Fair Deal changes might actually happen but...

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823030#Comment_118823030

You "pointed it out" in the context of the FD scheme which simply allows a contract to the signed which creates a lien on the assets. Which means their assets are accessed after they die

I pointed out that this is not the only option to release those assets for the benefit of the owner. But some apparently want to deny this

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823048#Comment_118823048

what are the other options for those that lack capacity?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823047#Comment_118823047

I did not say otherwise. What I said was that being appointed a Care Rep is not the only mechanism.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823048#Comment_118823048

Can you tell me what way there is for me to dispose of my mother's assets when she has no mental capacity and no Enduring Power of Attorney ?

You seem to think there is - but it must be a mystery?

Furze99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823040#Comment_118823040

Depends what you mean by improved health care. If you mean helping people who are still active and able to engage in life, yes improved health care is great. But I'm sure I'm not alone in visiting nursing homes and seeing people kept alive by repeated medical interventions, often as simple as flu treatment, when their quality of life has long gone. I know one sensible home help who often observes that 'flu was once the old persons friend'.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823053#Comment_118823053

Even if you are not aware, google + 2 mins is your friend. For example:

https://www.bmsolicitors.ie/services/ward-of-court/

When a person is made a Ward of Court, the person’s property such as house, land, bank accounts, etc., come under the protection and control of the Court. Depending on what funds are available to meet the expenses of the Ward, such as nursing home fees for example, the Court may permit the Committee to sell property or shares. Where a property or shares are sold the money is lodged in the Court and used for the Ward’s benefit. If possible, the property can be rented and the rent used for the Ward’s benefit. In relation to banks and credit unions accounts: these accounts are usually closed and the proceeds lodged in the Ward of Courts Office. When payments are required to discharge nursing home fees, etc.,

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823038#Comment_118823038

I think people are mixing up the tax rate and the Fair Deal situation. If you rented out in Fair Deal more goes to the state and THEN you are taxed at 50+% so nobody rented them out. They are talking about removing the part where rent goes to cost of care and the rent is ONLY taxed. Still unappealing for many but the main concern I would have is the rights to sell after inheritance as SF have suggested that selling a property shouldn't affect the tenant and also want to remove the need for personal or family need.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823076#Comment_118823076

I never said there was a way for you to (unilaterally) dispose of her assets. It would need to be done through the court and with the permission of the court. Any proceeds would be protected for the ward's benefit and decisions would be made for the ward's benefit alone. See above.

Am I saying you should do that? No, I don't know your circumstances. I am only saying it is an option. Signing up to FD is always an option.

Even after a person is already in FD. Should they later lose capacity and should it be necessary, they can still be made a ward of court.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823083#Comment_118823083

That is a summary of a very complicated legal process.

The court has control and the committee can request certain actions. But at all times the it must be in the best interest of the person who is the ward of court. And it would be the Fair Deal which would be a much better route than selling a property. It is also an expensive process which is not in the interest of the person being made ward.

Believe me if this was a valid option I would have gone down this route - but based on legal advice what we did was in the best interest of my mother and she can pay for her care for as long as she needs it from her lifetime's work.

Also - a court would probably reject the need to make her a ward of court when there is agreement to appoint a Care Representative. So it wouldn't get that far. The courts ensure that all other avenues are explored before going down this route.

Thankfully my family are all reasonable people and we didn't need to go down this route

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823094#Comment_118823094

I understand that - and after being shafted by tenants in the past I would sooner set fire to the house than become a landlord again. It also opens up the chances of never being able to regain control of the property again.

It is a bungalow sitting on almost an acre in a large commuter town - in reality it needs to be knocked down and either apartments or houses built on the site. If it were rented out and SF had there way it would be left as a single rented house until the tenants decided to leave - which is not what is needed for the housing crisis

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823124#Comment_118823124

I'm not knocking the FD scheme. It is very simple and straightforward.

I am only saying that there could be an element of an incentive to stop the house lying idle be built into it.

Most people don't do it now simply because most of the benefit would go to the State and there is no real disincentive against leaving it empty

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823138#Comment_118823138

In a heart beat I'd sell it now if I could .... but I've explored all legal avenues and it isn't possible.

Renting it out isn't an option - this government has made the rental sector so hostile for once off landlords it isn't worth the effort for the small return and the risks far outweigh the benefits.

If you are talking about incentives - if the government paid my mother €1500 per month rent and collected that from the tenants directly but guaranteed me the rent along with guaranteeing any damages will be paid for by the government and that when I wanted to dispose of the property they would ensure the tenants left when the lease was up - I'd consider - along with not including the rental income as part of the fair deal contributions.

But there isn't a hope in hell of this happening and with SF advocating for a society whereby tenants are protected from all responsibilities entering in to an arrangement like this would be reckless and stupid.

Ray Palmer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823136#Comment_118823136

The state benefit from this either way as that property sounds like it will be worth so much even their cut will be more than her care will cost the state. It is part of the scheme ideal, lose on some gain on others.

Lots of people don't seem to understand even the suggestion of certain new legislation has an effect on the market. Locking rent increases to a level regardless of inflation in a very dangerous decision given where we are heading. There maybe a run on selling rentals beyond what has been seen so far

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823083#Comment_118823083

i mentioned that option. FFS try and read before posting.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823190#Comment_118823190

The state can only claw back their contributions so it’s not an endless money tree for the state .. but in essence she will be paying for her own nursing home care and my issue with the people who believe that despite this she should be forced to hand over her assets to be used by others with nothing to really gain from it and with all the associated risks

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822798#Comment_118822798

I wasn't referring to you, but the govt. Thought that couldn't be more obvious.

I'm not angry. I'm saying its a dumb unworkable plan. Its nonsense in effect.

Henry Ford III

If the PPR of a Fair Deal resident is rented 80% of the rent goes to the HSE.

As far as I can see the rent is also taxable with no deduction for the HSE element. Up to 40% + levies.

A further spanner in the works is that the exemption from RPT disappears if the property is rented.

Little wonder that there are so many empty properties.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823211#Comment_118823211

I replied to your post which said:

what are the other options for those that lack capacity?

You had mentioned WOC in relation to signing the FD scheme only. The court can extend powers far beyond that to signing up to FD scheme. Just letting you know as you apparently were not aware of this.....if you were, it begs the question why you would be trying to confront me over something that you actually know is correct!!!!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822876#Comment_118822876

Some nursing homes you can't pay privately, you have to be in the fair deal.

The irony being if you are covering the cost of your own care, you be paying for yourself anyway, just though the payment Gateway of the fair deal.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823309#Comment_118823309

Yes, all I said is that that could be changed so that everyone benefits. And was attacked from it. Simple concept to get the idea across would be a 6% contribution for the 3 years plus 50% of the market value of the rent whether it is rented or not. But no additional HSE charge on actual rent received.

Then people can either choose to rent it, hand over 50% and have the other 50% subject to normal income (ringfenced for the benefit of the owner, not straight into the pocket of any impatient future beneficiaries) or they can leave it idle and allow the amount to be added up for the duration the property is vacant. If there would be a spouse still in the house then it doesn't count.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822876#Comment_118822876

I'd imagine the vast majority of people wouldn't have the funds to privately pay for their nursing home care. It can cost anywhere between €1000 - €1500 per week to pay for care.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823374#Comment_118823374

Well that is the point.

But a person can't pretend they are covering the entire cost of the care via their contributions if they aren't really.

For 1,000 Euro per week you'd need the property to be worth almost 700k. 1,500/w gets you up over 1m. And even at that, once you get past 3 years you'd be in "profit" so to speak. That is under FD calculations.

However if a person sold the property, they would have the money to pay for it. The otherwise beneficiaries would have to make do with whatever is left over at the end.

I'm not knocking the deal. I think it is a good one. I'm just being honest about it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822870#Comment_118822870

Not entirely sure how someone can provide 24/7 care, while looking after their own children and holding down a job, and paying their own mortgage or rent. That's assuming they themselves are physically able, there could be other parents requiring care, and the houses not suitable for doing any this at all. Most people don't go into a nursing home until they exhausted every other option at home and its become unsafe and unviable.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823418#Comment_118823418

But that is the choice. If a family is unable to make the effort, then the State does. It is a lot of effort to do so and takes a lot of resources. Therefore it would not be unreasonable for something reasonable to be allowed in return.

There seems to be plenty of people who, due to their own individual circumstances, appear to be against the idea of renting out a property. It is impossible for them to do so. I wonder how many of them would suddenly find a way to make it happen if the government changed the scheme so that 100% of any rent received went tax free into the bank account of the owner

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823372#Comment_118823372

You have landlords leaving the market because they think its unworkable.

It makes no sense that someone else with no experience and ton of other commitments could make it work on what was 20% of the income.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823443#Comment_118823443

Are there not still council schemes etc no? You get a percentage of the market rent guaranteed and get the place back in a guaranteed condition?

If it's the ill/elderly person's property. They should be the only ones whose benefits are taken into account.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823309#Comment_118823309

And if they sold it, they could take 100% of the proceeds for the property over time.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823449#Comment_118823449

They don't look after evictions or damages.

I don't know what benefits you refer to.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823443#Comment_118823443

Not sure where you are going with the 20%. The money belongs to the house owner - not the ones planning the Ferrari as soon as probate is concluded.

Paddy is 90. Has one son Mick.

Scenario 1: Paddy goes into a home. FD lien @ 7.5% for 3 years and 80% of rental income is taxed. House is left vacant and Mick receives 77.5% of the proceeds when Paddy passes away and the house is sold.

Scenario 2: Paddy goes into a home. FD lien @ 6% for 3 years plus 50% of market rental income whether house is rented or not. Any money left over from actual rent is tax free. Paddy lets the Council mange it for 3000 per month. 1500 is given to HSE and 1500 put into Paddy's account. When Paddy passes away and the house is sold, Mick receives 82% of the proceeds plus whatever was left in Paddy's bank account.

Everyone wins!

(Adjust figures as necessary to suit yourself but conclusion is till the same)

Flinty997

The Govt now offering houses for refugees that they themselves by their policies have removed from the market.

These properties will likely not meet minimum standards that the Govt themselves have set.

Catch 22.

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823309#Comment_118823309

Dont forget that even though the HSE get 80% of the rent, if there is any trouble or the tenants wreck or wont leave, you wont see the HSE taking any of the burden of getting it back in shape.

BattleCorp1

I agree that the Fair Deal scheme is unlikely to cover the entire cost of a nursing home resident's care. That's a side point though.

The point is that every single house that is currently in the Fair Deal scheme cannot be touched while the owner is alive as there is, as you put it, a contract in place so there's no point in Ministers saying that we can free up 8000 houses for Ukranian refugees. We can't. The Minister is talking bollix.

That's not to say that the rules can't be changed going forward to allow for houses to be freed up for rental/sale while the owner is alive but, being honest, I can't see it happening. It's very complicated and would probably need an awful lot of legislation.

Renting out the houses while the resident is alive would be a nightmare. Who is responsible for repairs/maintenance, who collects rent, who pays taxes, where do we store the nursing home resident's private property, who takes action against non-paying tennants etc?

Selling the house isn't easy either. Who sells it? How does the State know how long the person will live in the nursing home and therefore know what its cut of the proceedings will be.

These are only a couple of questions off the top of my head. I'm sure there are far more legal complexities to either renting/selling the house while the person is still alive.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823490#Comment_118823490

under fair deal 80% of your income goes towards paying for your care.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823473#Comment_118823473

I meant benefit in the sense of the action being done to their benefit.

Only the owner of the house's circumstances should be taken into account and decisions should be based on what provides most benefit to them alone. If a decision doesn't disadvantage the owner, then the fact it might affect a future recipient of an inheritance is irrelevant.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823502#Comment_118823502

He was replying to my scenario where I proposed a hypothetical 50:50 split

Gael23

The Issue is you have to pay tax on the rental income and still declare the pre tax income to the HSE. Somethung needs to give here, perhaps apply PPR relief or something along those lines

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823512#Comment_118823512

so you are basically forcing those with no capacity to go through the ward of court procedure. what a **** humanitarian you are.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823500#Comment_118823500

Well for the point regarding the proceeds of the sale, they would belong to the owner and the 22.5% could be deposited with the court.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823490#Comment_118823490

All I see is someone who...

..doesn't know the cost of a Ferrari or the running costs.

..doesn't knowing the costs (time and money) of buying/selling/transferring property or costs and expense running a business as Landlord.

..doesn't know how nursing home work, caring for elderly people, FairDeal

Ultimately if you knew how to do all this and turn a profit, you'd be doing it. But then You'd know how unworkable all this is and wouldn't have suggested it in the first place.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823528#Comment_118823528

If a person has no capacity, they aren't wheeled into a court to give evidence on a stretcher.

What kind of a system would require an incapacitated person to be directly involved in the process to prove they were incapacitated 🤣

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823520#Comment_118823520

The Govt need to go do their job and build housing for all these people they want to house for free.

Instead of trying to fob off stuff to other people.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823532#Comment_118823532

And if the resident only lives a year, do the HSE refund the other 15%? And who do they refund this money to? How do the HSE know the will/succession arrangements?

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823504#Comment_118823504

renting out my mams house would actually cost her money ...

Simple numbers:

Income - Rent €1000

Outgoings - Tax €480 approx

Outgoings - 80% contribution to Fair Deal €800

Net loss of €280 per month.

This does not include all the other expenses / risks of being a landlord. So even if I could rent her house out for her I'd be doing a disservice to her.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823539#Comment_118823539

If someone thinks that being a landlord is such a struggle then maybe it's not for them.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823542#Comment_118823542

clearly you are trolling so i'll leave you to it.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823552#Comment_118823552

Yes. Same as the HSE now - you are only charged for the years in care if less than 3. It is simply held as collateral. A standard mechanism. If the person dies, the balance is returned.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823553#Comment_118823553

What I proposed was simple.

50% of the market income to the HSE whether received or not.

The other 50% to the owner tax free. I stated that at the outset.

ohnonotgmail

the property lien is only for the first 3 years. the 80% of income that is taken is for the lifetime of the person in care.

whippet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823563#Comment_118823563

I was that gobshite a few years back - as single property landlord is a mugs game. If you get the perfect tenant it is fine but when things go pear shaped you have zero protection … as i said I was in the hole for about 10k worth of damages and 6 months of lost rent when I had a tenant wreck my house. but of course if I threw them out I’d be the one paying them compensation. They walked off in to the sunset when suited them and I had zero recourse for compensation …. So I sold and got out of the game.

there is no way in the world i would enter that business again

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118823512#Comment_118823512

I wasn't because its nonsense.