viewpoint that doesn't tally with the Western/NATO dogma.

It is also interesting to contrast the hysteria around Higgins and the virtual silence around the sinister move by the Ukrainian government to produce a random list of people who allegedly spout Russian propaganda because let's face Zelensky and his government can do and say as they wish with absolutely no critique by the West...

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412556#Comment_119412556

And in the country that produces this propaganda alternative viewpoints can land you up to 15 years in prison. Until Russia has free speech why should their propaganda be tolerated in Western countries? Could anything more utterly confirm that they have lost the argument when they have to impose such draconian laws on their own people?

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119405395#Comment_119405395

An unwinnable war, eh! It only took the rah-rah brigade 30 years to cop on.

Pussyhands

https://twitter.com/paddycosgrave/status/1553669478822645763?t=7tOob3Oybv_8bamMEEi8Hw&s=19

Exactly as I was saying. I guarantee people will just go on about cosgrave and not the content of the tweet though. He is spot **** on.

Hotblack Desiato

SF joining forces with the RCC apologists to lick the hole of an imperialist warmonger. I've heard it all now!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412289#Comment_119412289

You're correct, there is another view, it's called the wrong view.

That I'm supposedly threatened is a tactic of your own construction. I'm calling out the effects of her words for what they are, that of a useful idiot. She's freely being allowed to act in that way.

I missed the memo where you were appointed some sort of judge as to acceptable answers....

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412556#Comment_119412556

I be you thought it was a beautiful poem she included in it as well.

I wonder what the wife of the POW who had his balls hacked off before being shot in the head and his body dragged through the streets thinks of Sabina and her poem.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412702#Comment_119412702

You do realise that if I was stuck for an argument I could just stamp my feet and call you a 'useful idiot'?

What does it mean ...nothing. It's just ineffectual namecalling because you don't like the view.

20silkcut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412725#Comment_119412725

The Russian ambassador the representative of the lying terrorist murderous regime has welcomed her comments. Therefore she is a classic useful idiot with a cherry on top.

rdwight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412556#Comment_119412556

If there is such hysteria about alternative viewpoints how come the reaction to Geoffrey Roberts' IT article a couple of days before the Coyne Higgins letter has been so muted? He comes to a similar conclusion as Coyne Higgins but without her pious guff about moral choices and her quotations of anthology poetry.

The differing reactions to the two pieces might be because

1. Roberts acknowledges Russia's role as the aggressor in recent months
2. He calls for negotiations based on the realities of the military and political situation in the Ukraine, not on a one-size-fits all "war is bad" basis,
3. Coyne Higgins, unlike Roberts, is the spouse of our head of state and her musings will inevitably be given more weight and attract more scrutiny both here and abroad. Many posters have emphasised that there is no constitutional barrier to her writing silly letters to the paper. However just because she is entitled to do it, doesn't mean that doing so is not a demonstration of very poor judgement on her behalf.
4. Despite condemning them as aggressors, Roberts' article is more sympathetic to the Russians than the "Western/NATO dogma" MFPM refers to. Coyne Higgins, despite some waffle about "moral choices", makes no comment on the origins or conduct of the war. The immediate reaction of many people reading her letter, myself included, was that this "moral neutrality" on her behalf implicitly, and presumably unintentionally, gave support to the aggressor in the war who occupies large chunks of its neighbour's territory. The validity of this reaction was confirmed by how the Russians and the Ukrainians responded to the letter.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2022/07/13/ukraine-must-grasp-peace-from-jaws-of-unwinnable-war/

On a lighter note, there is the issue of Gustav Holst's nationality. Coyne Higgins refers to him as "the great German composer" and implies that the poem he co-authored with an English poet was a war-time collaboration across the lines. It turns out that Holst was a born and bred Englishman. Coyne Higgins is obviously very familiar with the poem: as well as quoting it in her letter there is a video on youtube of her reciting it.

What I can't get my head around is firstly the sloppiness of describing Holst as German without checking it and secondly the total lack of curiousity on her part about an artist who she obviously admires. If I hear or read a piece I like the first thing I do is try to find out more about the author.

For some reason this reminds me of the Paddy Kavanagh lines

My black hills have never seen the sun rising,
Eternally they look north towards Armagh.
Lot's wife would not be salt if she had been
Incurious as my black hills that are happy
When dawn whitens Glassdrummond chapel. 

Kavanagh was Irish by the way. I just googled him.

jmcc

The phrase "useful idiot" has a specific meaning:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

Regards...jmcc

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412865#Comment_119412865

Exactly.

Can be applied to anyone but really doesn’t mean a whole pile after that.

The Russians seize on something as propaganda?

WELL I’m shocked! They’ll use whatever they can as propaganda and if they can’t they will lie about it.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412694#Comment_119412694

Cosgrave is a chaos agent with a deeply mediocre mind but a planet sized ego. He craves attention and wants nothing more than to see the world burn for his own amusement. He is the poster child for our modern age of entitled online foghorns who contribute nothing to public debate except disinformation, chaos and their own ultra-narcissism and entitled gobshitery.

He's a gobshlte of the worst order.

So obviously he is pro-Russia and makes completely wrong analogies to justify pushing pro-Russia propaganda. You'd expect nothing else.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412173#Comment_119412173

Yes it does "bolster Russia" whatever the intent, and however minor any "bolstering" is, I mean that is why the Russian ambassador here praised it! (maybe also trying to troll and stir up some shít, am sure he knows he is not a well-loved man in this country and his blessing is not going to be popular)

I agree it's not very important (maybe wrong, but feels a bit of a storm in a teacup), and she has the right to write such letters under her own steam, even if it seems unwise because of who she is married to.

Whether the President agrees in private kind of doesn't matter either IMO, once it's clearly her own view, and fully her responsibility for putting it out there rather than having some association or endorsement from the President behind it.

That would be issue IMO with it being put up on a govt./state website...especially if it had stayed there!

Podge_irl

I don't think it takes much of a leap to suggest that comparing a situation that has long been troublesome beyond living memory and can trace its roots back at least 500 years is not exactly a great comparator for a 5 month old invasion.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119412916#Comment_119412916

Yes. I’d imagine they will address that in their own time and calmly.