sick of propping up non performing farms

abnormalnorman

every year its the same story - farmers are loosing money, and we need to support them.

just saw this headline now (and haven't read it , sorry), but, why do we (tax payers) need to keep bailing out the farmers every time something doesn't go their way??

https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/agri-business/i-hope-there-can-be-a-fast-delivery-of-money-into-farmers-pockets-new-aca-president-noel-feeney-on-cap-and-other-challenges-41472174.html

if a farm isn't making profit, enough to withstand the never-ending problems of the world (wet weather, dry weather, war, covid, inflation, etc etc etc ) - then the farmer needs to re-organise, re-establish his/her enterprise to make it more sustainable, without support from everyone else. Somehow they can still afford to buy tractors worth 30k, when a tractor worth 10k will do the same job.

Its the construction industry that are suffering the most in todays climate - some who are stuck in a contract to finish buildings that they priced maybe 2 years ago! No one on about a "fast delivery of money into their pockets".

So my question before I get banned from boards - d you agree with above statement? Yes / No poll.

Allinall

No.

Conversations 3

People need to start paying a proper price for their food.

Then we'll see how much you want the CAP back.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823821#Comment_118823821

Pay for it directly on the food or pay it indirectly through taxes, either way I'm paying for it.

Doesn't address the point though, in any other industry a business either makes money or it fails, yet in this industry we continue to prop up loss making enterprises. Read the farm forum here and you see lots of lads declaring their intention to keep just enough stock to get the "payments". What sort of warped industry model is that?

epfff

No

People want and governments need bellow cost of production food in current economic system.

At current rates of support you are going to see people die from starvation inparts of Europe within 18 months.

abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823811#Comment_118823811

so a farmer thats loosing money daily on his farm, should just plough on?? "keep the show on the road" - because that's all it is if its not making profit - a big show for the neighbours to be looking at, while its kept propped by government handouts and tax payers money

abnormalnorman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823821#Comment_118823821

no problem paying for my food.

epfff

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823941#Comment_118823941

Good for ypu now can you u go and sell that idea of paying cost of production to the other 500 million people in EU so farmers can have a fair market to sell into instead of putting your time into trying to start a keyboard warrior war.

cap.in.hand.

Its the EU mostly not Irish taxpayer that make the payments to farmers

Ubbquittious

The supermarkets are the greatest winners from farm subsidies. Follow the supply chain and see how much the price rises between the farm and the shelf in the supermarkets.

and the way things are set up now the supermarket can't lose. People are entrenched in their habits, local markets have been all but eradicated and there are EU rules to make life awkward for those wishing to bypass the supply chain. Even back in 1995 the local shopkeeper here would ask people if they wanted "gugs" because she wasn't officially allowed to sell them anymore.

Farm subsidies end up in the pockets of Mr. Dunne/Aldi & Lord Tesco so they can buy more self-checkout machines and a new superyacht for themselves

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

When consumers start paying the cost of production plus a margin for their food you can come back and have your poll.

Easten

Farmers here are very good at lobbying Government, the construction Industry not so good, I'd even go further and say the Construction Industry has a poor reputation and is goes through too many cycles of boom and bust along with all the price gowging and Tax payer bailouts along with it. I'm still paying USC from the last Banking/Building bailout. It's a hard penal Tax hitting the average Joe for an extra €70/week on average.

But you do have a point that farmers are always moaning about prices and costs etc yet there has been a boom in land prices, New buildings/expansion and new Tractors and Machinery over the last few years. The amount of money some of these farms are on the hook for is staggering. Let's just hope Interest rates don't rise too much or there could be trouble ahead

Wanderer78

life and markets are not as simply as this, subsidisation is common practice all over the world, in many sectors, including in agriculture, without which, we simply wouldnt survive, the idea of efficient markets is simply a myth. what has occurred has been our modern approach to production, we re simply over producing, and in turn squeezing the life out of many producers, loading them with debt, and hammering every aspect of their business, so much so, returns are poor, while their produce is sold at next to nothing, hence the subsides......

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823821#Comment_118823821

again, this is one of the main conundrums, increasing prices will more than likely cause inflation, causing an increase in pay, causing.....

its a potential feedback loop, we ve shafted ourselves, with modern economics

Furze99

What does the OP mean by non performing farms? I mean there are some very substantial agricultural businesses in the country, which if you talked to their accountants, might be considered non performing, despite big turnovers and large farm payments. And at the opposite end, small farms and upland farmers turning over the bare minimum. And everything in between. You'd be better off redistributing farm supports towards smaller enterprises and keeping rural Ireland populated. There's a value in having people on the land, managing it in as environmentally way as possible, for all citizens including urban tax payers.

893bet

People don’t want to “bail out farmers”

but they do want the “Aldi super 6” and “5 meats for 20 quid”.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824210#Comment_118824210

yes people want these things, but many simply need them, as the cost of living is sky rocketing, our reality is far more complex than just people wanting their wants.....

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

The construction industry, you mean the industry that offered my friend €1200+ a week cash in hand to barrow cement to two block layers? Without even having to mix said cement.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824210#Comment_118824210

A "Bailout" implies a one off support in a time of need, not this eternal propping up of unprofitable businesses.

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

Any decent construction contract has a clause for inflation price rises.

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824380#Comment_118824380

They wouldn’t be unprofitable if consumers paid a proper price for their food.

In all honesty do a significant percentage of people not understand that ?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824449#Comment_118824449

People keep repeating that as if we don't already know it, and also as if it addresses the actual point at hand, but it doesn't.

I'm paying for this food either way so I have no specific issue with food prices rising in line with a change to the business model. People will pay the market price for anything, whatever that might be.

You have an industry that encourages people to basically have a shell company doing just enough so that it can receive support payments, that is a broken business model. If doing something about it means higher prices at the till then so be it.

jaymla627

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824449#Comment_118824449

The large majority of the population don't to be honest, but their all about to get a crash course in food inflation pretty shortly, the sense of dread I have for 2023 and food security worldwide and the geo-political fallout from it is frightening

White Clover

You're making the assumption that agriculture is the only sector that is subsidized. It's not.

bunderoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

Find out WHY the are loosing money the last 20-30 years and then you'll have your answer.

thefallingman

It's losing money not loosing money good god, we need our farmers though but any help should be done correctly

GNWoodd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824493#Comment_118824493

I assume that what you are saying ‘by either way ‘ is your paying by both taxation and product price . The sum of both is still not sufficient . This is the reason that a lot of farmers are reducing stock numbers/ inputs and leaving the land barely ticking over .

The price received for most farm produce doesn’t cover the cost of production. Adding in the subsidies barely makes it worthwhile.

It is a perverted system that has become acceptable to all. The only way to have a true market is to get rid of farm subsidies and let food find its own price .

No government will ever allow that to happen .

bunderoon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824571#Comment_118824571

A typo, good god.....

And you forgot your full stop. Good god......

cap.in.hand.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824493#Comment_118824493

Parts of the farming business are now being pushed towards paid environmental schemes instead of food production so it's not a broken business model as the environment is now the business and what is required by the state or EU.

JeffKenna

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

I find it hard to believe that you actually want a serious discussion when you didn't even bother reading the article that sparked your outrage.

JoeCasey

Last year 33 billion spent on social protection, 1.6 in farming.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824710#Comment_118824710

happy days, a lot of that goes straight back into the economy, so all good

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824730#Comment_118824730

Where do farmers put it under the mattress? They multiply that 1.6 billion investment into more than 16 billion of exports, much of which props up the rural economy..how much of that social protection money goes the other way on imported cigarettes and cheap beer??

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824592#Comment_118824592

Sounds like you are agreeing with me. Yes the market should be allowed to operate normally, and yes that would mean higher prices. But eventually it would also be more efficient, the lads who run a good farm and a tight ship would see the benefit as all the poor operators drop out of the market. Farmers as suppliers would gain more leverage instead of being beholden to the supermarkets.

No it probably won't happen, just as with the health service governments have created a problem too big for them to fix. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

Jonnyc135

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824493#Comment_118824493

So If 500g of mince went from €3.50 to €14 in order for beef farmers to become viable and payments to be cut, you would have no problem paying it which would be the fair price for the poorest cut of meat. If the answer is yes then fair play, I suspect most people reading this would not agree.

893bet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825518#Comment_118825518

Great point re the money that is brought into the country. For balance alot of our inputs are however imported also.

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825663#Comment_118825663

I would have no problem paying the fair market price, whatever that may be.

I also don't agree that it would be a jump from 3.50 to 14 overnight, none of this happens in a vacuum. The supports need to be phased out, the market will be turbulent for a period and then will stabilise, then become competitive again. That would take place over years or more likely decades.

None of this addresses the core point made, which is that farming includes a sizeable cohort who run a business solely with the aim of doing just enough to qualify for government payouts. In many other industries that would simply be considered as a scam.

Deub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825695#Comment_118825695

Do you have a number or percentage for “sizeable”?

K.G.

Because we re worth it

Danzy

Ultimately the problem is that people want to eat too many times a week and repeatedly so. Nor have they any interest in changing that filthy habit.

We certainly can continue to rely on the Ukraine and Russia for grain, as can the rest of the world. Vlad is apolitical when it comes to resources and leverage. Maybe we need to completely hand over supply, even more than now, to Russia and China etc

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

Tractor worth 10k?????

I think the 1990's called and asked when you are coming home from your time travel escapades.

Any subsidy and scheme is there to benefit the consumer - not the farmer. Let's see how much the consumer is whinging later on the the year when food inflation bites.

alps

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

Subsidisation goes on across the board with most industries in some format, be it tax breaks (multinationals), infrastructural, (including electrical supply, services, roads, ports), direct job investements (IDA), foreign diplomatic backup.

Investement in jobs that produce goods and services sold abroad return handsomely for the country. Its really not important that the primary producer (where most of these subsidies are targeted) makes profit, rather than they can keep producing.

Regardless of my farm profit, if I sell €200,000 product from my farm, typically €700,000 is brought into the country on the back of it.

Countries can only survive by selling stuff...money in..

White Clover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825695#Comment_118825695

Are you suggesting that something as essential as food production should be left to the mercies of capitalism and "the market" ?

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825677#Comment_118825677

Fair point as we are discovering with fert this year.. but we will adapt and contribute a hell of a lot more than the vast majority of social welfare spend..how much of that 33 billion is spent on hap payments going to pension funds and the wealthy among us and farmers are the ones bothering the op.

Pinsnbushings

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825595#Comment_118825595

Honestly that's great in theory but it won't work out for society as a whole on a number of fronts..social, environmental, animal welfare, food security, food safety and I could go on and on. Are we learning nothing from this energy crisis

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825798#Comment_118825798

42

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118826056#Comment_118826056

Are there animal welfare companies that only exist to pick up animal welfare subsidies? Are there food safety regulators that only do the bare minimum to justify their government subsidies? Are there energy companies that carefully produce just enough to get their subsidy and stop there?

Is this thread about the non performing farms or is the thread title badly inaccurate?

c.p.w.g.w

Something that most people seem ignorant about it food prices...if we made it so farmers had to turn a profit without government help, the cost of food would be vastly higher than it currently is..

Packrat

Tractor for 10k? Go on done deal and send me the links for all those 10k tractors which aren't 35 years old or a garden toy.

Good for you that you've no problem paying the real price of your food. You're in a tiny minority there though, - most supermarket customers never buy any lamb (Just one example) because they can't afford even the heavily discounted loss leader prices it's sold at. Same with steak.

They buy mince - at a third of the production cost.

Tell me, what do you do yourself?

mickdw

In my opinion farm grant payments have ruined farming.

Go back 30 to 35 years ago and here in west of Ireland a fairly average few week old calf was going for 300 punts plus and meat was affordable in shops.

Now a similar class of animal at same age might go for 450 euro. A tiny rise in prices over 35 years yet diesel and everything else is likey at least 10 times the price now.

This is only sustainable due to grants.

Now shop meat prices have not stayed down at 1980s prices - they have gone up with cost of living so I can only assume that the meat factories, distributors and retailers are making a mint.

I don't think meat needs to be produced so cheaply in order for meat to be affordable in shops.

I think there is enough margin the system that would allow farmers be paid reasonably and the meat in the supermarket shelf still affordable.

Grant aids allows prices be pushed Into the ground.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058238523/sick-of-propping-up-non-performing-farms

Can I ask what industry do you work in?