New thread for the new season
final live on TG4 next weekend.
hopefully will be watching from aviva on Sunday
Real shame. hopefully can rebuild and get back up divisions soon
Midleton beat Richmond 29-17 to stay in 2C so Richmond back to junior leagues again next year
eddie o'sullivan stepping down from his role in buccaneers
Sad to see Wegians going down to 2C.
Saturday April 29th 2023
Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division 2C Promotion/Relegation Play-Off Final:
Midleton v Richmond, Towns Park, 2:30pm
Saturday May 6th 2023
Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division 1A Promotion/Relegation Play-Off Final:
Shannon v Highfield, Thomond Park, 2:30pm
Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division 1B Promotion Play-Off Final:
Blackrock College v MU Barnhall, Stradbrook, 2:30pm
Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division 2A Promotion/Relegation Play-Off Final:
UL Bohemian v Dungannon, Annacotty, 2:30pm
Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division 2B Promotion Play-Off Final:
Skerries v Bruff, Holmpatrick, 2:30pm
Sunday May 7th 2023
Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division Final:
Clontarf v Terenure College, Aviva Stadium, 3pm
Cookies bringing huge crowd up for semi as to be expected.
Wont catch a game as working...
Irish Rugby | #EnergiaAIL Live Streams This Weekend
Results
So Garryowen relegated to 1B, Malone relegated to 2A, Dolphin to 2B, Enniscorthy to 2C, Sundays Well to junior
Armagh promoted to 1A, Queens to 1B, Greystones to 2A, Instonians to 2B
Clogher Valley won round robin final beating Richmond 31-17
Playoffs
1A Semi finals
Clontarf v Young Munster
Terenure v Cork Con
1A/1B
Shannon v Old Wesley
Old Belvedere v Highfield
1B/2A
Banbridge v Barnhall
Blackrock v Nenagh
2A/2B
UL Bohs v Sligo
Corinthians v Dungannon
2B/2C
Galwegians v Bruff
Skerries v Tullamore
2C/Round robin
Midleton v Richmond
Yeah hopefully a great weekend of rugby ahead.
Will be at a few munster age grade finals in Thomond Park before getting in an AIL game not sure if i go to Munsters Con or Nenagh Bohs
Irish Rugby | Permutations: Energia All-Ireland League Men’s Division Round 18
See link above - great synopsis of the weekend of club rugby ahead
Young Munsters (and ex Irish club coach) Gearoid Prendergast has apparently been offered the Academy Manager role for next year following Ian Costello getting promoted to head of Rugby operations
Arguably the four with most potential (well not including Sheridan who may not play much more AIL anyway)...Wilson, Hopes, McNabney and Telfer have all been playing 2A this season. Compare that to Leinster's best prospects!
That new partnership between Ulster Academy and Queens will be interesting.
In Ulster -
Hinch - Saunderson, Crothers, McKee
Trinity - Sheridan
Armagh - McCormick
Banbridge - Humphreys, Carson
Queens - Wilson, Hopes, McLaughlin, Telfer
Ballymena - McNabney
A good few of those lads are Year 3 and will move on to development next season or depart. I would expect all academy players to be playing 1A or 1B next season.
Queens will get into 1B next season but due to a new partnership between them and Ulster the majority of academy entrants and National Talent Squad school leavers will go to queens. After two/three seasons at Queens they are supposed to move to another club. Queens will have a limit placed on non student players. Be interesting how this works out as obviously some of those players may have their development accelerated further by playing 1A.
It would be interesting to see the breakdown for all provinces.
For example I believe Rory Telfer (Ulster Academy winger) plays in 2A for Queens. I'm not sure how many others do, but this is something where I think the other provinces struggle a bit, their up and coming players aren't getting enough exposure to 1A rugby which maybe increases the gap to provincial A rugby never mind the URC.
This is an even bigger issue for Connacht who don't have a team in 1A and only one team in 1B.
It may not be as big an issue in Munster, although losing Garryowen and maybe even Shannon from 1A would and will be a hammer blow for them.
Factual evidence to back up what?
It's my opinion that the AIL clubs to whom Leinster Academy players are registered, for the most part, play a relatively small part in the development of those players. I'm not saying no part whatsoever, and of course it's valuable to get gametime for these guys (especially in positions like front rowers), but if you were assessing and handing out credit for the development of these players (like the current academy crop or the coming intake) then to me c. 80% plus of that credit belongs to the school and the Leinster Development officers who work extensively with the players for in some cases c. 6 years plus.
You may not like the current situation, and I agree that it wasn't ideal timing having that game last Friday, but it's just the reality.
Any chance you could give any factual evidence to back up your arguments.
And please don't twist my words
(iii) claiming scenarios where Leinster should have to financially compensate the clubs when Leinster decide to call up the players that they already pay to play for Leinster, so don't go calling me delusional here.
I am talking about players Leinster don't pay which is clearly stated below in my original statement:
"Leinster are a professional franchise and any player that plays with them should be contracted to them. If they select from beyond their paid ranks they should at least pre-consult with the clubs concerned and explain the rational behind the selections. This simple protocol is ignored. It's not a lot to ask. In most other professional sports there would also be some sort of financial remuneration."
Just because they don't call it the sub-academy any longer doesn't mean it doesn't still exist, and you know exactly what I'm talking about. If anything, the scope of it has probably expanded in recent years.
We're not going to agree here, and are just going around in circles. I'm not saying the clubs deserve no credit for the development of these players, but it's a relatively modest amount by comparison to the schools or underage clubs where they play the bulk of their underage rugby, and then the role of the representative teams etc.
This started off with your claims about (i) Leinster "deliberately favoured UCD", (ii) talking about the "generosity" of the clubs in giving gametime to these very talented young players (when in most cases the clubs are clamouring and competing for these players), and even (iii) claiming scenarios where Leinster should have to financially compensate the clubs when Leinster decide to call up the players that they already pay to play for Leinster, so don't go calling me delusional here.
You're being totally disingenuous here if you think Lansdowne deserve the bulk of the credit (or really any credit) for Tector, Lasisi or Prendergast making the Leinster Academy.
I have never made and would never make any such claim. The clubs do deserve some credit (which you are not willing to give). You are ignoring the facts (again). Sam Prendergast has played far more than 10 games for Lansdowne but don't let the facts get in the way of your argument. Lasisi didn't move to Dublin until his 2nd year. He got awarded his academy contract after he played for the Leinster senior team due to a huge injury list of props. Leinster want him to play tighthead - He was originally a loosehead. His club assisted with this in giving him game time as a tighthead. If you think a player can switch from Loose head to tight head without getting training and experience at club level then you really are deluded.
You are saying the clubs play no part in the development of players which is completely untrue. Clubs are not claiming that these players are developed by clubs. They are simply saying they assist in their development but clearly you don't think that is the case.
In relation to the universities do you not believe that the scholarships they provide (which allow them to focus on their rugby) help develop them or does that count in your eyes ?
PS There is no such thing as the sub academy any longer.
There might be a handful of examples, but it's being way overblown here.
There are obviously guys who play meaningful minutes and do show signs of development there, but there are plenty who barely play 10 games with the AIL level club they register with between international commitments etc. Allocating a big slice of credit to those clubs for the development of players in that situation is overkill.
You're generally talking about guys here who are roughly 20/21 - they've spent 6 years in most cases in a schools system and then a few months or a season with a club (that in 90% of cases they had no previous affiliation with).
I get it for the handful of guys who aren't stars straight away - and there have been examples over the years like Barry Daly, or the glut of Lansdowne lads who went to Connacht (Ronaldson, Healy etc), but for the most part the clubs do not deserve a lot of credit for the development of these players.
It isn't untrue. There's countless stories of players who looked **** hot in schools cups and thougt of as future pros but when they stepped up to playing men and were outside playing their own age grade alone. The AIL assists the academies and pro set ups did which players are more suitable to step up the grades.
Yes players in some cases will be destined for pro rugby before hey play AIl bit if hey struggle in the step up to senior club rugby it will show hey are not ready yet for pro rugby
Once again - there are obviously players who owe the bulk of their development to their clubs. In the current Leinster academy Marcus Hanan and Temi Lasisi would be the two prime examples.
But the clubs that developed those players aren't the Dublin clubs they became attached to when they went to college.
This started out as a whinge about Leinster pulling players from the clubs to play for a Leinster A side, with the following sentence:
The vast majority of players have actually developed in the clubs they are with and that has helped them develop into the players that they are and given them solid foundations as professional players.
This is patently untrue.
It might be a step, but it's a step a lot of players bypass entirely. Sam Prendergast was destined for the Leinster Academy from well before he left Newbridge. Claiming otherwise is farcical.
It's a widely acknowledged fact in Irish rugby that the secret sauce is the Leinster Schools system in terms of player development. If it was actually the AIL clubs who deserve a huge chunk of the credit, then why aren't the other three provinces producing players at the same rate? Their players play plenty of AIL too?
Not many players make the academy straight from school or straight ot of youths rugby. They are selected after a year of Under 20s and AIL rugby. Hey may be highly rated from school but if they don't perform to level expected in AIL then they are not selected. Playing AIL will be there first time playing open grade rugby and adapting to that is huge. The clubs play a huge role in developing the players. Ignoring that is highly ignorant of the clubs. They are a step as much/same as the schools and youths clubs that players played age grade for
All three of those guys effectively moved to Dublin for college and to take up the roles in the Leinster Sub-Academy. Tector & Lasisi's performances for the Irish U20s got them Academy contracts. Prendergast only left school in June 2021. Has he even played 10 games for Lansdowne?
Your facts are wholly incorrect. For example none of the Lansdowne players you refer to were in the academy before they joined Lansdowne. Playing & training with their club actually helped all of them make the academy.
You seem to think that schools players are the finished product and that they don't develop after they leave school which is simply not the case.
They have to adjust to the rigours of senior rugby and hone their craft. Clubs help them do that and improve them as players.
Just because a player has played rugby for a school doesn't mean he had no connection / development with a club. Many of the players you refer to above played Minis and youths rugby with a club for a large part of their school career. A lot of them actually played rugby first in a club rather than their school.
It's also very rare for a school leaver in Leinster to go straight into the academy. They have to demonstrate their worth before they get accepted into the academy and this is typically done by playing with a club.
Why haven't UCD helped develop the 7 players you mention ?
John McKee has played a load of rugby with Old Belvedere before joining Terenure.
Rob Russell is a great case of a player who has been developed by his club Trinity. He was not a prominent schools player.
Ah come on FTD. Can't let facts get in the way of a good old fashioned béal bocht/poor little AIL/ Big Bad Evil Leinster argument.
The last few posts have been like the constant times I've had the ear chewed off me by the alicadoos in my club (some of them are committee members). All lamenting. No solutions.
Yeah, no one is disputing the importance that the players play matches. Leinster's academy players have largely been available to the AIL clubs this season (with the exception of the guys who've been hurt or who've racked up big minutes in the Leinster senior side like John McKee and Rob Russell.
You are hugely under estimating the role that clubs play in Irish rugby. The proposition that the vast majority of these players are schools developed players is hugely disrespectful to all the clubs out there.
I'm not under estimating the role the clubs play, but you're overstating the role these specific clubs have played in this current crop of player's development.
Of the current Leinster Academy, you've 7 lads who's AIL club is UCD. UCD haven't developed those players - in the cases of the players involved they're almost all schools developed players (Jack Boyle - Michaels, Rory McGuire - Blackrock, Diarmuid Mangan - Newbridge, James Culhane - Blackrock, Sean O'Brien - Blackrock, Ben Brownlee - Blackrock & Chris Cosgrave - St Michaels).
The three who are with Lansdowne were only signed to Lansdowne after they joined the Leinster Academy. Of those three; Sam Prendergast came through Newbridge College (and before that Cill Dara RFC), Charlie Tector through Kilkenny College (and I think Enniscorthy) and Temi Lasisi (Enniscorthy RFC).
Of the two Terenure players you've John McKee, who was produced through Campbell College in Belfast, and has played meaningful minutes for Leinster. The other Marcus Hanan is a produce of Clane RFC.
Three are attached to DUFC - where they attend university. They were all schools produced players (Barron - St Michaels, Russell - St Michaels and O'Reilly - St Gerards).
And finally you've three guys with Clontarf - Alex Soroka (developed in Belvedere College), Ben Murphy (Pres Bray) and Andrew Smith (St Michael's).
So in conclusion - not one of the clubs impacted developed any of the current crop of Leinster Academy players. Other clubs did in some instances, but it's predominantly a crop who's development is attributable to the schools system. Clontarf probably have the best argument with Alex Soroka, but he's still predominantly a schools product.
You are hugely under estimating the role that clubs play in Irish rugby. The proposition that the vast majority of these players are schools developed players is hugely disrespectful to all the clubs out there. The vast majority of players have actually developed in the clubs they are with and that has helped them develop into the players that they are and given them solid foundations as professional players. For example how does a prop actually learn how to scrum when the current laws prevailing at schools level inhibit this? If you accept the basic principle that the best way for a young rugby player to get better is to to actually play rugby then the clubs are very important to these players development. Most of the academy players would have precious little game time this season were it not for the clubs giving them the opportunity to play some rugby.
You say that these players are Leinster's first and foremost. Yet Leinster don't pay the wages of uncontracted players (centre of excellence etc) and still look to control their availability regardless.
The final stages of the AIL are probably a molehill for Leinster but they are anything but for Leinster's stakeholders (i.e. the clubs involved) and some recognition of the importance of these fixtures from Leinster is all the clubs are asking for in this instance.
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here. These players are Leinster players first and foremost, and the vast majority of them are schools developed players, so it's not like the clubs have any great claim to them beyond their current registration.
I imagine it is quite clearly understood and acknowledged within the clubs that if you have players on your books who are part of the Leinster Academy or senior Leinster squad then those players primary objective is Leinster, and not the club. They're a nice to have for the clubs when they're available, but ultimately Leinster are paying their wages and free to call upon them as they see fit.
I agree with you that the timing (and short notice) of the fixture aren't ideal, but it is what it is.
Leinster are a professional franchise and any player that plays with them should be contracted to them. If they select from beyond their paid ranks they should at least pre-consult with the clubs concerned and explain the rational behind the selections. This simple protocol is ignored. It's not a lot to ask. In most other professional sports there would also be some sort of financial remuneration.
The fixture against London Irish could have been played on another date that would have allowed players to participate in both sets of games. They chose to clash with the AIL.
The idea that a professional squad of players who train with each other on a daily basis and will tour South Africa together need extra prep in the form of a meaningless fixture against a mixed bag of a London Irish team is an idea propegated by professional coaches who need to justify their existence. The vast majority of these players have trained and played with each other on a regular basis.
You should research the actual amount of game time that all these academy / pro players have actually played this season. It is quite an eye opener.
Leinster are happy to use clubs to gain exposure for "their" players when it suits them best. At what is a critical part of the season for clubs it would be nice if this generosity from the clubs would be reciprocated by Leinster but the London Irish fixture flies in the face of that.
Ah come on - the purpose of this game was that Leinster are going to South Africa with this squad of players, who don't get an opportunity to play together that regularly. The rationale here was to give them a run out together ahead of that.
They obviously get gametime with the AIL clubs (and I think tbf academy players across all four provinces are playing increasing numbers of AIL minutes in recent seasons) but Leinster are focused on getting them to play the type of game Leinster want them to play.
Leinster's first priority is obviously just Leinster. They are doing what they feel is in the best interests of themselves and the player's development. It may sound callous to say they aren't concerned about the clubs and who goes up or down, but I think it's probably accurate.
Who are the uncontracted players you keep referencing? The handful of guys like Cormac Daly, Conall Boomer, Colm Hogan etc who've spent some time training with Leinster this season?
Do you ever consider that for those players, this is exactly what they want too?
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