Sabina Higgins Letter to Irish Times calling for ceasefire on Ukraine

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411341#Comment_119411341

‘In your opinion’ needs to be added to that.

She has hers and is as entitled to it as you are to yours.

I disagree with her btw.

WealthyB

I remember a time when the left was overwhelmingly "anti-war", "anti US imperialiasm".

I remember tens of thousands of people marching in Dublin against the invasion of Iraq. Today those same people would be denounced as Agents of Saddam Hussein.

The lefts brightest problem is that it has allowed itself to become defined as being solely anti-right. This makes them incredibly easy to manipulate. 10 years ago those on the left would have been anti big Pharma for example. Now they all believe Pfizer are benign altruists.

Strazdas

Incidentally, the retired UCC guy that Mrs Higgins quoted, Prof Roberts, wrote a puff piece a year ago about how Putin wants steady and stable relations with the West and would never dream of starting a big war in the region. How anybody was even looking for his opinion on the war this year is anyone's guess.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411375#Comment_119411375

The so called "realist" school of international relations has been thoroughly discredited and humiliated.

In reality they were complete fantasists and everybody can see them now for what they are - thinly veiled Putin propagandists.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410932#Comment_119410932

If somebody who is not a supporter of Sinn Fein equated the IRA to Russian Nazi invaders, you'd be the first to go postal on them.

So it's quite the turn up that you see no difference at all between what the IRA did in the North and what Putin and the Russians have inflicted on Ukraine.

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411412#Comment_119411412

Comparisons with NI and Ukraine always interest me. What if The NI executive turned a blind eye to UDF terrorism for a decade, and then incorporated the UDF into the RUC giving them legitimacy? What would the South be expected to do, standby and watch the state sanctioned persecution and murder of NI Republicans?

My greater point is, it's way more complicated than just the reductionist idea that Putin = bad and Ukraine = good guys.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411412#Comment_119411412

ROFL Big stretch there.

And completely off topic.

fly_agaric

Apart from problems with the specific analogy made about peace-making, roping in NI and the "troubles" seems very twee and parochial.

Is it offensive in the context of largest war in Europe since WW2?

Russia is visiting a level of violence and brutality on Ukraine where we need to go very, very far back in the history books to find any comparable events in English/Irish relations.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410512#Comment_119410512

A ceasefire only benefits russia.

Ukraine is in the ascendency on the battlefield. Ukraine has halted russias advances. Ukraine is degrading russias logistics which directly affect russias ability to conduct offensive operations. The only card russia had to play on the battlefield was it's clear advantage in artillery. With the introduction of HIMARS in particular, and other Western weapons, Ukraine has been able to stop the russian offensive by destroying russian fuel, ammunition depots and command and communications.

Calling for a ceasefire will allow russia time and space to restock front line units with annumition, fuel, rations, spares. It will allow russia time to construct and repair infrastructure. It will allow russia time to reorganise their forces, and improve defensive positions.

Agitating for a ceasefire directly and transparently benefits russia and mr putrid.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411448#Comment_119411448

It is not more complicated.

This is the most simple conflict of our lifetimes to understand and the most simple since World War II.

Putin and Russia have wholly, by choice, assumed the mantle of evil that Hitler and the Nazis had.

They are a scourge of evil on our world and they must be thoroughly defeated and destroyed.

Anybody giving succour to them now should be treated with the same disdain that those who gave succour to the Nazis did.

This is what Sabina Higgins is doing.

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411494#Comment_119411494

That's just reductionist hyperbole. Sorry, I don't mean to dismiss everything you say but invoking Godwins is just crazy. Did The Allies have rocket bases in the Sudetenland? Were there Germans in Poland and Austria being murdered for simply being German? Did The Allies break any treaties with Germany?

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411448#Comment_119411448

You're absolutely right, like me you probably have seen the troubles, read about them and know all the variables.

It's very complicated in the Ukraine too, there's a lot of history and other **** going on before the war.

The north was absolute chaos, turn off the wrong road back in the 70's 80's or 90's and you may well disappear and become one of the missing all because of your religion or accent,car reg etc. I had a frightening encounter myself, I'll never forget it. Luckily a RUC jeep escorted me away as I was being followed in my southern reg car by a few dodgy bastard's. In fairness I appreciated it, they pulled me over and gave me directions to the border, said they would follow me and said we advise you not to come back to the area again.

Same happened not so long ago in Syria and Iraq, the Shia's and Yazidis were getting lifted left right and center.

People tend to forget that when they're supporting the latest thing, that the latest thing isn't very supportive.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411456#Comment_119411456

You are the person who brought the "off topic" stuff into the topic.

You tried to muddy the waters for the Russians' benefit by comparing what they have inflicted on Ukraine to the situation to the North.

A comparison that is historically illiterate, deliberately offensive, and laugh out loud stupid.

Your comparisons of John Hume and Bertie Ahern, who tirelessly worked for not just peace but a just peace, to weasels who are obvious appeasers of the genocidal far right regime that is Putin's Russia, are an insult.

Fiery mutant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411448#Comment_119411448

But the British did turn a blind eye to unionist atrocities, and collude in some of those same atrocities.

I knows your trying to equate all this to Azov/Ukraine Armed forces, but you're very wide of the mark.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411490#Comment_119411490

A ceasefire only benefits russia.

If you are of the opinion that Russia can be beaten back, that is fine as a view.

I stress I personally believe Russia can and may be beaten back but not everyone is of that view.

If you believe Russia cannot be beaten back then you believe a lot of people are going to die for futile reasons. I suspect that is what is motivating Sabina and others like her.

She is entitled to express that view IMO even f they are those who don't want to hear it.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411516#Comment_119411516

It is not complicated. A genocidal fascist regime has unleashed a real life hell on a peaceful democratic neighbour which posed no threat to it, with the aim of genociding its population and replacing it with client Russians. Putin and the Russians aim to erase an entire people.

That is exactly what Hitler and the Nazis did.

We now know who would have supported the Nazis back then. The evidence is before our eyes on these forums and elsewhere.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411525#Comment_119411525

Sorry, calm down and read the post again.

I compared calls for a ceasefire in the North, by the UN and others to this call for a ceasefire.

I did not compare what happened in the north to Ukraine.

WealthyB

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411533#Comment_119411533

Fair enough, but I kinda draw the line when people are telling me that I should be rooting for *actual Nazis* because they're the good guys.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411567#Comment_119411567

What you did is exactly as I described.

All you can offer in response is weasel words to defend the indefensible and the exact type of shameless concern trolling pro-Russia cheerleaders always use.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411578#Comment_119411578

As I said, you need to calm down and read what is actually being said.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410040#Comment_119410040

I don't think you know what the word ceasefire means.

Didn't realise Ireland was now full of war mongerers.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410110#Comment_119410110

Ukraine have had support for 5 months now and are still losing ground.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411549#Comment_119411549

The practicalities remain, agitating for a ceasefire aids russia and harms Ukraine. Her actions, at the kindest, are those of the useful idiot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411605#Comment_119411605

War isn't a weekend at Bernies. Time to get back to the real world.

Pussyhands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119410077#Comment_119410077

So I guess you also think sinn fein shouldn't have signed the good Friday agreement then?

They negotiated with people who invaded them.

Looking forward to your response.

bad2thebone

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411564#Comment_119411564

So they're going to wipe them all out according to your observation. And you're last paragraph is a reflection of your lack of foresight and provision.

What do you think about the western world taking lithium and minerals from poorer countries and enabling us luxury while we're swanning around in electric car's, using products from the sweat and toil of people who will never have the comforts we have.

The countries torn apart in order to have regime change, would you support that ?

It's not good what's happening in Ukraine, nobody is supporting the war here it but you seem to react rather than respond.

Making an observation isn't an opinion.

Only for the Russians maybe you'd be speaking German right now, but I suppose you live in the moment and looking back is fatuous.

Modern day liberalism is very fascist too, but that's another story.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411606#Comment_119411606

Over blown to be honest.

If there aren't people agitating for peace it will never happen.

I would prefer to live in a world which cherishes free speech, even if it is against what I believe, than one where people are encouraged to the herd mentality.

Argue your case, and that is as much as you can do.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411592#Comment_119411592

I understand exactly what is being said.

In the North, at any point during the Troubles, calling for peace meant taking away the main barrier to a more just, peaceful society. The main barrier was killing. You had to remove that to have any hope of real advance.

That's what John Hume, Seamus Mallon et. al wanted. They wanted a fairer society for all.

Calls for "peace" in Ukraine are thinly veiled calls for a situation which will lead to the destruction of Ukraine and the genocide of its people.

You are not negotiating with the IRA or Loyalists. There was some hope of reasoning with them.

There is no hope of reasoning with Putin and the Russians. Peace, for Ukraine, means capitulation in the exact same way "peace" with the Nazis meant capitulation and the destruction of Europe.

The sooner everybody understands that Russia are the equivalent of the Nazis, the sooner this will end in the way it needs to if our world is have much hope of a future - with Russia's total defeat and the death of the Putin regime and its replacement with a regime which comes to terms of total surrender with the west.

Snooker Loopy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411623#Comment_119411623

This is satire, yes?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119411643#Comment_119411643

Calls for "peace" in Ukraine are thinly veiled calls for a situation which will lead to the destruction of Ukraine and the genocide of its people.

Again this is your view, there are others equally as valid, as to what Putin's goals are.

And you are free to argue that in the relevant Ukraine threads.

This thread is about free speech and the role of a President's wife.