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How can we curtail bus lane misuse

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,742 ✭✭✭✭ B.A._Baracus


    Op, honestly it sounds like you wanna just go around recording people "breaking the law" - like those sad pric*ks who you see on YouTube.

    Of all the issues in the world, you talk about 24 hour bus lanes and getting cameras to catch people using them.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,828 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    Is this thread wrecked or can we get back on topic? 😏



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭ maestroamado


    That,s actually a very good point... maybe a congestion charge for working people where public transport available...

    How successfully is park and ride working in Dublin and in other cities...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    i wonder how many bus lanes are not 24 hour bus lanes not because it makes sense to allow cars to drive in them off peak, but to allow people to park in them off peak?

    there are some examples i can think of not far from me where a bus lane on a major road in and out of the city has parking spaces painted in it, theoretically accessible only when the bus lane is not in operation.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    TBH I've never understood the bus lanes where they revert to traffic lanes between 10.00 am and 12.00am or whatever hours but dealing with 24 hour bus lanes still begs the question how many 24 hour bus routes are there? If a bus route isn't 24 hours then why make the bus lane 24 hours?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    A tad chicken and egg don't you think.

    Theoretical Example

    You have full 2 traffic lanes, 200 cars, max capacity is 200 cars if you remove one of those lanes and make a bus lane, without giving an alternative for commuters, then you increase congestion. And I've yet to see whenever a bus lane is made that a transport company has invested in more buses to provide that service.

    Now I just KNOW that you and others are going to carp on about buying a bicycle but not every commuter wants to commute by bicycle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ JayPS 2288


    For fit, healthy and able bodied people there is simply no excuse to drive if your commute is 5 km or less and you’ve nothing to carry to / from work. Even then bicycles can have racks attached.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie




  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ JayPS 2288




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  • Registered Users Posts: 270 ✭✭ JayPS 2288


    Congestion IS decreased.

    A Dublin bus filled to capacity holds 100 people.

    A car filled to capacity holds 5 people.

    A bus occupies roughly 2.5 times the same length as a car.

    Even 2.5 fully occupied cars will only carry 12.5 people in the same space a bus could potentially carry 100. Buses are therefore 8 times more efficient.

    Most cars however, are single occupancy. And let’s assume the bus is only half filled. That’s 2.5 people in the same space as 50 people. That makes the bus 20 times more efficient.

    Even 2.5 cars filled to capacity is still less efficient than a 1/8 filled bus.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,206 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    One possible alternative, and give me a chance here because I know it's not an obvious one but try to see if you can figure it out.

    But you could also use a bus rather than a bicycle. There being a bus lane and all. I know it might be difficult to wrap your head around it.

    They are big yokes with wheels. Big long things. Called Buses. With wheels.





  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,828 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    You have full 2 traffic lanes, 200 cars, max capacity is 200 cars if you remove one of those lanes and make a bus lane, without giving an alternative for commuters, then you increase congestion.

    Ah but you've made a conditional example - one where an alternative isn't provided. There is an alternative for commuters tough - free flowing busses! In additon, as I previously said, the bus lane did not cause congestion. Whilst it may have reduced the amount of space available to other vehicles, many people made an informed choice to drive which would have caused the congestion. Similarly many others will use the opportunity to use the free flowing busses. In your example, 200 people made the choice to drive because the bus service was not great (presumably the busses were stuck in traffic). When you create bus lanes, many people now have the choice to leave the car and use the bus. So after the bus lane introduction, there will not be 200 cars.

    Given that you have heard all of this before, you really do seem determined to make sure that alternative modes of transport are not given a chance and that roads are filled to the max with cars (as per your example)! It is a narrow minded perspective and thankfully one that is becoming more and more diminutive. 

    And I've yet to see whenever a bus lane is made that a transport company has invested in more buses to provide that service.

    Really? One example is Dublin Bus. Have you not heard of BusConnects, a plan to increase the number of bus lanes and overhaul the number of bus routes and increase the number of busses?

    You've been told this in other threads - did you not read them?

    Now I just KNOW that you and others are going to carp on about buying a bicycle but not every commuter wants to commute by bicycle.

    I don't think I've even mentioned cycling or bike or whatever in this thread but good attempt at shouting down people who you disagree with.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    if you remove one of those lanes and make a bus lane, without giving an alternative for commuters,

    not sure if i understand - you create a bus lane to provide an alternative, without providing an alternative?

    you mention 'space for 200 cars' - or in other words, if two full buses use it, you've probably already equalled the car capacity (based on typical rush hour commuting occupancy)



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,206 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Photos are:


    1) 35 cars


    2) The 35 drivers of those cars



    3) A bus with 35 passengers


    4) A mix of the above




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    As is usual, people don't actually think their arguments through. Putting a bus lane in doesn't equate to better PT unless you invest in more buses. How long should a bus user wait for a bus 30 mins? 15 Mins? 5 mins? How do you provide a shorter interval time except by having more buses. Ah you say, but the buses are getting to their destinations quicker therefore they can make more journeys, however, you neglect to factor in driver fatigue and break times. So back to the basic premise of if you want better PT you can't just make bus lanes and hope it will work.

    As to bus connects, renaming your routes as H1,H2,H3 or C whatever number you first think off doesn't equate to a better service without additional buses, where I live, we brought 26 years ago and was told the DART will be running to Balbriggan in 5-10 years, guess what, they are still selling houses off the plans with the promise of the DART being onto Balbriggan in the next 10 years or so, so I wouldn't be holding my breath waiting on new buses to fulfill the PT need any time soon. Maybe before the DART gets extended but not soon.


    Now on to the capacity argument. How many cars (regardless of occupancy) can pass a bus stop in the time it takes 4 scheduled buses to pass the same stop. Lets do some simple math so that you can understand.

    Bus carries 95 passengers (most popular model in DB fleet according to Wiki, B5TL Euro 6 ) so let's run that at FULL capacity and a 15 min service interval, which would mean past a given point you could move a maximum 380 Pax (95x4). Now assuming you haven't squashed all the cars into a single lane to accommodate the bus, how many cars with single occupancy can you move past a given point?

    According to https://www.omnicalculator.com/everyday-life/traffic-density

    If we allow a 5kph speed and headway (distance between vehicles) your throughput is in the region of 2500 vehicles an hour, now I do realise that it doesn't necessarily equate in real life with traffic lights, cyclists, poor drivers etc. causing stop start traffic conditions but it's NOT as clear cut as you like to make out.

    Anyways after you lot dragging it off topic ( YET AGAIN) what advantage is there to 24 hour bus lanes without the 24 hour bus service to use them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Put those numbers into something like https://www.omnicalculator.com/everyday-life/traffic-density and see how many people actually move past a given point rather than stand/sit for a staged photograph.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,656 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    For the record, there are seven 24 hour Dublin City PSO routes so far:

    15, 39a, 41, C1, C2, C5 and C6.

    With each phase of the BusConnects network being rolled out, more will be added across the city.

    There are other services operated by Bus Éireann and private operators that operate during the night.

    Regarding the rationale for the 10:00-12:00 break in bus lane operating hours, I always understood it to be to facilitate deliveries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    How long do you think before all routes are 24 hour? and given the lack of traffic between the hours of 10 pm and 4 am do you see a need for 24 hour bus lanes?



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭ $hifty


    Putting a bus lane in doesn't equate to better PT ...........but the buses are getting to their destinations quicker

    You contradicted your own assertion before you finished that paragraph.

    As is usual, people don't actually think their arguments through.

    Indeed.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    Bus carries 95 passengers (most popular model in DB fleet according to Wiki, B5TL Euro 6 ) so let's run that at FULL capacity and a 15 min service interval, which would mean past a given point you could move a maximum 380 Pax (95x4). Now assuming you haven't squashed all the cars into a single lane to accommodate the bus, how many cars with single occupancy can you move past a given point?

    i can see a bus stop from where i'm typing; it's on a three lane road each way (one bus/bike lane, two normal traffic lanes) and five different bus routes stop at that stop - there are 12 buses due to stop within the next 30 minutes. and that doesn't even rate the bus lane a 24 hour status; it's madness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,656 ✭✭✭✭ LXFlyer


    Every bus route in Dublin will not be 24 hour operated, but every spine corridor should ultimately have a 24-hour service, and they are due to be rolled out in phases between now and 2024.

    Hopefully some of the orbital routes will also become 24 hour at some point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    Putting a bus lane in doesn't equate to better PT unless you invest in more buses

    And people just love missing out bits of a post to try and sell their own agenda, go to the back of the class and write out a 100 times "I will try not to look the fool when posting peoples quotes"



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 32,828 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Seth Brundle


    12 busses in 30 minutes?

    Think of the number of cars that could have used that space in those 30 minutes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    you've put a section in bold there as if it's axiomatic. if a bus lane speeds up the bus service, it does equate to better PT. this is simple stuff.

    does a driver who is sitting staring at the rear end of a car fatigue more more slowly than one able to make progress?

    break times are irrelevant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,206 ✭✭✭✭ Donald Trump



    Man you seem very bitter at life. It sucks to be stuck in a sh1thole like Balbriggan alright but don't blame the buses or the lack of a DART for that. You have a train, and also express buses that will bring you direct to the city centre through the port tunnel far faster than you'll get in there with whatever jalopy you're driving. Loads of options for you there. Public and private buses too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    So you have what, 24 buses or so in the next hour, say we have them at full capacity ( round figures, but unlikely anyway) 100 PAX= 2400, you have two lanes of traffic so in theory you can get twice as many cars. given the assumed figures of 5kph and headway of 2m you still lose out on passenger numbers going past



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    But do you feel, as the OP said that all bus lanes should be 24 hour. I'd agree if there are 24 hour bus timetables ( and as you said there are 7 with more to come ) then there might be a case for them but I'd still wonder when the frequency drops to the 1 bus an hour between 21.54 and 03.54 do you need 24 hour bus lanes?

    Personally unless they change the rules on taxis and bus lanes it doesn't affect me, but I just don't see the logic in removing space that could be better utilised between those sort of hours.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 42,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭ magicbastarder


    so you're comparing the theoretical maximum number of cars with the actual number of buses as a way of comparing? was that deliberate?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭ Spook_ie


    I've put a bold bit in because of people who like to miss out sections of a post to try and score a point.

    PT is not just about getting from A-B in a shorter time, it relies on convenience, like the waiting time between buses. If the buses finish their journeys earlier then you need more buses following them to maintain the timetable.

    As for break times being irrelevant, I think we should ask a bus driver if he feels that his break times are irrelevant.



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