Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172974#Comment_122172974

You just said, SF should negotiate with any willing party.

If FF and FG are willing in the next GE, then that is what will happen. Why negotiate with a party you dont want to form a government with?

Your carefully crafted, non-answering way of debating is dishonest by the way. We can all see it.

Raoul Duke III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172977#Comment_122172977

The reality is that a SF-FF government would face exactly the same set of political challenges (and opportunities!) as the current FFG one. And would govern with pretty much identical policies too.

The politics of governance (as opposed to shouting from the sidelines in opposition) in Ireland invariably lead back to a squidgy centrism. SF would be no exception, except probably less competent given their total lack of experience in the role.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172997#Comment_122172997

Oh, now you 'think'?

Sorry, but the facts don't back you up.

So, in reality, you concede that SF has never had the opportunity, given the numbers to form a government outside of FF and FG?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173005#Comment_122173005

This.

The more and more people see of SF, the less impressed they are. They have very little talent among their ranks and on key issues they have more or less disappeared.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172999#Comment_122172999

FG won't negotiate with them, and as an FG voter if they change that stance then they lose my vote. The rest probably will but I can't see a realistic scenario where FF is not required for SF to get in.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173005#Comment_122173005

True. But you'd either see a government where SF were "exposed" by not carrying out their pre election promises (non costed of course!), or a government of no change to status quo, or alternatively a government where they borrow us into a mountain of debt and back to the ECB again in an attempt to carry out their uncosted plans. None of that is good for SF.

If I were SF I'd be torn between getting into government now, or, if the data showed we were likely to continue gaining votes going forward, stay in opposition again.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173009#Comment_122173009

SF had the numbers in 2020 for the coalition of the left and independent but chose not to. FF+FG had less than the (then) requisite 80/1 seats.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Irish_general_election#cite_note-91

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173017#Comment_122173017

In addition, on their trump card issue i.e. housing, their policy proposal is so awful that it will crumble with any serious scrutiny. I am amazed that it hasn't been dissected in detail as yet, maybe FF and FG are waiting until closer to the election to blow EOB out of the water. There is a strong campaign to make a similar model illegal in the UK, on the grounds that it is feudal and draconian on the occupier.

It looks to me that SF worked backways on the numbers in terms of building costs. They simply couldn't make the budget work due to land costs so they said 'lets keep the land ownership ourselves and only cost the construction costs'. Absolute fantasy, and totally irresponsible.

Do you want to 'own' a house but not the ground underneath it? Didn't think so.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173076#Comment_122173076

We got rid of ground rent after the british left, thankfully. Some areas in the UK still have this today. A ridiculous concept.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122171318#Comment_122171318

Agreed, when one pejorative term is ruled out, another one is invented. "Cozy relationship" has replaced "power swap".

It does show a serious level of ignorance of Irish history. Anyone who claims to have lived through the 1980s, and witnessed Haughey and Fitzgerald will know beyond a doubt that there was never a cozy relationship between FF and FG.

It all designed to inflame and bait other posters, so best ignored.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122172999#Comment_122172999

Well done on being appointed spokesman for everyone.

A coalition is always a pragmatic compromise. I knew that in the world of realpolitick that FF and FG would, if necessary, coalesce. You could see that when they went into C&S and it was why Micheal felt it necessary to tell voters he would 'never' do it.

Those in the media and political observers saw Michael Martin open the door to a SF coalition and shut it again when he realised he would not get the seats he thought he would to allow him negotiate first go at Taoiseach. He turned to a party with less seats. A party who thought that putting FF in charge was like putting John Delaney back in the FAI.

SF said they will talk to anyone about coalition. They haven't done the sham rhetoric of 'We'll never…'.etc etc

Speaking after meeting the Green Party leader Eamon Ryan on Wednesday, Mrs McDonald said: "I have made it clear since before the election - and after - that I will speak to all parties in the interests of forming a government; starting with those th a mandate for change.

Ideally, they wouldn't want to form a coalition, no party would.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173009#Comment_122173009

Sinn Fein did have the numbers in 2020 to form a government without FF and FG.

Sinn Fein = 37

Green = 12

Labour = 6

Social Democrats = 6

Solidarity = 5

Aontu = 1

Independents for Change = 1

That gives 68 seats. Adding 12 of the 19 independents would give a majority.

There was one huge problem though. Sinn Fein didn't make any serious effort to form such a government, to the extent that Solidarity made public a letter excorciating SF on this issue.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173009#Comment_122173009

I don't think (I don't know what the SF view on this is) that a government of other parties had a chance of stability, no.

A smart move IMO. For the country and themselves.

I have said before, I don't think they should enter a government here if they cannot negotiate a satisfactory programme for government.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173084#Comment_122173084

eh?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/state-making-ground-rent-payments-on-53-properties-1.572436

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173143#Comment_122173143

I thought the prior act abolished it and that the purchase scheme ended it. For private property anyway.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173171#Comment_122173171

We didn't 'get rid of ground rent after the British left'.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173171#Comment_122173171

Yes, new houses built after 1978 don't have ground rent as it was abolished. You are correct.

Where it exists prior to 1978, there is a right to buy it out.

You are substantially correct that ground rent has been abolished for private housing.

A nitpicking pedantic response that distorted the truth and confused the issue was what you got back from that poster.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173210#Comment_122173210

The British 'left' in 1978?

Who knew.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173199#Comment_122173199

Well 1978 was after the british left. Now, I don't see why you're being so obfuscatory here

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173300#Comment_122173300

😁
Look, you said 'we got rid of ground rent after the British left'. You didn't specify.
Despite the 'substantially right' defence, we didn't get rid of them, ground rents are still paid, you posted wrong info.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173105#Comment_122173105

Do you agree with a leasehold model for housing?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173300#Comment_122173300

Par for the course. Ground rents for private housing, a relic from older days, have been abolished since the British left. Denying that reality is silliness.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173507#Comment_122173507

Not generally. If defined for certain types of property and the leaseholder is not a private investor, I think it could work.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173543#Comment_122173543

Ground rents for private housing,

The poster didn't say that. Give it up. 🙄

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122173074#Comment_122173074

The idea of a left coalition is fantasy. In the first instance, PBP/RISE will never enter government. They exist to protest and pontificate, the idea of governing or compromising is anathema to them. Paul Murphy is one of the only TDs to criticise the Hate Speech bill, but realistically he would have no problem with the state using the law against those who disagree with them, he just knows he'll never ever be in government to exercise that power himself.

The on top of that, how could Sinn Féin and the Greens agree to govern when Sinn Féin oppose just about every environmental policy the government brings in? They'll always claim the environment is a top priority for them, but that the steps taken to reduce emissions, or protect wildlife shouldn't involve any effort or change on anyone's part. Sinn Féin aim for the "D4 bike riding Greens are out to kill real rural Ireland" vote; one of the their top TDs described the prospect of the Greens losing all their seats in the next election as the "best case scenario".

Then you've Labour, the SDs, Aontú who'll all have their own demands too.

But even if they'd overcame those issues and united all the parties other than FF and FG in a coalition, they'd have needed 13 Independents to get the slimmest possible majority. A majority which would always be on a knife edge and where all it'd take to collapse the government would be for a single disgruntled TD from any of the 10+ factions in the coalition to defect.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176078#Comment_122176078

The Greens would have no problems with a SF coalition. They'd do what they are doing now, moralise and pontificate to everyone else and turn a blind eye when it comes to holding onto to their comfy seats in government.

Of all our political class I disrespect them most tbh.

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176781#Comment_122176781

😂

Yes a political party which set out an agenda and then tries it's best as a small partner to deliver on that agenda, the agenda which people voted them in for

Of course you disrespect them 😂

Hilarious

Better off idolising a party of incompetence from top to bottom

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176785#Comment_122176785

Yeah, the good republicans hate the Greens because the Greens stand by their principles. The Greens will leave this government with some solid achievements - Metrolink, Dart Plus, BusConnects, carbon tax increases, Climate Action Act, retrofitting grant schemes, childcare improvements, traffic changes in Dublin City - all core priorities of the party. The Greens won't be bothered by losing seats, because they will have achieved real permanent change.

The good republicans in Sinn Fein are in the process of selling out on every single principle they ever had - anyone remember the years of opposing the Special Criminal Court for example? They have one core priority - Brits Out - and if they go into government, progress towards this core priority is likely to go backwards.

The Greens therefore are the complete opposite of Sinn Fein.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176785#Comment_122176785

then tries it's best 

Really? I'll let a former Green Party member explain it:

The Green Party over the last two decades is devoid of strong principled leadership, just at a time when it is really needed. There is an ethos of compromise and playing the game, whatever the politics of the day. There is an ideology that the Green Party can be all things to all people. A sense that the party is lucky if it can get into government, and no matter what main party is in the driving seat, we can tack on to it and get some of our policies adopted, like a sucker-fish alongside a great white shark. We are the ‘tack-on party’, never to be leaders, always the scapegoats for anti-green outrage and at the same time a supplier of the best stolen ideas.

They'll 'tack themselves on' to whosoever offers them comfortable seats. They'd have no dilemma entering a SF coalition in other words.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-im-leaving-green-party-conor-coady/

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122176831#Comment_122176831

Wiped out in the 2011 GE and looking like another one at the next GE. I think they are 'hated' by more than republicans and Sinn Fein TBH

blanch152

In my previous post I noted that the Greens won't be bothered by losing seats, because they have achieved real permanent change. Power doesn't matter to them if they can't achieve change.

Sinn Fein are the new Fianna Fail, the achievement of power is the objective, not the welfare of the people, not the future of the country. Each and every policy is up for changing if that is the populist way. From penal tax increases, to the Special Criminal Court, to open borders for everyone, Sinn Fein has changed its policies over the last few years, all in a desperate attempt to achieve power. Not just changed its policies, after all, every political party makes adjustments in policy from time to time, but Sinn Fein have completed huge u-turns, following the people, not leading them.

Real leadership is about bringing change when it is the right thing to do, and now wavering from that. The Greens have demonstrated that leadership throughout this government, while Sinn Fein have done the opposite.

The Greens will lose seats in the next election but they will be back. More importantly, the legacy of their achievements this time around will live on.