Fair Deal changes might actually happen but...

Deeec

Donald Trump - I am just wondering have you been through the process yourself? Have you ever cared for an elderly relative? Have you dealt with the fair deal scheme?

I have being through the process with an elderly uncle and let me tell you the 'Fair deal scheme' has been a nightmare to deal with from start to finish. Absolutely nothing to do with me ' cashing in' because I probably will not even be a benificiary in his will. On paper its sounds like a great scheme but in practice it is flawed.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823856#Comment_118823856

also I'd like to stress - what I may or may not receive as an inheritance isn't my major concern ... the primary concern is that my mam receives the best care that is possible, after that it is to make sure that her income and assets can pay for this care. What is left is a bonus in my opinion and will go towards my children's and their cousin's education which was always what my parents wanted.

Your snide remarks about people sorting out new Beemers for themselves while their parents are ushered in to care homes, while not directed at me, is still insulting ..... it was the most difficult decision I ever had to make, it was gut wrenching putting my mam in to a car and packing a suitcase to bring her in to a strange place knowing that she would never see the home that she worked so hard to keep and raise 5 children in.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823940#Comment_118823940

As I said, you are seeing it purely from your own perspective. Maybe see a bit more of the human in the person who needs help rather than seeing them as an inconvenience between you and whatever you hope to be left.

Plenty of crap from yourself on thread. From not understanding what a ward of court can mean to thinking that an incapacitated would have to be "put through" the process. All the while trying to pretend you know even basics by simply deflection and casting aspersions on other

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824010#Comment_118824010

Very well said - it is a horrible situation deciding to put someone in a home. Its the very last resort for most families.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823985#Comment_118823985

Figures start changing quick as soon realism creeps in.

Someone in a nursing home are mostly beyond caring about the income. They have other priorities.

If you can't sell it to a LL who is already in the business there's no hope of selling it to a new entrant in a nursing home. I'm not even sure of the ethics of it.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823490#Comment_118823490

Who pays the €1500 p/m to the HSE if Paddy's house isn't rented? What happens if the rent isn't paid and the tenant overholds for 18 months?

You haven't thought this through at all.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824032#Comment_118824032

what part of "I have no interest in your ****" did you not understand?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824005#Comment_118824005

It is optional. One has a choice to enter it or not. If it is not perfect, and you choose it, then that is probably because it was the best available choice.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824005#Comment_118824005

of course they haven't. they haven't a clue what is actually involved.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824032#Comment_118824032

absolute nonsense. One one hand you want to force a person to rent out their assets and then charge them the admin cost to do this.

Being a landlord is a pain in the hole with regards to upkeep and jumping around tenants ... there is costs involved in this and as you said not everyone can do it. There is a big problem with amateur landlords who don't know their responsibilities and the subsequent issues it causes ..

What you have now suggested is that the state take 50% rent, syphon off 30% to a quango and leave the asset owner with 20% of which is taxable and they would still be on the hook for the upkeep, maintenance and break fix of a normal tenancy.

You are living in the land of Boyd-Barrett and thankfully the vast majority of the electorate see through his nonsense

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824010#Comment_118824010

Exactly. Their care will be all your concerned about.

Look at the care home staff and what they had to deal with in Covid. All for little about the minimum wage. I'd prefer to give the money to them. As would the people in there I'm sure.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824066#Comment_118824066

Answer was already provided. If the house is not rented, or rent is not paid, it can get capitalised onto the lien.

If you don't want to run the risk of tenant not paying then you effectively pay someone else to take that risk. There are schemes which guarantee your rent.

Your choice.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824074#Comment_118824074

Actually it was because there was no other choice. I've been through it multiple times. Its always been when you run out of options.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824010#Comment_118824010

yeah, the superior attitude they display is very distasteful to people who have been through it. like yourself I eventually put my mother in a home but luckily we had the EPOA sorted out. it was a decision that we left as long as humanly possible. probably too long. I was looking after her practically on my own since the start of covid. home care was non-existant. when we did eventually put her in a home that finished her off totally. she died a month after being admitted.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824102#Comment_118824102

Must have missed that in the ether.

You're suggestions aren't workable at all. My last comment on it.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824102#Comment_118824102

and full circle back to what Fair Deal is currently providing - the lien is still there and it provides.

The average length of time someone stays in nursing homes is less than 2 years. So the property would only be empty for two years plus the length of time for probate. This won't help the housing crisis in any way. So your hair brained schemes are pointless.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824092#Comment_118824092

I'm always amazed at how self-centred people are. Everyone feels entitled to the reward but without having to put everything in. Because everyone feels "special"

Basic investment principles if that there is always a risk-reward tradeoff. It would be your choice whether to take the risk on or not. You can manage it yourself if you want or you can get someone else to take that risk. You do this every day with your house. You pay an insurance company to take the risk that your house will burn down. But you pay them for it. You can't expect to not pay your house insurance but that the insurer would still pay out.

If you want to take the risk then that is your choice.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823985#Comment_118823985

That's up to individuals. If a child etc wants to manage it for their parent then they can.

Why would they bother? What's in it for them for their effort?

It's not rocket science. Some people might struggle with managing a property but that's probably a sign that maybe it's not for them. If someone's job is to arrange files in the filing cabinet in alphabetical order and it is a struggle for them, then maybe they should try something else.

There's a bit more to renting a property than there is arranging files in alphabetical order. You are right, it's not rocket science, but as you can see, landlords are leaving in droves. It's just not worth it for an awful lot of small-time landlords.

Deeec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824074#Comment_118824074

So I take it you havent dealt with fair deal. Most people have to go through fair deal as they cant afford the fees otherwise.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824149#Comment_118824149

It's a matter for another thread but why should it "be worth it for small time landlords". Why should the ability to sign a loan agreement mean that you are on easy street for the rest of your life with no risk and some other schmuck paying back your loan for you + extra.

It's an investment. It needs work and entails risk. I wouldn't buy a bakery tomorrow and start crying that I don't know how to manage a bakery and that I might actually have to do some work and it's not fair that someone else won't take on the responsibility and pay back the loan and bake my bread for me and give me a pension

And for "why would the child want to - what's in it for them". Well therein lies the rub of the thread. People are only caring about what is in it for them.

I simply think that the houses are wasted and there should be an incentive to rent them out. But the people waiting on the owner to pop their clogs are worried there is nothing in it for them. Not the owner. The owner should not be disadvantaged. But they not actually concerned about that.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824144#Comment_118824144

it's not an investment ... it is my mams house. Its paid for, it belongs to her and she uses a portion of the value of that home along with 80% of her pension to pay for her care.

As a family there is no Risk / Reward discussion to be had on the house - it is hers. We are not interested in making money out of her house. This is where your argument falls in to the total fallacy arena.

she is paying for her care - end of story. she shouldn't be strong armed in to a risk / reward scenario just to suit a sort of marxist agenda that no one should reap the rewards of their own labours.

You keep saying it is 'your choice' .. but yet you want to force people with little or no capacity in to becoming business owners .... and if they can't do it charge them for the privilege.

You made stupid points at the start of this thread and rather than admit they were ill conceived or wrong you just keep digging a bigger hole

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824144#Comment_118824144

Actually its not your choice. The Govt changed the legislation so that LL cannot mostly not control risk or migrate against it.

That's why the Govt outsourced it. That's why LLs are leaving.

Henry Ford III

There's another factor in relation to the Fair Deal customers vacant house - many nursing home residents see themselves as only being in a home temporarily, as they'll be going back to their own home soon enough.

Whilst this is clearly unrealistic (Fair Deal only applies to clients who require permanent care after all) you simply can't take away someone's hope. That might be the only thing that's keeping them alive.

Many old folk simply couldn't handle their home being rented, and trying to explain the negative complexities of legislation if they don't might not be possible.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824178#Comment_118824178

bullsh1te ... .

Again - this is an insult to me and every other person who has had to suffer the heartbreak of taking their parent out of the family home to put them in to the care of strangers. To suggest it is all done to maximise the return on investment when they die is just downright horrible to suggest.

Obviously you have zero experience of it - and neither did I until I had to do it and I can tell you the last thing on your mind is money when you are picking out a couple of photos to put on the wall in their room. Money is the last thing on your mind when you are signing 'end of life' arrangements with the nursing home staff. Money is the last thing on your mind when you bring your kids over to the nursing home to see Nanny being spoon fed by a stranger wearing a surgical mask. Money is the last thing on your mind when you show your mother videos of her pet dogs which she pines for every day. Money is the last thing on your mind when you watch your childhood home deteriorate due to no one living there.

That's all for me in this thread - good bye

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824155#Comment_118824155

Fair deal only takes a percentage of your property. If you need care you can sell your property rather than enter the FD. If are incapacitated then the property can be sold through the courts to maintain the person. If you have no property then FD is a great scheme! The HSE will get 22.5% of nothing.

Again that is considering the perspective from the person whose perspective is the only one who matters - the owner of the property. It is only when the potential future beneficiaries get concerned about disadvantages to them that you start worrying about other things.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824178#Comment_118824178

And for "why would the child want to - what's in it for them". Well therein lies the rub of the thread. People are only caring about what is in it for them.

You are being very generous with other people's time and effort without knowing any of their personal circumstances/abilites etc.

Your idea is unrealistic and unworkable. It would require huge changes in legislation that probably wouldn't get voted through, it would require a mad level of investment that won't be made, and it'll require the State to set up new departments etc. which won't be set up.

I don't think there's any merit to continuing this discussion, and for that reason, I'm out.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824304#Comment_118824304

I'll refer you to the earlier posts in the thread by multiple posters (not you) whose concerns were apparently on the potential delay of getting tenants out of the house when the owner died. Not one bit of concern expressed about the welfare of the owner.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824178#Comment_118824178

Dropping the refugee's for the renter's. Nice.

How about buying it off them, build your own, rent it, or get the Govt to do any of these things and leave the elderly alone. If the Govt want these properties quickly offer them an incentive to sell it fast. Streamline the legal process. All they are doing here is pratting about, to be seen to be doing something while actually doing nothing.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823177#Comment_118823177

If only there was scheme something like this one for landlords, eh?

https://www.dublincity.ie/residential/housing/i-own-my-home/rent-or-sell-your-property/long-term-leasing-initiative

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824340#Comment_118824340

It wouldn't need a huge change: Only a change to the scheme itself

"Starting next week the terms of the FD scheme will be a lien of 6% per year + an accrual of 50% of market rent as assessed on the property. Any rent over that collected will go to the owner tax free. Anyone currently under old scheme can switch to this one"