AIL 2022-2023

Lost Ormond

Sundays Well beat Midleton 24-23 to keep their hopes of staying up until at least tomorrow.

Clontarf won 31-28

UCD won colours 22-19 after big comeback

Corinthians beat Wegians 31-27 in great game. Wegians were 17-5 up half time by 60 minutes were 24-17 down then in last 10 minutes got 2 tries to lead 27-24 before home side got 78th minute winner and then Wegians had a great chance late into injury time but k/o

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120422923#Comment_120422923

Unfortunately Leinster pay their salaries and they felt they needed the group who would be travelling on the South Africa tour together for a game.

amlinopta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120426981#Comment_120426981

Even when they’re already guaranteed first place in the table? Like the third secret of Fatima the way both clubs treated the game. Anybody know the result?

CIARAN_BOYLE

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427560#Comment_120427560

The final score was 43-19.

Presumably to London Irish as it was in London and I got the score from their fan forum.

Even if the game isn't important to Leinster the 2 match tour could be very important to the careers of the players involved.

Of course they and Leinster want to put their best foot forward.

Lost Ormond

Right into final week for most teams.

1A

Clontarf are top and though mathematically can be caught. I dont see it. They need 1 point to secure 1st.

Tarf are Home to UCD. Shannon are away to Terenure who are trying to catch Tarf in 1st. Con are 3rd and Young Munster 4th. Trinity and UCD could be caught by Shannon if Shannon were to beat Terenure and either university side dont pick up at least a losing bonus.

1B

Armagh promoted as champions. Belvedere and Highfield are in playoffs with 9th 1A. 4th is between Buccs and Wesley. Buccs host Armagh and Wesley are in Naas whove nothing to play for

Huge game at bottom. Malone on 27. Banbridge 29 and UCC 31. UCC host Malone. Banbridge play Highfield

2A

Queens are top and play already relegated Dolphin in Cork next weekend so should win title. If they were to lose which is very unlikely Blackrock can catch them with a win against a Ballymena side with nothing to play for. Nenagh and Barnhall are level on points. Nenagh have much better points difference so as long as they match Barnhalls points next week they will play 2nd and Barnhall will play 9th in 2B in the playoffs.

Dolphin relegated and Bohs 9th in playoffs with 2B

2B

Greystones champions and promoted. Corinthians 2nd. Dungannon 3td. 4th is Sligo now on 43, Wanderers Belfast Harlequins and Rainey are all on 42. Sligo play Quins, Rainey host Corinthians and Wanderers play Malahide whove nothing to play for. Wegians are point above Enniscorthy. Enniscorthy are in stones while Wegians are home to Dungannon. Cant see change of positions there.

2C

Instonians champions. Tullamore currently 2nd with Skerries 3rd a point behind but thats likely to change as Tullamore have Inst at home while Skerries are home to Ballina. Clonmel 3rd and Bruff 4th with Clonmel 3 ahead at moment. Clonmel play Midleton who are 9th and need a win to avoid relegation playoff and Bruff play Omagh who can be caught by Midleton as theyre 3 points ahead of the Cork side. Sundays Well relegated bar a very unlikely set of results as theyre points difference is 130 worse than Midleton

Round Robin

Clogher Valley beat Bective 34-19 and Richmond beat Creggs 14-11 so will meet in final on April 15th to decide who goes senior

Stainalert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120427599#Comment_120427599

All fine but I think where most people will have a problem will be that 3 contracted players were released to UCD. This seemed to deliberately favour UCD as the players selected in their place would not be ranked ahead of them in the Leinster pecking order.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437999#Comment_120437999

I really supremely doubt that Leo & Stu Lancaster care too much about who won the Colour's Match.

amlinopta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438255#Comment_120438255

Clearly the Leinster first team coaches had no interest. But UCD were favoured , whether it was by the powers that be, blazers or some officials, who knows? Trinity and Lansdowne by contrast both had important Leinster players involved in the A game who missed their clubs AIL matches. Both lost tight games. And the results may well impact on relegation or play-off places at the end of the season.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438560#Comment_120438560

I really doubt anyone was "favoured" - UCD may have been more fortunate that for whatever reason the decision was made to leave Jack Boyle and Chris Cosgrave to play. In Boyle's case, they may well have felt he would start this game and get good minutes, whereas it's likely Ed Byrne started in London to get minutes into him.

Sean O'Brien being there isn't surprising given he's leaving for Connacht - he's unlikely to go to South Africa in my view unless they need him.

After that - the Leinster coaches just picked the players they felt they wanted to get minutes into, who are presumably going to play in South Africa.

Other clubs who managed to win games were equally impacted.

axeldoonbeg

I wonder what Shannon RFC might think of it as it enabled UCD to stay 3 points above the playoff game (as are Trinity).

I think Leinster would want both of their Acadamies playing in Division 1A of the All Ireland League !

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438942#Comment_120438942

Doubt Leinster would care what Shannon RFC's views are on what Leinster does with its own players.

axeldoonbeg

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439186#Comment_120439186

My point was the integrity of the League !

Stainalert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438636#Comment_120438636

What other teams that were equally impacted managed to win games ? Tarf the no 1 team in the league ?

Sean O'Brien is a contracted player - the fact he is going to Connacht at the end of the season is irrelevant. He was released and other uncontracted players were picked in his place.

Your Boyle argument does not stack up - all of the players involved in the A game could have gotten good minutes playing with their clubs. Either the game against London Irish was a prep for South Africa or it wasn't - you can't have it both ways.

UCD were favoured this week as Trinity were deemed to have an "easy" fixture against Garryowen next time out. Doesn't look so easy now after Garryowen beat Munsters.

Lost Ormond

it used to be the case for contracted players that they couldnt play in 2/3 final rounds of the league season and the playoffs unless they had played "x" amount of games beforehand to stop clubs parachuting in contracted players for these games. If some players were released to play last weekend its fine IMO. i dont think UCD were favoured in anyway.. Why would many of the Leinster coaches favour UCD anyway? No reason for them to. As even if UCD were to be relegated many contracted players could or would simply move and transfer to play for a 1A club if they felt it was necessary

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439526#Comment_120439526

The Boyle argument absolutely does stack up. Both Jack Boyle and Ed Byrne are recently back from long term injury.

Leinster wanted to use the London Irish game to give minutes to Ed Byrne from the start, with Marcus Hanan covering him (presumably - I haven't seen the teams). Releasing Boyle to UCD meant he started and played bigger minutes. Both players will presumably go to South Africa.

The three guys you're complaining about here are all Leinster Academy players, not fully contracted players. Boyle - a Year 2 Academy player was left behind as Leinster brought a fully contracted LHP (Ed Byrne) and a Year 3 Academy player (Hanan) to London.

What do you mean by "uncontracted players" were picked ahead of Sean O'Brien? He's an Academy player - Ruadhri O'Connor's tweet stated Alex Soroka (Academy), James Culhane (Academy) and Will Connors (fully contracted) started in the back row in London.

If Leinster did decide to bring some sub-academy backrowers ahead of a guy who they know is leaving that would make the utmost sense. Why invest time in a guy who won't be part of your team next year when you can get a closer look at another young promising player?

stephen_n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439447#Comment_120439447

Would it benefit the league for Leinster to hold on to all the players they pay and never let them play club rugby? Might give it more integrity.

Stainalert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439824#Comment_120439824

So just let all the players play with their clubs and they all get plenty of game time.

Uncontracted players have no obligation to Leinster yet Leinster treat them as if they are their property with no discussion with their respective clubs.

A completely unnecessary game that tells clubs exactly where they stand with Leinster. Everything always done on Leinster terms.

Stainalert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439683#Comment_120439683

Current spread of academy players across Clubs

UCD 7

Clontarf 4

Trinity 3

Lansdowne 3

Terenure 2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120442365#Comment_120442365

Ah come on - the purpose of this game was that Leinster are going to South Africa with this squad of players, who don't get an opportunity to play together that regularly. The rationale here was to give them a run out together ahead of that.

They obviously get gametime with the AIL clubs (and I think tbf academy players across all four provinces are playing increasing numbers of AIL minutes in recent seasons) but Leinster are focused on getting them to play the type of game Leinster want them to play.

Leinster's first priority is obviously just Leinster. They are doing what they feel is in the best interests of themselves and the player's development. It may sound callous to say they aren't concerned about the clubs and who goes up or down, but I think it's probably accurate.

Who are the uncontracted players you keep referencing? The handful of guys like Cormac Daly, Conall Boomer, Colm Hogan etc who've spent some time training with Leinster this season?

Do you ever consider that for those players, this is exactly what they want too?

Stainalert

Leinster are a professional franchise and any player that plays with them should be contracted to them. If they select from beyond their paid ranks they should at least pre-consult with the clubs concerned and explain the rational behind the selections. This simple protocol is ignored. It's not a lot to ask. In most other professional sports there would also be some sort of financial remuneration.

The fixture against London Irish could have been played on another date that would have allowed players to participate in both sets of games. They chose to clash with the AIL.

The idea that a professional squad of players who train with each other on a daily basis and will tour South Africa together need extra prep in the form of a meaningless fixture against a mixed bag of a London Irish team is an idea propegated by professional coaches who need to justify their existence. The vast majority of these players have trained and played with each other on a regular basis.

You should research the actual amount of game time that all these academy / pro players have actually played this season. It is quite an eye opener.

Leinster are happy to use clubs to gain exposure for "their" players when it suits them best. At what is a critical part of the season for clubs it would be nice if this generosity from the clubs would be reciprocated by Leinster but the London Irish fixture flies in the face of that.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444567#Comment_120444567

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. These players are Leinster players first and foremost, and the vast majority of them are schools developed players, so it's not like the clubs have any great claim to them beyond their current registration.

I imagine it is quite clearly understood and acknowledged within the clubs that if you have players on your books who are part of the Leinster Academy or senior Leinster squad then those players primary objective is Leinster, and not the club. They're a nice to have for the clubs when they're available, but ultimately Leinster are paying their wages and free to call upon them as they see fit.

I agree with you that the timing (and short notice) of the fixture aren't ideal, but it is what it is.

Stainalert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444606#Comment_120444606

You are hugely under estimating the role that clubs play in Irish rugby. The proposition that the vast majority of these players are schools developed players is hugely disrespectful to all the clubs out there. The vast majority of players have actually developed in the clubs they are with and that has helped them develop into the players that they are and given them solid foundations as professional players. For example how does a prop actually learn how to scrum when the current laws prevailing at schools level inhibit this? If you accept the basic principle that the best way for a young rugby player to get better is to to actually play rugby then the clubs are very important to these players development. Most of the academy players would have precious little game time this season were it not for the clubs giving them the opportunity to play some rugby.

You say that these players are Leinster's first and foremost. Yet Leinster don't pay the wages of uncontracted players (centre of excellence etc) and still look to control their availability regardless.

The final stages of the AIL are probably a molehill for Leinster but they are anything but for Leinster's stakeholders (i.e. the clubs involved) and some recognition of the importance of these fixtures from Leinster is all the clubs are asking for in this instance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446636#Comment_120446636

Yeah, no one is disputing the importance that the players play matches. Leinster's academy players have largely been available to the AIL clubs this season (with the exception of the guys who've been hurt or who've racked up big minutes in the Leinster senior side like John McKee and Rob Russell.

You are hugely under estimating the role that clubs play in Irish rugby. The proposition that the vast majority of these players are schools developed players is hugely disrespectful to all the clubs out there.

I'm not under estimating the role the clubs play, but you're overstating the role these specific clubs have played in this current crop of player's development.

Of the current Leinster Academy, you've 7 lads who's AIL club is UCD. UCD haven't developed those players - in the cases of the players involved they're almost all schools developed players (Jack Boyle - Michaels, Rory McGuire - Blackrock, Diarmuid Mangan - Newbridge, James Culhane - Blackrock, Sean O'Brien - Blackrock, Ben Brownlee - Blackrock & Chris Cosgrave - St Michaels).

The three who are with Lansdowne were only signed to Lansdowne after they joined the Leinster Academy. Of those three; Sam Prendergast came through Newbridge College (and before that Cill Dara RFC), Charlie Tector through Kilkenny College (and I think Enniscorthy) and Temi Lasisi (Enniscorthy RFC).

Of the two Terenure players you've John McKee, who was produced through Campbell College in Belfast, and has played meaningful minutes for Leinster. The other Marcus Hanan is a produce of Clane RFC.

Three are attached to DUFC - where they attend university. They were all schools produced players (Barron - St Michaels, Russell - St Michaels and O'Reilly - St Gerards).

And finally you've three guys with Clontarf - Alex Soroka (developed in Belvedere College), Ben Murphy (Pres Bray) and Andrew Smith (St Michael's).

So in conclusion - not one of the clubs impacted developed any of the current crop of Leinster Academy players. Other clubs did in some instances, but it's predominantly a crop who's development is attributable to the schools system. Clontarf probably have the best argument with Alex Soroka, but he's still predominantly a schools product.

arsebiscuits1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446872#Comment_120446872

Ah come on FTD. Can't let facts get in the way of a good old fashioned béal bocht/poor little AIL/ Big Bad Evil Leinster argument.

The last few posts have been like the constant times I've had the ear chewed off me by the alicadoos in my club (some of them are committee members). All lamenting. No solutions.

Stainalert

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446872#Comment_120446872

Your facts are wholly incorrect. For example none of the Lansdowne players you refer to were in the academy before they joined Lansdowne. Playing & training with their club actually helped all of them make the academy.

You seem to think that schools players are the finished product and that they don't develop after they leave school which is simply not the case.

They have to adjust to the rigours of senior rugby and hone their craft. Clubs help them do that and improve them as players.

Just because a player has played rugby for a school doesn't mean he had no connection / development with a club. Many of the players you refer to above played Minis and youths rugby with a club for a large part of their school career. A lot of them actually played rugby first in a club rather than their school.

It's also very rare for a school leaver in Leinster to go straight into the academy. They have to demonstrate their worth before they get accepted into the academy and this is typically done by playing with a club.

Why haven't UCD helped develop the 7 players you mention ?

John McKee has played a load of rugby with Old Belvedere before joining Terenure.

Rob Russell is a great case of a player who has been developed by his club Trinity. He was not a prominent schools player.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447087#Comment_120447087

You're being totally disingenuous here if you think Lansdowne deserve the bulk of the credit (or really any credit) for Tector, Lasisi or Prendergast making the Leinster Academy.

All three of those guys effectively moved to Dublin for college and to take up the roles in the Leinster Sub-Academy. Tector & Lasisi's performances for the Irish U20s got them Academy contracts. Prendergast only left school in June 2021. Has he even played 10 games for Lansdowne?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447131#Comment_120447131

Not many players make the academy straight from school or straight ot of youths rugby. They are selected after a year of Under 20s and AIL rugby. Hey may be highly rated from school but if they don't perform to level expected in AIL then they are not selected. Playing AIL will be there first time playing open grade rugby and adapting to that is huge. The clubs play a huge role in developing the players. Ignoring that is highly ignorant of the clubs. They are a step as much/same as the schools and youths clubs that players played age grade for

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447211#Comment_120447211

Once again - there are obviously players who owe the bulk of their development to their clubs. In the current Leinster academy Marcus Hanan and Temi Lasisi would be the two prime examples.

But the clubs that developed those players aren't the Dublin clubs they became attached to when they went to college.

This started out as a whinge about Leinster pulling players from the clubs to play for a Leinster A side, with the following sentence:

The vast majority of players have actually developed in the clubs they are with and that has helped them develop into the players that they are and given them solid foundations as professional players.

This is patently untrue.

It might be a step, but it's a step a lot of players bypass entirely. Sam Prendergast was destined for the Leinster Academy from well before he left Newbridge. Claiming otherwise is farcical.

It's a widely acknowledged fact in Irish rugby that the secret sauce is the Leinster Schools system in terms of player development. If it was actually the AIL clubs who deserve a huge chunk of the credit, then why aren't the other three provinces producing players at the same rate? Their players play plenty of AIL too?

Lost Ormond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447273#Comment_120447273

It isn't untrue. There's countless stories of players who looked **** hot in schools cups and thougt of as future pros but when they stepped up to playing men and were outside playing their own age grade alone. The AIL assists the academies and pro set ups did which players are more suitable to step up the grades.

Yes players in some cases will be destined for pro rugby before hey play AIl bit if hey struggle in the step up to senior club rugby it will show hey are not ready yet for pro rugby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120447350#Comment_120447350

There might be a handful of examples, but it's being way overblown here.

There are obviously guys who play meaningful minutes and do show signs of development there, but there are plenty who barely play 10 games with the AIL level club they register with between international commitments etc. Allocating a big slice of credit to those clubs for the development of players in that situation is overkill.

You're generally talking about guys here who are roughly 20/21 - they've spent 6 years in most cases in a schools system and then a few months or a season with a club (that in 90% of cases they had no previous affiliation with).

I get it for the handful of guys who aren't stars straight away - and there have been examples over the years like Barry Daly, or the glut of Lansdowne lads who went to Connacht (Ronaldson, Healy etc), but for the most part the clubs do not deserve a lot of credit for the development of these players.