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How can we curtail bus lane misuse

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,092 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    Fixed camera enforcement at blackspots plus bus mounted cameras will resolve the issue, no need for public involvement. The thing is we're due an 'update' on fixed camera enforcement at the end of the year and bus mounted cameras are an aspiration. The state doesn't want to play the role of enforcer. It's not just traffic rules though, basically every rule in this country is ignored. Irish culture is basically 'ah shure it'll be grand'. I mean have you been to Dublin City Centre? gangs of 100+ youths in north face jackets are permitted to attack people at will, chances of getting a bus lane enforced are slim in that context.

    AS for 24/7 bus lanes, meh. I can see how they're needed in some stretches like the quays but my preference would be to ban cars from using the quays as a through route altogether.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Yeah I'll just pop the taxi in the back carriage shall I



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    As someone who seems to be incensed by the topic, and further, as someone who has accused others of not thinking things through, have a think there and think whether there are any other options than the false dichotomy you present

    (hint - there are already many private bus owners operating services all around the country)



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Same as I'm comparing the theoretical bus capacity being at maximum, your point being, what exactly?



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Maybe you'd like zero bus lanes? Might not work out the best for your taxi-ing if ya wanna be working in the city.


    But I like where you are going with this. Lets remove all benefits to public transport options that can be said to disadvantage the private motorist. Start putting parking meters and general parking for anyone on those prime sites currently allocated for taxi ranks.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder



    you appear to be saying that, say, a bus that leaves once every 90 minutes and takes 75 minutes to reach its destination is no better or worse than one which leaves every 90 minues but takes say 60 minutes to reach its destination.

    for someone who claims to run a public transport service, you need to get to know PT customers better.

    i meant break times were irrelevant to the debate, not that break times are irrelevant to the driver. sorry i needed to explain that to you.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    are you being serious? it's wilfully disingenuous to pack the car lanes with cars in your example, without packing the bus lanes with buses too. you're not drawing circles with your arguments, you're gerrymandering.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Doesn't worry me in the slightest, If I'm in traffic with a passenger they are the ones who pay. Anyway according to the OP ( who seems to have gone MIA ) he wants to ban taxis from bus lanes unless they have a passenger/going to collect a fare. So perhaps we can get back onto the topic of " Should bus lanes all be 24 hours" for your convenience I have reposted the OP



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Yeah. They should be 24/7. There is zero reason not to be. It would assist the slow learners who currently don't appear to be able to figure out how to read a clock.


    Buses run until probably midnight for most routes (24 hours out your direction btw). How often have you found yourself stuck in traffic at 4am in the morning?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,796 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    To pick up on one thing there, there is no reason why a taxi should be allowed in a bus lane when carrying a passenger (given that a regular car with two passengers can't use it).

    Either way, they defo should not be allowed use a bus lane when travelling to collect a fare. This leaves the system completely open to abuse as it is difficult to prove that they are not collecting a fare.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,092 ✭✭✭ cgcsb


    No such thing as roads big enough, in the USA 18 lane motorways aren't big enough for the traffic they attract.

    As for a car ban, absolutely there should be car bans in city centres, I'd say you've gone a bit far though in a total ban. But maybe you're on to something, imagine how wealthy Ireland would be if we didn't export hundreds of billions of euros to oil producing and car manufacturing countries every year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    No it's not, Seth is saying that it's not the bus lanes causing congestion but the people using cars, so isn't it reasonable to assume that there are quite a number of cars in the remaining traffic lanes.

    Anyway I deliberately used a 5kph figure, to signify rush hour traffic, but if you like let's use a more realistic 30Kph and 10m headway, seems about right for mid day traffic. Still gives you 3000 vehicles an hour capacity, about the same or in excess of the PT figure.

    Let's take it another step further with your wanting to pack the bus lanes with buses, average speed, allowing for dwell times at stops. Less than the 5kph for cars I would think, maybe as low as 2-3 Kph. You see there is a cut off point with the number of buses where PT doesn't work at all.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Anyway I deliberately used a 5kph figure, to signify rush hour traffic, but if you like let's use a more realistic 30Kph and 10m headway, seems about right for mid day traffic. Still gives you 3000 vehicles an hour capacity, about the same or in excess of the PT figure.

    seriously, you're just confusing yourself. you're throwing out figures and i haven't a clue what your argument is.

    bottom line, i pointed out a road with a bus lane and two car lanes, and you seem to be arguing that the bus lane should be reverted to a normal car lane? or what's your point?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    if you're arguing that two cars lanes is more efficient than one bus lane, i reckon you don't know what the word 'efficient' means.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,796 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    Hang on a second. You now seem to be trying to pit me against MB. When a claim was put forward that bus lanes cause congestion, I contradicted that and stated the fact that they do not cause congestion. People sitting in their cars are the ones who cause it. When those people drive on, the congestion is also gone despite the bus lane still being there!



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    anyway some more understandable figures; you don't need to worry about speed or headway, it's as simple as the rule of thumb that there should be a two second gap to the vehicle in front. so for a car lane that'd be a max of 1800 vehicles per hour; let's say about 2500 pax in total for normal rush hour car occupancy.

    for a bus lane to achieve the same number of pax, that's one full bus every two and a half minutes or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    So now you're saying when there's no traffic, there's no congestion. Kind of obvious eh?

    Where as I believe you were referring to whomitconcerns post about congestion being caused when there were few buses in need of a 24 hour lane, indeed people would be using their cars because there were very few buses at the time they were talking about



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    anyway, it's kinda funny, there's another thread about speed limits where there are people arguing an 'out of my cold, dead hands' stance to max speed limits on motorways (an 'it'll take me 40 minutes longer to drive round trip to cork!' approach), but we've one poster here arguing the opposite, that PT getting you to your destination faster isn't actually a positive aspect for PT.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    So you reckon that in rush hour traffic, what's the average speed in Dublin now a days 10Kph or something you need a 2 second gap or approx 5.5 meters, you are really trolling now.

    Anyways how many FULL buses do you see every two and a half minutes, I certainly never see them. Even on the rare occasions that I have had eye drops for a retinal scan and stood at a bus stop



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,796 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    This is wearisome - it's like trying to educate a puddle.

    One last time for the slow learner: if there is a queue of cars along a road, the only ones causing that queue is the people sitting in those cars.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    It's not a positive aspect if it means you have to wait 20 mins for the bus instead of 15 mins because there aren't enough buses in the system



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump


    Your logic is funny. It's a bit like me saying sure I can do 50kph from Whitehall to Drumcondra at 4am and then working out the maximum number of cars per hour that can travel that road at 5pm during the day based on all going at 50kph.

    Do you understand that the reasons cars go slower at "rush hour" is precisely because there are so many of them? It isn't just a thing they decided to all do themselves - "Lets all go at 5kph between the hours of 5 an 7".

    You're trying to argue a non-rush hour speed and linearly scale up to rush hour volumes. If you are a taxi-driver, one would expect you might have encountered the concept of traffic before



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    And to throw yet more pearls before swine, you are equating stationary traffic as congestion, whereas stationary traffic is a jam.

    If the traffic is moving,even at an average 5kph, it has a throughput of 2000 vehicles an hour, and you call me slow, I think your brains have suffered from sitting on the saddle too much. Perhaps you should leave the cycle at home and catch a bus to give your brains a rest



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,511 ✭✭✭ whippet


    You are conflicting cause and symptoms ... road traffic will always be around if it is private cars, taxis, buses, ambulances, garda cars, fire engines, delivery vans, trucks ... cars and private cars will also be needed - not every journey can be completed by walking, cycling, taxi, bus, train, scooter or horse. Yes it is true that people sitting in cars are the cause of congestion - much like people lying in hospital beds are the cause of hospital over crowding.

    So looking at both problems - the cancel culture for anyone not having a go at private car drivers wouldn't wash with people having a go at patients in a hospital. But in both cases the problems are caused by lack of infrastructure, alternatives etc. I spent the guts of 15 year commuting to work in Dublin from 50km away - there was zero alternative for me to not be part of the problem sitting on the M50 ... the only PT option for me was two trains and a bus .. in to the city centre and back out to the M50 region (approx 3 hours each way) . 15 years later the options are still the same - so sitting on the M50 for 90mins was a better alternative

    How did I get away from being another number on the M50 ... our company realised that the infrastructure wasn't going to get better and moved to remote working options 5 years ago.

    So rather than kick the patient in the bed - how about looking at how we stop this nonsense of everyone needing to be in the same few square miles at the same time every day .. even by cutting down 30% of commuter traffic the infrastructure we have would move easier.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Is your motivation to ask for your own job to change to more work-from-home or to ask everyone else to change to work from home so that you can travel your 50km more quickly?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,548 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    And one would have thought that you might at least check the links so kindly posted by myself that allows you to put the speed and headway etc. in to calculate for you the actual throughput of vehicles for any given speed etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,306 ✭✭✭ martingriff


    Given the majority of drivers can not do the basic things as in stop when a light is red. Ignore traffic light when there is a queue as you believe its your turn and not go through a junction if you can't make it clean through I can't see them been any better to understand when and when not a lane is a bus lane and for that I say keep them 24 hour.

    When I was young I was in Lourde's in the South of France every month a one way street would reverse directions and all signs changed over night. We try that here and all traffic would have a crash.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,511 ✭✭✭ whippet


    absolutely not - I did the 90% of work from home for a number of years (before Covid made it trendy!!) ... and when I did have to go to customers / office I generally left the house after 10am when the traffic was much easier.

    I've since started a new job - 5km from home and I cycle when the weather allows or drive in the EV. What 15 years of mindless commuting taught me is how stupid the concept of everyone piling in to the same place at the same time everyday !

    There are options for a very significant proportion of the work force not to commute at the same time every day.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,145 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    You should learn to use your own brain rather than blindly using some online calculator that you don't understand how it works. I mean in the sense that it is a black box.

    I can go to some link, put in 50kph and figure out how many cars can get from Drumcondra to Clonskeagh. Let's say DCU to UCD. Perhaps you have never driven in the city centre, but google maps is telling me at the minute that the fastest (not shortest) route from DCU to UCD is 45 mins for 12.5km. Basically 10mph. There is no point in me putting in 50km into your calculator.

    You could send all the drivers your online link to explain to them why they should be going at 50kph instead. As soon as they get the calculator, they'll undoubtedly go faster.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,334 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    pearls before swine? if you've 2000 vehicles passing a point every hour, that's one every 1.8s. in 1.8s, doing 5km/h, the car doesn't even have enough time to *move its own length* let alone cover the gap to the car in front too.

    a car - anything - doing 5km/h will cover 2.5m in 1.8s. your calculation is off by a factor of four; if you allow a 5m per car and a 5m gap, the max throughput is about 500 cars per hour, not 2000.

    look at it another way - your 2000 cars will be a row of cars ~20km long (allowing for a 5m gap). a 20km row travelling at 5km/h will take 4 hours to all pass the same point, not one hour.

    back to 6th class maths with you.



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