Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Bannasidhe

We hear a lot how allowing transgender women compete in woman's competitions will result in biological (cis) women being disadvantaged to the point of destroying women's sport.

Yet, in a a swim meet between Yale, Penn State, and Dartmouth where two transgender athletes competed directly against each other the clear winner was biologically female who identifies as male but hasn't started any hormone treatment yet.

Iszac Henig is transitioning from female to male but apart from having a double mastectomy has not taken any other surgical or hormonal steps yet and is therefore allowed to compete in women's events. Hormonally Henig is still 'female' - her body is no different biologically from any other cis woman's - yet she beat a transgender woman, Lia Thomas, who began HRT in 2019.

The issue of transgender people in sport need to be discussed and all factors considered -but it does seem that the warning of the death of "women's (ie cis women only) sport" are premature.

https://www.foxnews.com/sports/penn-lia-thomas-two-races-tri-meet-transgender-yale-swimmer

https://nypost.com/2022/01/08/lia-thomas-defeated-by-fellow-transgender-swimmer-iszac-henig/

Dudes rock..

Should not be allowed as they are biologically men whatever way you want to look at it!

hawley

This will be a big problem in 5-10 years time. There are so many teenagers who are transitioning at the moment; far greater numbers than in the previous decade.

Atlantic Dawn

Just merge women and mens races in to one to cut out this bull$hit.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443367#Comment_118443367

Who are?

The races were won by a transgender man who hasn't started hormonal transition yet. How is he biologically male?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058226834/transgender-man-wins-womens-100-yd-and-400-yd-freestyle-races

This is classic.

The argument of "advantage" is used by trans activists as a smelly red herring. It's a complete distraction technique. A kind of, "...let's drag everyone down the rabbit hole of genetics and biology and hormones and end up with a big meaningless linguistic mess at the end".

The reality is very much different: trans women should not compete with biological women because they're not biological women. It's a question of biological categories, and not one of advantage.

Even if there was a legal guarantee that trans women would always come last, we are still against biological males competing with biological women as a matter of principle.

Let me reaffirm: advantage has nothing to do with it.

And let's not forget that biological males who identify as women take the place of a biological woman who has trained for years to earn that position. That is grossly unfair, too.

So I would urge people to avoid temptation to debate "advantage", as it ignores the real elephant in the room that biological males who identify as women shouldn't be present in the competition to begin with, even if they were guaranteed to come last.

Ditto with trans men in male sports, too.

average_runner

There is a clear advantage if a competitive Male athlete moves to the female event.

Say a 2:09 male runner becomes a woman and completes in female marathon, their time wont drop much from 2:08 if at all.

Still stihl waters 3

So a woman that wants to be a man won a woman's race

Quantum Erasure

Girls who want boys Who like boys to be girls Who do boys like they're girls Who do girls like they're boys

Always should be someone you really love

padd b1975

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443442#Comment_118443442

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443442#Comment_118443442

Apologies! I read it incorrectly!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444294#Comment_118444294

Thanks for that!

I was confused about the whole 'OP' / article.. very confusing these terms..

First I thought it was a bloke masquerading as a female that defeated a bunch of females.. later I thought it was a bloke masquerading as a female that defeated a bunch of males.. then I read your post, and a mere 13 words summed the whole #rambling mess up..

#It takes a lot of brainpower/concentration to get the gist of these; almost 'doublespeak' articles; almost like reading a sentence with multiple negatives eg "I didn't think that I wouldn't be able to not refrain from declining the offer to turn down the offer of the invitation I didn't particularly want to receive in the first place"

I'd say others were confused to; maybe not as confused as me, but confused nonetheless, from reading the OP. And no, I don't know if my sentence example makes any sense at all, but I aint wasting my time trying to find out, and I'd advise others not to try either.. smiley;)face

Jequ0n

I’m sure this thread will be totally different to all the previous trans threads.

You even know who will be threadbanned.

Well, have fun everyone.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444289#Comment_118444289

Yet a competitive male athletic transitioned and was beaten in two female events.

Not seeing the clear advantage tbh.

standardg60

As far as i can tell, one swimmer, Thomas, was originally a man, and has gone through HRT therapy, while the other, originally female and still regarded as such as she hasn't undergone treatment, only a double mastectomy.

Does that surgery naturally lead to a reduction in oestrogen production anyway though?

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445259#Comment_118445259

A man that does 70 seconds competing against a woman that does 65 seconds for that event is not a fair comparison, lets have a top male athlete transition and compete against the top female athletes and see how that goes, that won't suit the narrative though as the man that transitioned would absolutely hammer the women.

When this person fully transitions to be a transgender man, she will get hammered by the male athletes.

MisterAnarchy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443401#Comment_118443401

I think once a top golfer or tennis player comes out as transgender thats when things will get very interesting as these are by far the most lucrative female sports.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445259#Comment_118445259

A really shi7 male athlete is still beatable, a moderate, unknown 17 yr old boy is still capable of 100 world record for the 100m.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445259#Comment_118445259

It has nothing to do with advantage.

Biological males, irrespective of how they identify, should not compete with biological females.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118443422#Comment_118443422

Then women won't win anything....unless they're men pretending to be women.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

This is a man pretending to be a woman in order to beat them at this sport and actually being proud of himself.

Its like me, a grown 110kg man competing in the sports day in primary school and laughing in the kids faces as I stomp them in every event.

Its unbelievable how this person isn't embarrassed of himself.

Strumms

i think it will take the likes of an athlete of the gold medal capacity of someone like Usain Bolt, who can run the 200 meters 2.15 seconds faster than the equivalent record on the female side wanting to change gender..

I think females should stand up for themselves and say no…about biological men entering female competition. Indeed visa versa as its taking opportunity away from men too.

greyday

Many women have and have suffered cancel culture as a result, the sporting bodies seem more interested in current social trends than protecting women in sport.

Dyr

We live in an society where feminists will tell you that its now okay for men to beat women.🤣

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445454#Comment_118445454

To add to this, briefly, what a bizarre form of argument the OP makes.

The argument seems to be something like, "Trans women are always losing, so that's why we need more of them".

I mean, really?

Katie Taylor or Kellie Harrington would likely hand 17/20 blokes on this whole forum their ass in a boxing match. Likely giving away, on average, over 3 stone to their opponents in the process..

As for the other 3 out of the twenty, they may have some training, so #they'd probably more than hold their own..

#Most likely they would be a lot heavier, so the weight difference would be an unfair advantage.. Out of a bigger pool, in keeping with the same ratio, making it 17,000 out of 20,000 (if there's even that many members of Boards) , then perhaps 829 out of those 17,000 blokes would be in Katie's or Kellie's weight category, and maybe 178 out of that 829 would be young/healthy enough to get in a ring with anybody..

I reckon there's at least 115 blokes on this site that fall within Taylor's and Harrington's weight category that would easily beat them..

Out of those 115, I'd hazard a guess that 90 of them are nobodies that very few people have heard of, and, out of the other twenty five, maybe they have a few provincial or national belts between them; but still, nowhere near as famous as the two female boxers..

TLdr a trained/fit female is going to get the better of an untrained/out of shape bloke in 80%+ of athletic endeavours.. A female secondary school student beating males at a swimming meet is merely a statistical aberration,,, How she would fare on a National level against her fellow male competitors is a far better barometer than beating kids in the same school/town..

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445843#Comment_118445843

A journey man boxer in the same weight class would go through Katie Taylor like a dose of salts and probably due some lasting damage in the process.

I know popular culture has spent the last decade convincing you otherwise but men don't physically compete with women for a good reason.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445925#Comment_118445925

It's a bizarre world we live in that this is not understood.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058226834/transgender-man-wins-womens-100-yd-and-400-yd-freestyle-races

A transgender man is someone who has transitioned from female to male....

Lia Thomas won the recent 1650yd event by 38 seconds. The story started appearing in mainstream media and attracting attention, and suddenly Lia Thomas starts putting in performances well below their previous bests.

But it is irrelevant whether or nor Lia Thomas is beaten by natal females. The simple fact is that Women's sports categories are segregated by sex due to the inherent advantage that males have over females. Hormones only diminish some of that advantage. Going through male puberty bestows a permanent advantage. Greater lung capacity, heart and frame size, blood oxygenation, etc. The studies for this have been done, and the data is in, and is incontrovertible. No male has any business competing in women's only sports. To argue for allowing any males to participate in women's categories, is to argue for the destruction of women's sports.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446012#Comment_118446012

The destruction of woman's sports is appealing to alot of the activists involved.

There is a often a raw current of misogyny in this.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445996#Comment_118445996

I know that.

I even said it my op that Henig is transitioning female to male.

But, as he has yet to begin any hormone treatment his body is the same as any biologically female body.

Something people here can't quite seem to grasp.

The transgender woman was beaten by someone with a biologically female body who happens to be transitioning into a man.

Both of them athletes for Ivy League colleges even before they transitioned so hardly proof that average bloke could beat best woman.

I confess. I'm highly amused.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

Elite female athletes are matched by 14/15 year old schoolboys.

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

You should be amused enough to educate yourself, Men are on average 10% better than females at the top level of athletics, to argue otherwise is lunacy.

Men should not compete against women in sports that require strength and stamina, the recent event where a man beat a woman to a pulp in combat sports should have been a wake up call to women who actually care about other women health but it seems the extremists will go to any lengths to prove women are the equal of men in sports which they certainly are not, compete in intellectual endeavours against men as that is fair on women but stay away from allowing men that transition to women to compete with biological women who are at a very big disadvantage.

Do you actually think that a top elite sportswoman who transitions to a man can actually compete with elite men?

Can you show me a world record in sport where a woman has a better time than a man?

Can you even show me where they would be in the same category taking into account the 100m world records on track are approx 1 second apart, the 200 meters approx 2 seconds apart and the marathon are 16 minutes apart?

Jequ0n

Of course you are amused, OP. The only thing you are achieving with this thread is keeping the whole endless debate on transgender rights alive.

I am sure there are a lot of people who can’t ever accept the concept that trans people exist, but a lot do. What is really, really tiring is having the issue rubbed in your face all the time, as if it is a priority that mankind needs to fix asap. For the vast majority of people this is not a burning issue, and this continuous lecturing is nothing but tedious.

As usual this thread follows the trend of attack and counter attack (this isn’t aimed at the OP, but people in general), so I am not sure how this will achieve anything but traffic.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446012#Comment_118446012

I'd go one step further.

Even if it were physically possible to literally adjust a biological man's body so that it was indistinguishable from a biological female's body, that person should still not be allowed to enter the women's competition simply because they're not biological women.

If we start to debate physical ability etc., we lose perspective on the much bigger picture that biological males have no place in biological female's sports - irrespective of what they identify as, and irrespective of what their "lung capacity" happens to be etc.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445526#Comment_118445526

If you went ahead with full sexual reassignment surgery to do so, your argument might actually carry some weight. I wonder how many male athletes around the world care enough about winning something at some level (as a woman) that they will go ahead and lop off their penis and balls?

Would you think quite a few? Or maybe not so many?

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446376#Comment_118446376

Where are the attacks?

I have seen facts being presented to the OP who has ignored them to suit her own beliefs.

We have seen golf give exemptions to women golfers to play in mens tournaments but it never took off, why?

Melanchthon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

Is his body the same as any female body? As in apparently they haven't legally transitioned, what other changes have occurred? E.g surgical , what's the hormonal regime they are on that won't necessarily trigger the governing rules

Isn't it a bit weird that the only person to beat the MtoF athlete is a FtoM

greyday

For the OP, I truly believe women are better than men in a whole range of things in everyday life, Sport is just one where the facts prove this is not the case.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446103#Comment_118446103

Hang on - headline says "transgender man wins..." - but Henig lost...? Or am I misunderstanding?

EDIT - I am, apologies, I thought Thomas had won as it was her name in the headlines and photos on the links)

ctrl-alt-delete

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118444294#Comment_118444294

Yes, but beat a man that wants to be a woman I think.

It will get messy when we have mixed relay team's, whilst also bringing new meaning to passing the baton.

plodder

The gender complication here shows why it makes more sense to talk in terms of sex. A natal (sex) woman was faster than a natal (sex) man. There is nothing unusual about that.

I'm a man who used to be a middle of the pack runner. Though in some mass participation races I'd have been in the top third of male finishers, but I never ran a race where I wasn't beaten by many women. So, it means nothing that a natal woman can beat a natal man. There is a significant overlap between male and female performance. The performance difference between men and women is most obvious at the top level.

Harryd225

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

😂😂😂

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446680#Comment_118446680

This is true but has little bearing on the topic, elite women or even women in the top 10% of their sport are more than capable of beating men that are in the 20-40% category of their sport, at top level this is not the case.

In combat sports you will find the same but the damage done to a woman can and if they continue on this path will end in the loss of life of a woman to a man that has transitioned.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446726#Comment_118446726

It simply doesn't matter.

Even if the stats were evened out, is it justifiable for a biological male to take the place of a biological female in a women's competition - when that woman may have been training for decades to get that position?

That's the real question here; the real damage to women's sport begins at this fundamental, foundational point.

As I've said before, trans- activists raise the "advantage" question as a red herring to avoid the above biological reality (which they are unable to debate against).

greyday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446738#Comment_118446738

That's fair enough.

Bannasidhe

Every single time transgender women participating in any women's event is, and I use the term loosely, debated in this forum the sudden concern for women's sports is overwhelming.

Even the blasted Rose of Tralee thread.

Some of that concern is genuine, but some is but but "men will always beat women on a level playing field and I might get banned for this but ya can't change biological so this will mean the end of women's sports ".

The assumption being talent, skill, training, technique are meaningless.

Well, here we have Lia Thomas, an elite athlete ( I am sure someone will want to argue that US Ivy League Colleges are not represented by elite athletes) who competed pre-transition as a male, and post- transition,following hormone treatment, this athlete competed very successfully in women's events.

In a recent prestigious swim meet this transgender woman athlete was beaten by a competitor who is 100% still biologically female.

There have been a few oh but what did the winner take/do to give them a (manly) edge comments.

It's in the article. No hormones have been taken by Henig. Zero. Nada. None. Henig had a double mastectomy- as have many female athletes for various reasons yet we haven't seen them win a plethora of victories.

Henig identifies as male but has yet to begin hormonal transition. Therefore under the rules Henig is still technically female.

Thomas identifies as female and has been taking hormones fir several years.

Henig beat Thomas. Twice.

greyday

Will you please show me a world record in sport that a woman has which is better than a mans?

The exception does not prove the rule.

I am left with the impression you are happy enough for a man that has transitioned to beat a woman to a pulp to suit your beliefs/wants.

You will not be remembered well in time when when the gullible realise the evidence was there but you championed the killing of women by transitioned men, JMHO.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446779#Comment_118446779

What part of "it doesn't matter if men beat women or vice versa" don't you understand?

It's not about advantage.

It's simple reality: that biological males, irrespective of how they identify, should not compete with biological females.

No matter how much you try to ignore this reality; it is the reality.

Trying to divert everyone down the rabbit hole of genetics and hormone levels etc. won't, and will never, undermine the above.