Fair Deal changes might actually happen but...

Ray Palmer

They are now actually acknowledging that this left property vacant

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/housing-minister-darragh-obrien-seeks-changes-to-fair-deal-plan-to-help-house-refugee-influx-41477203.html

The thing is they forgot about all the rental rules that also make this unappealing along with the threats of other restrictions by current and possible government. Are people going to risk the historical family home where by they could not get rid of the tenants and possibly forced to keep renting to them indefinitely.

If I was asked by a friend should they do this I would advise them not to due to unstable situation that politicians have created to score points with each other and the public rather than addressing the issues sensibly and sustainably.

Flinty997

Its a dumb idea to offer accommodation they don't have and not build some housing, not even temporary housing.

A house thats in the fair deal is usually full of belongings and need of refurbishment, not the mention the legal disputes that go on for years with such properties.

Flinty997

On the same page as the above article...

Red tape delaying new social housing by up to two years

Government micromanagement is holding up the planning process and increasing costs for the taxpayer

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822214#Comment_118822214

I really don't agree with that argument. This is a humanitarian action taking in people from a war zone. It is the right thing to do. Nobody is expecting everybody to get their own front door. We can take people in and we can help. There are a lot less obstacles to housing refugees temporarily than permanent accommodation for citizens.

If something were to happen in Ireland I would expect other nations to help therefore it our duty to help others. At least people seem annoyed with the government and not the Ukrainian people, for the moment.

whippet

that all sounds far too simple. I am in this bind with fair deal. However - I don't have Enduring POA over my mother and my father died a few years back. In theory I can't really do anything with my mam's property. I am sure I'm not alone in this predicament - I can't enter a rental agreement on behalf of my mother with anyone.

It is a 4 bed bungalow in a large town commuting distance to Dublin City centre and has been empty for 3 years and is currently boarded up. It will need modernisation - but in reality it will be knocked down and either apartments or a couple of semi-ds will be built on the site.

Its a real shame

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822563#Comment_118822563

When I go visit my mam's street you can kind of spot the homes that are empty because you know the people that own them. The Smith's house doesn't have flowers in the window anymore because she is in a home. The houses look fine, so far, but there is a lot of them in really prime spots. The thing is many families have 5 kids so the hassle of renting doesn't appeal to them and the way Fair Deal is now there is no way. Doubt they will start being rented even if they change the regulations.

It is patently riddiculious that the government had the policy to start with. Increased revenue to the state, increases to rental market and sustaining neighborhoods all seem like things they would want instead of mothballing perfectly good houses that often go into disrepair.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822620#Comment_118822620

exactly - there are 5 siblings in our family and when my mam passes the property will be sold. If we were to rent it out now the revenue after tax wouldn't be worth the hassle of being a landlord and also the hassle of having to have it vacant to sell it. So it just makes sense to leave it as is until the time comes

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822356#Comment_118822356

It's not an argument it's the reality.

How are you going to house people with housing you don't have. Are you creating temporary facilities to house them, do you have spare capacity.

Or is this another sounds bite to make people think you're doing something when your actually sitting on your hands.

Its tokenism on the back of other people's suffering and should be called out for what it is.

Donald Trump

Lets consider the other side of this. If the state is paying a lot of money to provide care to a person while that person has a considerable asset, why should the State not be receiving some benefit in the form of the house being released to the market in some capacity.

If there are 10 kids rubbing their hands at the thought of getting their share from selling the asset while concluding that the "income" from renting it would be minimal (even though it would still be the parent's income!!!!) then how about some of those 10 kids get together and turn that concern into action and mind their parent at home.

Perhaps the Fair Deal should be changed so that, say 50% of the market rent for that house is added on to the debt owed by the house for the time it is vacant along with the existing charges (which might be modified to compensate a little)

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822693#Comment_118822693

the state already takes a percentage of the value of the property to pay for care.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822655#Comment_118822655

“There are about 8,000 homes vacant as a result of a person being in long-term care and if a fraction of them came back into the market it would of course help,”

Even if they released all of those 8000 homes it would still only make up a fraction of the houses required. this is just a soundbite and nothing more. If they want to make the rent received tax-free then just do it, dont pretend it will make a material difference to the housing crisis.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822693#Comment_118822693

You have totally misconscrued the argument there.

Firstly - in my case, like that of I am sure many other we have absolutely zero legal right or ability to enter in to any contract on behalf of the parent in the nursing home as we do not have enduring power of attorney and can not get it in place as my mother does not have the mental capacity to consent. This is fact and as such I can not enter in to a contract on her behalf legally to rent out her assets.

Secondly - The fair deal already takes a proportion of the value of the asset (depending on a few factors) when it is eventually sold when my mother passes away. up to 7.5% of the value of the home will be given to the state to repay (property could be worth about €500,000 - so approx €37,5000 each year. Up to about €112,500. So on top of that you want the property to be handed over in the mean time ?

Thirdly - My mother has an occupational pension which comes in at about €2,500 per month. She contributes approx €2150 per month to her nursing home costs. She also has other expenses such as pharmacist fees, hair dressing, podiatry etc along with maintaining the insurance on the house, EBS connection. So in effect every penny is used every month. We have no issue with that as her pension is to provide for her.

You talk about 'releasing' the property to the market - all sounds good - but this is akin to forced seizure of assets. My parents worked hard all their lives to pay for this property including the 1980s when interest rates were in the statrosphere. What happens when my mother passes away do we then become landlords ? I've no interest in being a landlord - had that misfortune once before and when my house was trashed by tenant leaving me with a bill for over €10k in repairs and zero rent for 6 months I'll never put myself in that position ever again.

Fortunately myself and my siblings don't need any money and are independently financially secure so there isn't greedy children dividing up the spoils while my mother is shoved off in a nursing home.

She has very complex medical needs and it would be impossible to cater for these without 24 hour nursing care ... doing this in a private home would be nigh on impossible due to the cost and the lack of qualified professional available to provide such care. There is a huge shortage of nurses in Ireland and I'd need at least 3 to provide the care to my mother.

In otherwords - you haven't a clue what you are talking about

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822749#Comment_118822749

up to 7.5% of the value of the home will be given to the state to repay

I may be misremembering but it is not 7.5% a year for the first 3 years she is in a nursing home so a max of 22.5%?

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822773#Comment_118822773

Apologies - I meant per year !! Yes you are correct - so up to €112,500 off the value of my mam’s house. Thankfully it won’t be up to that rate as her contributions to the nursing home from her pension were quite large so the state’s contribution hasn’t been to that level.

so nothing for free here - and people still think the assets should be more or less seized and handed over to the state

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822655#Comment_118822655

Don't know who you are to have such an offended personal view of me and I don't care. There is absolutely no reason for such a personal attack. It is an argument and I don't share your views on humanitarian efforts and think little of those who are so angry about helping people in need.

It is better than nothing in an area that needed a change but my point is with the other issue and threats on landlords it would still be inadvisable to do it. Which is a shame and wasteful.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822710#Comment_118822710

Yes. Which is why I said:

along with the existing charges (which might be modified to compensate a little)

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822817#Comment_118822817

My mother will in effect pay for just about all her nursing home care through her direct contribution and the lien on the property

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822749#Comment_118822749

Get out of that. On one hand having people, who have the assets to afford it, pay for their care is "forced seizure of assets" and on the other hand the people who will inherit those assets apparently have no interest in receiving the money when they are sold and the proceeds divvied up. You do realise that none of us are going to live forever - right? And that after a person dies, they don't get any benefit from having the house in their ownership? The only benefit accrues to the beneficiaries of the will.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822817#Comment_118822817

they are already paying and you want to punish them on top of that. many of those houses would be vacant because they are in the same position as Whippet. their parent doesn't have the capacity to create a power of attorney so nobody can act on their behalf and the property remains empty. But you want to penalise them for that? Clearly a situation you have no experience of.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822832#Comment_118822832

Try reading it again slowly:

along with the existing charges (which might be modified to compensate a little)

Modify the existing standing charges (i.e. reduce them) but add a variable amount to them to encourage that those properties be rented out. Hardly a difficult idea to understand? You might leave the expectant beneficiaries better off at the end of it if they do decide to allow their juicy inheritance to be put to practical use

E.g reduce the 7.5% charge down to 6% for three years but charge 50% of the market rent as a running charge for the duration the house is vacant.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822843#Comment_118822843

I outlined a situation where renting out the property is not possible but you ignored that.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822831#Comment_118822831

Not actually true. While the person is alive and they know there hard earned assets are going to family is a huge benefit to them. People knowing the state will take a huge portion upsets very many. So while the benefactor receives the asset they aren't the only ones benefiting

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822848#Comment_118822848

Everyone thinks they are special and everyone has excuses. These properties can't be rented ....... yet you'll find that as soon as probate is taken out they'll be up in the local auctioneer's window ..........

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822859#Comment_118822859

you clearly are not reading the posts you are responding to and are only here to troll.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822852#Comment_118822852

Perhaps the person (who knows that their benefactor will be receiving a nice inheritance) might like that that beneficiary to help them in their final years rather than carting them off to a nursing home, letting the State look after them

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822831#Comment_118822831

What do you not understand - they are paying for their care - My mother is paying 7.5% of the value of her house per year along with over €2k per month and yet you want more.

And on the other hand I hope that in 40 years I’ll have something nice to pass down to my grand children from the fruits of my life time’s work …. This you seem to have a problem with also. My parents lived a frugal life and struggled to pay for their house and as a result of this they never once had to have the state provide housing for them or the dole … but the fact that this asset might be left for their children to enjoy is something that irks you speaks volumes of your position / outlook on society

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822825#Comment_118822825

Well sure then it is a bit silly to go in under the Fair Deal in the first place. It is optional. You can pay privately too

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822864#Comment_118822864

I'm not the one not reading the posts. Why would you have an issue with changing the 7.5% down to 6% (max 3 years) and including 50% of the market rent of the property? Just as an example.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822870#Comment_118822870

how may people with life-limiting conditions have you cared for in their own home? you haven't a clue what you are talking about.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822888#Comment_118822888

because some people are not in a position to rent out their properties. again, you didn't read the post you replied to.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822876#Comment_118822876

Of course you can pay privately - €5,500 per month .. or €66k per annum - this would have meant that we would have to finance that additional 30k per annum ourselves .. but mam’s house is there, it is her asset and it is used to pay for her care … even if it means there is less value in the house for inheritance.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822888#Comment_118822888

You can’t enter a contract on behalf of someone else you don’t have legal authority to do so …..

the more you post the more it is clear that you don’t really understand the subject matter

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822899#Comment_118822899

But that is a choice. When I was a kid I remember my father's elderly Aunt going into a nursing home. She had a house and a small farm but no family. She went in and then the house and farm were sold to pay for her care. That is what assets are for. the house was renovated by the buyer and moved into soon afterwards and the circle life went on.

The aunt had a lot of nieces and nephews (old school, probably ~40 or more). So when she eventually passed away, there was a small inheritance for each. Under your view, you want a scenario where the State would have paid for all her care, the house and the house and property would have been left vacant for years, just so her nieces and nephews could have received a larger inheritance and no risk of delay in releasing it? I don't agree with that.

All I am putting forward here is an incentive to rent out the house. Simple as that. Nothing else

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822920#Comment_118822920

It is very clear he doesn't know what he is talking about better off ignoring him or he will keep posting

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822928#Comment_118822928

Who is going to sell my mother’s property ? She hasn’t the mental capacity to do so - and legally we can’t touch it. she is not unique in this situation.

If selling the property was an option we would have done it immediately, put all the proceeds in to her bank account and paid for the nursing home care directly from that account.

but in law this isn’t an option nor is it possible ….. do you understand that part?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822920#Comment_118822920

The Fair Deal scheme is a contract there genius.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822945#Comment_118822945

Which has an exception where by you can be appointed as a ‘care representative’ by the circuit court in order to facilitate the Fair Deal arrangement . Nothing more nothing less.

so again - you are showing your lack of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

And I will repeat that my mother will pay for her nursing home care - it is not a case of the children trying to maximise the inheritance.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822945#Comment_118822945

If there is no enduring power of attorney and the person lacks capacity then a care representative or a ward of court can apply on their behalf. Again, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Furze99

The 'Fair Deal' is one of the bigger social changes I think in my lifetime. Not that long ago that elderly parents, relatives and even neighbours were minded in the local community, at home or by dropping in etc. Less need for nursing home care as less medical intervention, people just died, maybe a bit before their time but often with less suffering perhaps. Most of the value of assets passed to the family.

What's happened since is a whole industry created around nursing homes and a transfer of wealth via the 'Fair Deal' from the family towards these often private enterprises.

And a shame to see houses left unused for years. I know of one vacant for 8 years.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822956#Comment_118822956

And the person can also be appointed a ward of court. There are always mechanisms.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Suppose nobody signs the "Fair Deal agreement". Or the "care representative" declines to sign it. What are the possible outcomes? There are legal mechasims though the courts to release those assets to pay for the owner's upkeep. They won't release them to the son or daughter to buy a new beamer but they can ultimately be accessed for the benefit of the owner.

Everything is a choice. The choices might not include the one you want, but such is life

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822962#Comment_118822962

Oke dokey. According to ohnonotgmail, if a person becomes incapacitated then there is NO mechanism by which their assets can ever be accessed to their benefit until they die. I hope you don't charge for legal advice?

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822975#Comment_118822975

Your rosy view of life in the olden days is not shared by those who lived then.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822993#Comment_118822993

there are mechanisms. the post you responded to mentioned those mechanisms. again, you need to read the posts you reply to.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822981#Comment_118822981

with the same outcome. I'm not sure what your angle on this point is? You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about it - but I'll reiterate.

I was awarded Care Rep over my mother and I needed the agreement of my 4 siblings to have it granted. If I didn't get their agreement in the application I am sure the next move would have been the intervention of the courts to make her a ward of court and used her assets in more or less the same way via something like the Fair Deal. But thankfully we are normal people and want to do what is best for our mother.

Your obsession with children wanting to take the money speaks more about you than anyone else - there is absolutely zero legal way for me to take a single euro of my mother's money / assets to put in my wallet.

If I did manage to take a penny off her while she is still alive would be theft and when probate comes around that will be evident for all to see.

Absolute nonsense coming out of your keyboard

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822975#Comment_118822975

Well there might have been a concern from the start in that case that the beneficiaries would be delayed in cashing in their inheritance should there be tenants, thereby causing an inconvenience. (The other reason for a delay in cashing in the inheritance would be, of course, the person hanging on)

I just think there should be an incentive to rent out those unused houses. It is difficult to see why someone could argue with that as a concept.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822993#Comment_118822993

no - it has been pointed out to you that this is possible by appointing a 'Care Representative' in the Circuit Court (which I have done) or making her a ward of court

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823014#Comment_118823014

The court would have allowed her assets to be used to pay for her care. The route you chose was the Far Deal scheme. It was not the only possible outcome. That is my simple point.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823020#Comment_118823020

Incentive is different to forcing the property to be rented out.

Taking in €1000 per month in rental income of which approx 50% will be taken by the tax man isn't an incentive to anyone who has been stung before by tenants

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822975#Comment_118822975

I don't know what time you are from but people going into nursing homes is something I have seen all my life.

Fair Deal has changed nothing other than payment for services that were provided by the state as part of your PRSI contributions if you could get into a public nursing home. The private ones were about too. The real change is the cost which is down to improved worker rights, wage inflation and the removal of religious orders.

Lots of services to help people stay in their homes and friends and neighbours still help out. My granny was getting meals on wheels 20 years ago

Things could be different in rural areas I guess but still think it odd somebody would be complaining about improved health care.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823033#Comment_118823033

how else do you pay for care for somebody that requires 24 hour care if their income doesn't cover the cost? that runs to thousands a month just for nursing home care. 24 hour care at home would cost more.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823033#Comment_118823033

Not correct ... as a Care Rep I am only allowed to enter the property in to the Fair Deal scheme - I still can not dispose of any of her assets. So again you don't know what you are talking about