Maxol Recharge

zg3409

https://www.irishnews.com/business/2022/06/17/news/maxol-start-work-on-ni-s-first-dedicated-ev-hub-in-2m-holywood-scheme-2746910/

https://www.plugshare.com/location/318776

They already have one pay to use charger in NI, typically 38kW max.

the_amazing_raisin

4 units that can charge 6 cars, up to 200kW

Kinda hoping that's 200kW per unit and not split 6 ways 😱

Seems like an odd combination of chargers, 2 units with double plugs and 2 with single. I wonder is it 4 CCS and 2 Chademo or something

Or maybe they were limited on spaces

zg3409

First photos from new maxol hub in Belfast. Due to open in December (they said Dec 6th) this year. At least one charger is ccs only, presumably load sharing 75kW x 2 when 2 cars using it. The middle one might have chademo. The one on far left seems smaller. No idea on pricing, app etc. I am shocked at a rain cover!

the_amazing_raisin

What, you mean I won't be able to get soaked while plugging in the car!?

Old diesel

Unfortunately Maxols boss seems negative on EV infrastructure in general.

A pity because this is a really good idea for the future.

However on a wider level the idea that existing ICE fuel operators - both at Maxol/Circle K/Applegreen top management level. And the fuel station operator level.

Would transition towards EV charging provision.

Is a very underpriced element of EV charging.

To my mind this facility is fabulous news for EV transition in showing what's possible.

The "we can replicate this in every town" aspect is powerful imo.

Old diesel

Oh and if that plugshare post is the current price then 38 p per kwh is an excellent price....

Presumably a loss leader price based on you being likely to buy stuff in the shop while you wait for car to charge.

the_amazing_raisin

Tbh the Maxol boss seems mostly negative about the cost of infrastructure, I'm guessing the grants in the UK are better hence the charging hub up North

Also, I don't think Maxol have as service stations on main routes as Circle K and Applegreen. Those are probably the more profitable routes, both from charging and from selling food and drinks

Only big Maxol services I can think of is the N3 near Mulhuddart, maybe they're more common elsewhere?

I think in the long run that charging hubs in towns will be near shopping centers. An hour on a 50kW unit is enough for a week's driving for a lot of commuters and you can get your weeks shopping done in that time

In that environment the village petrol station will get squeezed out of the market

And yes, the idea of a charging hub in every town is a very powerful one. A lot of people complain they have to meticulously plan ever long trip with an EV and have multiple backup options, so the idea of chargers being so ubiquitous that you can pull into whatever town you feel like stopping at and easily find a charging hub will get rid of that notion

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938524#Comment_119938524

All very fair points.

My thinking isn't so much that the old petrol station model is the best way forward.

But that current petrol station people will need to replace their business currently from petrol and diesel.

And they are in a position to do EV charging in future.

Especially in key towns like Mullingar, Tralee, Clonakilty, Dungarvan etc.

If small villages need chargers then you'd probably put them in key areas of importance to that area.

Like the GAA club, car park that's used for community centre or local school.

zg3409

I would prefer 50kW+ chargers at Tesco and lots of them. Many have a real cafe where you can get real food. I think instead of petrol stations hotels may have better infrastructure and parking.

In terms of infrastructure in the north I believe a grid connection/upgrade in NI is much higher cost than in ROI and mainland UK. So total cost in NI is higher than everywhere else. Also no generous grants being offered out like in Scotland.

Ideally you have a large high power site like a motorway services and not a small petrol station without a high power grid. Many existing maxol sites may be on the small side and may require expensive grid upgrades and new substations to handle even a couple of chargers.

Maxol may see many of there existing sites unsuitable or in wrong location for EV charging. Traditionally they may only have room for 10/20/30 cars maximum and most cars need 10/20/30/40 minutes to fill up and move on versus petrol and they may see their sites being too physically small with no room to change them.

If I was a petrol station owner and I saw the market changing, I would be worried too. I can imagine those offering stables to horses looking at cars driving by ..

liamog

If I was a petrol station owner and I saw the market changing, I would be worried too. I can imagine those offering stables to horses looking at cars driving by ..

It's ironic really, in the oldie days many inns would have had stables for horses. Now we could see the resurgence of roadside inns to have a carvery whilst giving your car a recharge.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940139#Comment_119940139

If any Westerns are to be believed there was always a water trough and a bale of hay outside the general shop for the horses that were hitched up

So yeah, we may be seeing the resurgence of that model. Charge while you shop or stop for lunch

I would say if the UK is anything to go by, I'd be expecting to see them popping up at the likes of Starbucks and Costa and other takeaway food types of places.

One place I stopped on the M5 was a sort of organic food market/takeaway place that had a couple of 50kW electric highway chargers. Other than the fact that there was only 2 chargers it seemed like a good setup

Found it on Google maps

https://maps.app.goo.gl/vT9fEPDkKw2Jh1yx7

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938175#Comment_119938175

I wonder how much that added to the price. Imagine the disappointment to hear they put a cover on. As opposed to a second location

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940221#Comment_119940221

Probably less than the cost of one charger tbh, doubt the shelter broke the budget

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940132#Comment_119940132

I'm totally on board with the idea of Tesco having chargers.

My only concern with supermarkets being a key go to place for charging...

Is the potential for supermarkets to link charging to actually needing to use the shop.

Edit

This is less of an issue with the likes of Super valu as their carparks are often general purpose ones in the local area effectively and not totally linked to using Super value.

liamog

I don't see that as any different to when supermarkets build petrol stations. Fuelling/charging the car is what brings you to the site. There's no reason to then lock you in when you you're probably going to be there for 45 minutes anyway. Tesco may have a sour experience from their greenwashing installs of AC chargers, but they'll soon learn when they see Supervalu stealing customers.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940882#Comment_119940882

Totally agree.

While EVs charging is only getting to be more of a opin in the whole the last whie, what would fix this is if a chargers was available in every town to plug into as soon as you arrive.

But as you said i dont see the like of Tesco shelling out for them if they dont pay for themselves in extra money spent in Tesco. I dont see the economics of it working out. You would have to charge a horrendous amount for the actual charging to make it pay to install one. Same with garages. How much does somone spend while charging? Not enough i think. Expect the cost of charging to skyrocket there too.

It will be the death of EVs if the current infrastructure doesnt get far, far better than it is. It will also be the death of EVs if the price to charge goes up anywhere near the price needed to pay for a charger to be installed and maintained, not to mention the cost of the electricity.

Theyve really messed this up by not going hell for leather with the infrastructure before the amount cars reached what it is at now.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940882#Comment_119940882

Not sure that's a universal truth, SuperValu in Killester charges for parking unless you get your ticket validated in the shop. They don't let customers of other shops park for free

I can understand why they charge with the Dart station nearby, but it's definitely not a shared resource

If supermarkets do get in on the fast charging game (I really hope they do) then I could see a situation like the Tesco in Clare Hall, where spending a certain amount in the store got you a discount on petrol

There's a few EVs nearby me which don't seem to have home charging. If the local Aldi installed a few 50kW units (or two of those 100kW Delta units that can charge two cars at once) and gave 5c off per kWh for every €50 spent in store they'd most likely rob a bunch of customers from the local Lidl which has EasyGo AC chargers

It isn't likely to result in more than a €5 discount on the charging, but it does encourage customer loyalty

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119940953#Comment_119940953

You make it sound like the installation of DC charging equipment is a huge outlay. The numbers really aren't that bad. If it costs €50,000 to install a 50kW charger, over an expected operating life of 6 years, you need to cover around €23 per day to pay for the capex costs. If the charger is used for a total of 6 hours per day giving around 300kWh of power dispensed, then the premium over commercial rates only needs to be 7.6c/kWh. If you want to add operating costs into that and some profit, then I don't think its unreasonable to see a charging operator making money with a premium of 15c - 20c over their electricity costs. As you scale up the charging power the costs increase, but the amount of power you can sell also increases.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941185#Comment_119941185

They don't even need to go that far, just install the chargers and they will come!

the_amazing_raisin

Totally true @liamog, I guess we're at the tipping point where there's enough EVs that the investing in DC chargers makes a lot of sense in many places

I agree that providing chargers will be enough in the short term, but there's also some real competition finally entering the market. So we might see charging providers actually trying to incentivise people

I can dream, right 😁

innrain

Maxol Ballycoolin planning application.

The proposed development will consist of alterations to the car parking and its extension to the rear of the site to provide: a roofed shelter above 4 No. relocated and 2 No. new EV charging spaces (6 No. in total);

They really want them sheltered.

zg3409

Road tarmaced. I think there are 3 large chargers and one smaller.

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943145#Comment_119943145

Smaller one looks a 22 kW AC

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942026#Comment_119942026

If you zoom in on the elevation they've helpfully put the power of each charger

Looks like a single 200kW unit, 2x 150kW units serving 4 spaces (presumably they split to 75kW when 2 cars are charging) and a single 50kW unit

Shall we take bets on whether the 150kW units will be have Chademo plugs or CCS only?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119943878#Comment_119943878

If it's like the Ballycoolin layout then it's probably a 200kW unit. It could have a separate power unit hence why it's smaller

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941538#Comment_119941538

Thats a very small profit you are talking about for the outlay. And you need to multiply out the chargers at each location and also multiply the locations. We need to be at a point where you dont have to wait when you need a charge and you dont have to drive an extra 20 or 30km to make sure you are near a charger. I assume the maintenance is not free on those chargers either, nor admin. They break down a lot, so there is probably a service contract needed with them too.

VikingG

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944420#Comment_119944420

To be honest you will also be making profit from the ancillary services, food etc - Cinemas make more profit from popcorn etc.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944420#Comment_119944420

That's pretty much how refuelling works, it's a classic loss leader business. For petrol sales you're generally seeing between 1c to 3c profit per litre for the forecourt operator. It's the convenience store and the coffee that makes the money.

The value of a customer captive on your site for between 30 and 60 minutes is far higher than you'll ever make selling the electrons.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944463#Comment_119944463

Refueling at a petrol station maybe you might make something. Would you make enough though to encourage you to put enough chargers at each station to make the experience a good one is the question. You certainly wouldnt make enough anywhere else.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944829#Comment_119944829

Think you've missed the point, forecourt operators are making very little profit on fuel sales.

For EV charging if you provide a good experience, you've got a customer stuck with you for up to an hour. Most business would love to have that kind of bored captive customer. It's the difference between selling a coffee to go, and instead selling a coffee and a pastry that you sit in and consume, or some other form of fast food.

Similarly for a supermarket, they're competing with each other for your custom. If you can get the consumer to your site by selling a break-even charging service then your already one up on the competitors who don't.

zg3409

Better pictures of Kinnegar Holywood 

1x50

2x150

1x200

If 150s being used by 2 cars at same time drops to 75 each

Zoom in for better detail

the_amazing_raisin

Looks like that's going to be a standard layout and Maxol will just copy and paste elsewhere

Looks like only the 50kW has Chademo? Rest are CCS only if the colour of the plugs is anything to go by

I wonder what that smaller unit between the 200kW and 150kW on the left is. Maybe an AC charger, or a payment terminal?

dsandson

The two smaller pillars coloured blue are payment terminals. Perhaps it's reduces the running costs to only have 2 card terminals.

DownByTheGarden

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119944923#Comment_119944923

No, I think you've missed the point actually. EV fuel stations are not going to bring in anywhere near even a fraction of what ICE fuel stations do. Surely you can see that.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119946327#Comment_119946327

The smaller units look like AC units.

Good thing theres not many chademo, pesky leafs blocking HPC isnt a good look

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119958589#Comment_119958589

debatable, fuel alone no. However we a captive audience that spends longer on site means more upselling bigger lunches etc

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119958589#Comment_119958589

If selling fuel at the forecourt isn't the primary revenue stream for a fuel station, then why does it matter that you are also not making money selling EV charging.

Do you really think that having a bored customer on your site for between 30 minutes and an hour isn't a huge opportunity to increase ancillary sales over having 5 times the customers who are only in the building for 2 minutes?

eltoastero

Stolen from Reddit.

Best comment also stolen from reddit: "Flegship EV hub"

Well done maxol, many more please

the_amazing_raisin

Love the layout but I pity the Leaf owners who will turn up to find an E-tron plugged into the 50kW because they didn't want to pay the 150kW rate

It'd be great if they could squeeze in another 50kW dual plug, but otherwise a fantastic setup

the_amazing_raisin

Dumb question, but where exactly is the service station? Is it the one below?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/hf2e18qCo8o3CCFH8

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959900#Comment_119959900

Plugshare is your friend

https://www.plugshare.com/location/410081

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959900#Comment_119959900

I was wondering that too. That one makes sense as it has a grass area to the South-West which they must have tarmaced over for these new terminals?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959929#Comment_119959929

It wasn't showing on Plugshare until I realised I'd filtered out paid chargers 🤦‍♂️

My bad, thanks for clearing that up 😁

Hope it opens before the end of the month, I'm planning to head to Belfast and a reliable charger in NI would make life a lot easier, even if it's a bit of a detour

mfceiling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960030#Comment_119960030

Park upstairs in the castle court shopping centre. There is a bank of free 11kw chargers. Win win!!

zg3409

Now live. Pricing above.

zg3409

Overstay fee of 50p, PER MINUTE, no idea of when this kicks in, no signage as far as I can see from photos etc, no app with time or warning. It may just be idle talk at this time.

10-10-20

That's fine for the 150/200kW chargers if the limit is 45mins like the ESB, but unfair for 50kW.

ELM327

They are a private enterprise and can therefore charge what the market will bear. Fairness is irrelevant.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967796#Comment_119967796

The principle is the same, they want the customer to be on site between 30 mins and 45. If you're using the 50kW charger for longer than that you probably should have used one of the faster chargers.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967796#Comment_119967796

I disagree, it'll discourage an ID.4 owner like myself camping on the 50kW for over an hour when I should be using the higher powered units

The idea is to make the overstay painful enough that people don't just take the hit and stay longer, something which Ecars don't seem to understand

There's enough chargers there that you'll be fine. Unless you own a Leaf in which case you'd be pretty annoyed to see an ID.4 on the 50kW when the other chargers are free

Old diesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967545#Comment_119967545

Is Brian Donaldson the same fella who is quite negative when speaking to Dublin based media re EV infrastructure.

Hes singing a totally different tune in that piece if so....

Are Maxol hoping that Eamon Ryan and Co will start dishing out money for EV infrastructure????.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967916#Comment_119967916

I have a Kona - max 74kW. What if I need 90% charge or higher. Not much point in me hogging a 150kW charger if my battery is over 80%, right?