Fall of the Catholic Church

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045314#Comment_119045314

So in no publicly funded school in Ireland is religion teaching compulsory? Is this what you're saying?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045347#Comment_119045347

 I also understand why you would suggest that no right-minded person would disagree with your opinion

I never said that so your reading comprehension is broken.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045337#Comment_119045337

They are one big group? I never argued otherwise.

It’s you that’s arguing that the one big group tacitly supports child abuse, but they don’t, but they are responsible, but they’re not, but they are guilty, and there are different levels of guilt, and somehow those people who were abused as children who don’t dissociate themselves from the Catholic Church are responsible, but they’re not guilty, but they tacitly support child abuse, ad nauseum.

I’m not the person who can’t make up their mind.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045356#Comment_119045356

The teaching is, but student participation isn't. That's regardless of who the patron for the school is.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045391#Comment_119045391

So, children and parents can just opt out with no problem?

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045346#Comment_119045346

And you are completely free to have whatever belief that you wish. But your belief should not be forced onto others. That is the point. You are completely free to go to mass, bible studies, retreats, have your baptisms, confessions etc etc.

But none of that should be held in schools or indeed have any impact on public life. Thats all it is about.

By all means hold classes on it, and all the other main religions, and discuss non religion. I have no problem with schools holding religion studies classes. Where a full study of the pros and cons of all religions is taught. But atm we are forcing children to either learn only about catholic religion, or exclude themselves from class activities.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045364#Comment_119045364

This was my previous post, addressing yours, the point I’m referring to in bold:

You can certainly choose to look at it that way if you like, but I look at it differently - the issue with any organisation is child molesters and paedophiles among their ranks. That’s even before it gets to the point where there is an entirely different issue to deal with.

no rightminded person would have anything to do with them

Only the most feeble-minded idiot would support your position.

I know you see what I did there.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045425#Comment_119045425

so nothing about disagreeing with my opinion then.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045408#Comment_119045408

Yeah. And it's fairly normal too. I talk with him about it every now and then to see how feels about it as its perfectly reasonable to think they could be feeling cast aside. Which is why I commented earlier it's not really about the schools. I need to be the one involved with him on it.

Leroy42

..

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045439#Comment_119045439

Your position is that in your opinion no right minded person would want anything to do with them.

It’s not unreasonable to extrapolate from there that you’re suggesting anyone who disagrees with your opinions and doesn’t dissociate themselves from the organisation on the basis of your opinions, is not a right minded person.

It’s just not a very convincing argument in any case.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045481#Comment_119045481

Just think about it. Imagine you weren't catholic. And someone sat you down and explained the history of the catholic church in Ireland to you as you contemplated whether to join a religion and if so which one. The continuing misogyny, lack of transparency, claims to operate to different laws. Child rape and abuse, cover ups, destroying evidence and using their power position to avoid investigation.

Would you really think it a good idea to get involved in such an organisation?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045530#Comment_119045530

My first thought would be that I’d want nothing to do with an individual who expressed those opinions. Their biases are blatantly obvious.

That’s about it really.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119044745#Comment_119044745

Only for the Church a lot of people would have got no education. That’s the reality.

That's complete nonsense but a lot of people in Ireland very foolishly believe it, which kinda calls the quality of that education into question somewhat... you certainly wouldn't have got a balanced view of Irish history in a school run by an RCC religious order.

Ireland has had taxpayer-funded primary education since the 19th century. Before England had it in fact. And this is the reason we, to this day, call these schools "NATIONAL schools".

As the church has declined abortion culture has increased, so not only can the Church not provide education to these unfortunate people, they never even make it into the world.

Bizarre comment but also completely incorrect, there was no abortion (except on the point of maternal death, and sometimes not even then) in Ireland until three years ago. The church has been in serious decline for at least thirty years now (and vocations went into very steep decline starting in the early 1970s.)

Hopefully the church will be restored soon, the election of Biden is interesting.

wtf? Biden may be a catholic but he supports abortion rights. Just because somebody follows a religion it doesn't follow that they think it's OK to use the law to impose the doctrines of their religion upon everyone.

That's how things worked until quite recently in Ireland, but among developed countries that's really abnormal.

The USA was supposed to have been founded on the principle of religious tolerance (no sniggering at the back, please) after all. And this thread is about Ireland... where one church still controls 89% of primary schools despite not paying a cent towards running them, and most of the remainder are controlled by another church...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045391#Comment_119045391

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045408#Comment_119045408

Opting out shouldn't be nessecary. Opting-IN should be.

Leroy42

Haha, so shoot the messenger. They are not opinions, all of it are facts.

Misogyny - are women allowed to become priests? On what basis?

Lack of transparency - have the church opened up all the records? No

Claims to operate to different laws. Papal law is seen as overriding local law.

Child rape and abuse, cover ups, destroying evidence and using their power position to avoid investigation. - You can't honestly be saying you don't think this didn't happen

Why would you not at least investigate what you were told, research it. and you would see for yourself that nothing that you were told (or that I stated in my post) was incorrect.

And one would have to consider why you would brush off all of that on the basis of no information, except of course that it is you that is biased.

You refuse to face the reality of the situation. What is incorrect about what I posted?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045639#Comment_119045639

Sure but in Ireland, I suppose one must make do with what is available.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045481#Comment_119045481

yeah, I'm still going with the lack of reading comprehension.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045139#Comment_119045139

The schools are their last stand and they're well aware of that.

It does bother me that the only choice we had for our kids was "Bullshít Brand A" or "Bullshít Brand B" but at least Brand B, being the minority one, we found substantially less arrogant about what their position in society should be. In effect they're a minority within the school they control, and that's been the case for years.

RCC, at least, is actively trying to make its schools "more catholic" as their "conversion ratio" of communion makers to adult church attenders putting money on the plate is almost nil. Such as by introducing the highly controversial "Flourish" programme. But the more they try to do this the more pushback they will get from teachers and parents who are happy with paying, at best, lip service to religion in school i.e. get the two big days out out of it for the least amount of hassle and effort.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045610#Comment_119045610

bias against an organisation that enabled child molestors and those that are happy to turn a blind eye to what the church did? what a monster I am.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045250#Comment_119045250

"It didn't happen to me, therefore it doesn't happen" is really not a very clever deduction to make. For starters not all schools HAVE another class.

Our kids didn't attend weekly religious service, but that meant dropping them into school later every Friday morning. Many working parents would find that difficult or impossible. The whole school goes to the church so no alternative supervision is provided.

Cluedo Monopoly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045530#Comment_119045530

Good question. The fact is that most a la carte Catholic parents would be absolutely horrified if their son declared he was joining the priesthood or their daughter was joining the nuns.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045346#Comment_119045346

Most of that post is barely comprehensible, but the argument, such as it is, falls at the first hurdle. The proportion of even nominal catholic "box tickers" aka "bouncy castle catholics" in the last census is far below the 89% of schools that church controls. In this year's census it will no doubt be lower again. And the proportion of parents ticking the catholic box is lower still.

Only about 40% of couples getting married choose an RCC wedding despite it being the only traditionally and socially accepted option here. If they actively choose to swerve a church wedding we can reasonably surmise they've no great love for religious dominated education either. Where are the non-catholic schools for their kids going to be?

Far from "not being represented", Catholics are vastly over-represented in how this country's education and health systems operate - and a highly conservative doctrinaire strand of Catholicism at that, which is simply not representative of the beliefs and attitudes of the majority of Irish Catholics today.

Religion should be a personal choice, but it isn't when 95% of schools are pushing it on your kids (RCC + CoI)

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045654#Comment_119045654

It’s not a case of shooting the messenger at all. You asked me to imagine if I wasn’t Catholic, so if I were interested in Catholicism, it would stand to reason that I’d ask a Catholic what’s that all about. It seems unlikely that they would have the same ideas of Catholicism as you do.

It’s for this reason I don’t question why people who share your opinions would enrol their children in Catholic schools. I’m guessing they’re enrolling their children in Catholic schools because they want their children to be educated. I don’t think anyone enrols their children in any school to be abused, nor do I think anyone who enrols their children in Catholic schools or enrols their children in any activity, is doing so with the intention of having their children abused, nor do I imagine it means they tacitly or otherwise support any form of child abuse.

The reason I’d want to disassociate myself from anyone who espoused the opinions you do is because you sound miserable. I’m sure you’re not and you’re genuinely sound out and all, but if I were to ask someone their opinion of you and they told me all you do is go on about the Catholic Church and child abuse and how the Catholic Church is this, that and the other, I’d be dissociating myself from them too, because they sound miserable.

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045639#Comment_119045639

The school being Catholic or not doesn't matter. Even in an Educate Together school, it's still opt out.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045684#Comment_119045684

It could be Brand A, Brand B, Brand C, or Brand A+B+C. There is no means to select a school in this country at all that is secular. So instead of being angry about it, my efforts are much better placed in discussing it with my son. Even though he is in a catholic school, there is very little catholicism actually going on other than the religious books being bias towards it. All the sacraments are outside of school hours. He is in 2nd class now and has never once seen a priest in the school.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045680#Comment_119045680

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045687#Comment_119045687

Clearly 😂

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045714#Comment_119045714

That sounds like an issue that should be taken up with the Dept. of Education. The school is meant to be responsible for the child during school hours and they are meant to cater for children who aren't participating in religious activities.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045408#Comment_119045408

Perhaps - depending on the attitude of the teacher and principal - and if they're on hand at a moment's notice to withdraw their child from class mass, priest visit etc. as no alternative supervision is provided. The norm is that children sit at the back of the class and do colouring... Religious instruction in Irish primary schools takes up approximately 10% of all classroom hours!

Dravokivich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045767#Comment_119045767

It sounds a lot like what ever school you've had kids in, is the problem. They shouldn't be doing that. Do they not have Muslim or Jewish kids? It's very poor on their part to be putting you out in the manner they are.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119045314#Comment_119045314

Except those who are told to sit quietly and do some colouring during religion time. Or those who are told that their working parents need to take them out of school if they don’t want them to attend.