Sinn Fein and how do they form a government dilemma

I'd have though FF and FG cooperating healed relationships,wheres the toxicity ?

I'm confused

It would consign them to opposition again untill at least 2030 on recent trends as the current government would get reelected though wouldn't it

Yes, if a GE returned the last poll results, I think FF/FG and others would be too tempted to not change (although I still think another coalition of the two will provoke internal strife in FF)

I'd also still put a lot of store in an actual election campaign.

WRONG.
Read posts properly please:

But it is my opinion (sorry you disagree with it) that the fact that power swapped between just two parties (through no sinister manipulating or fault of their own) led to the situation we have had for quite a while. Two parties who are essentially the same, in a cozy relationship which has led to a level of toxicity in Irish politics and governance.

Two parties who are essentially the same, in a cozy relationship which has led to a level of toxicity in Irish politics

Elaborate on the bit in bold please.

By reaching the requisite numbers in a GE.
And then via negotiation of a palatable programme for government.

There is such a thing as a coalition between two different parties where they agree to compromise on policy principles. Nothing wrong with a proper respectful coalition. The parties can go their separate ways after, integrity intact. The tendency in the coalitions we have had to date here has been the minor party scapegoated and sundered at the polling booth.

The coming together of FF and FG after years of 'civil war' politics didn't happen overnight. I think they grew comfortable and complacent about their dominance, and they grew more and more alike bar the sham fighting.
That was what I was referring to when I said 'cozy relationship'.
As I said they knew either would not be out of power long if they kept it up.
The emergence of an opposition capable of forming a government without them, easily joined them together. The sham was over, a key change on the Irish political landscape.
Is the above pejorative? Maybe, so what? Plenty of political parties here are referenced pejoratively.

SF could go the same way, who knows. I'll recognise it if I see it happening though.

The emergence of an opposition capable of forming a government without them,

When was this now?

IMO the rise of SF forced FF and FG to coalesce. I think they had become so close ideologically and the 'I'll never coalesce with FG' rhetoric was essentially a bluff it was an easy thing to do.

The difficult bit is incoming - how do they now sell something different to the electorate. The next GE will be fascinating from that point of view. Have they inadvertently welded themselves together for all time or will there be a push internally to try make them distinct political entities again.

So, SF were capable of forming a government in 2020..

With who?

And why didnt that happen?

A government was formed between three parties. Two parties had less seats than SF and a third had the same amount. Pre-election, two of those parties rubbished the idea of them coalescing with each other, one ruling it out forever.

Two of those parties would not negotiate with SF, the numbers or stability was not there to form a government without one of those two, so SF were not capable of forming a government.

Thanks for the history lesson, but you still didn't answer the question.

You stated categorically that SF had the ability to form a government without FF and FG.

capable of forming a government without them,

When was this and why did it not happen?

I find it ironic that the rise of SF puts FF essentially in the position of kingmaker. When we get a result with 30-35% SF and 30-35% FG, FF can decide who to put in government. SF enabling "change" by going into coalition with FF would be hilarious and on one hand would be great as it would truly show the electorate that SF are about as much for change as anyone else.

You just said, SF should negotiate with any willing party.

If FF and FG are willing in the next GE, then that is what will happen. Why negotiate with a party you dont want to form a government with?

Your carefully crafted, non-answering way of debating is dishonest by the way. We can all see it.

Oh, now you 'think'?

Sorry, but the facts don't back you up.

So, in reality, you concede that SF has never had the opportunity, given the numbers to form a government outside of FF and FG?

FG won't negotiate with them, and as an FG voter if they change that stance then they lose my vote. The rest probably will but I can't see a realistic scenario where FF is not required for SF to get in.

True. But you'd either see a government where SF were "exposed" by not carrying out their pre election promises (non costed of course!), or a government of no change to status quo, or alternatively a government where they borrow us into a mountain of debt and back to the ECB again in an attempt to carry out their uncosted plans. None of that is good for SF.

If I were SF I'd be torn between getting into government now, or, if the data showed we were likely to continue gaining votes going forward, stay in opposition again.