Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445925#Comment_118445925

Point I was trying to make was that the majority of males in general would have little chance in beating a professional female boxer; purely because they've had no boxing (or perhaps any kind of fighting) training.. There are rules after all 😊 It would be a boxing match in my hypothetical scenario; not a brawl....

I don't/wasn't disputing the fact that even a journeyman in their own category would give either of the two females mentioned, a hammering in the ring.. I thought I was affirming said point. Maybe I gave the ladies too much credit perhaps, and even a chap (in the correct weight division) with 6 months training would win at a greater rate than the 2/3s that I notionally credited them with 😋

Sandor Clegane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446779#Comment_118446779

This is the sort of pretzel logic that you end up with when you have convinced yourself that transwomen are literally women. It is nonsensical, and doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, and no one outside of a small echo chamber buys it. A particular trans identifying male getting beaten by a natal female is irrelevant. You may as well argue that because Serena Williams can beat 99.9% of males at tennis, tennis should not be sex segregated.

The issue is really quite simple:

There are separate categories for women's sports because males have a biological advantage over females.

No amount of hormone treatments or testosterone reduction fully removes this advantage, as males will always benefit from having gone through male puberty. They retain advantages from testosterone the same way a doper retains advantages from having trained while on steroids, and then stopping the steroids for competition testing. Males also benefit from inherent body differences.

To allow any category of males compete in the women's categories, completely undermines why women's categories exist in the first place. It would destroy women's and girl's sports.

But knock yourself out and campaign away for trans identifying males to be allowed compete against women. The latest surveys by the trans advocacy groups in America revealed that it was the single biggest issue with the public and that it was counter-productive to their cause, and they advised rolling back on campaigning for it. The vast majority of the public do not believe that trans identifying males are literally female, and sports is the area where this gets highlighted. When the public have their eyes opened up to this reality, they next ask themselves, should male rapists really be locked up with female rape victims? Should those rape victims also have to share shelters with males? The whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446957#Comment_118446957

Gee.

Such wordy telling me what I am apparently doing.

As if posting on boards.ie is "campaigning".

For all your wordy, and that of those who share your opinion, the results of the races remain the same.

Transgender woman alledgedly have an advantage, Thomas was beaten by someone who did not possess this alleged advantage. Someone who was a faster swimmer in those two races.

A fair and square victory.

Ascribe all the imaginary reasons I started the thread all you wish but the fact remains that all my posts are commenting on the fact that this so called advantage didn't happen.

But sure it's easier to have a go at the OP then explain what happened to the alledged advantage transgender women athletes have that apparently will mean the end of women's sport.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447081#Comment_118447081

Males, as a group, have an advantage over females. One particular female being faster than a particular male is irrelevant. The same way that the fact that Katie Taylor being able to box the head off me, doesn't alter the fact that males, on average have an advantage over females. This is basic statistics and logic. That you have found yourself trying to argue that a female beating a male somehow proves that males don't have an advantage shows the insanity of your position.

You need to ask yourself, why are there separate sports categories for women and girls? When you are able to understand and answer that question honestly, you will understand how ridiculous and untenable your position is.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447081#Comment_118447081

But sure it's easier to have a go at the OP then explain what happened to the alleged advantage transgender women athletes have that apparently will mean the end of women's sport.

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/under-scrutiny-in-routine-final-home-meet-penns-lia-thomas-wins-twice/

In the pool, a strong season continued for Thomas. She won the 200 free in 1:48.73, nearly nine seconds short of her season-best.

Thomas finished sixth in the women’s 100 free in 52.84. The win went to Izzi Henig in 49.57, within .15 seconds of Thomas’s pool record from the fall season.

After the break, Thomas won the 500 free in 4:57.20, just 1.47 seconds quicker than teammate Catherine Buroker in a Penn 1-2-3 finish. It was 22 seconds off Thomas’s best time this season.

Thomas anchored Penn’s A 400 free relay with a split of 51.94; [over 2.5 seconds off her best] she dove in third, and the team finished third. (Her split was slower than all four legs of Yale’s A squad, which won in 3:42.76.

also probably worth mentioning, Lia may be targeting longer race distances, compared to Iszac

ISZAC HENIG

50-yard freestyle: 22.59

100-yard freestyle: 48.90

200-yard freestyle: 1:47.39

500-yard freestyle: 4:49.85

https://yalebulldogs.com/sports/womens-swimming-and-diving/roster/iszac-henig/17380

LIA THOMAS

50-yard freestyle: 22.78

100-yard freestyle: 49.42

200-yard freestyle: 1:41.93

500-yard freestyle: 4:34.06

1000-yard freestyle: 9:35.96

1650-yard freestyle: 15:59.71

https://pennathletics.com/sports/2019/11/14/womens-swimming-top-times.aspx

fritzelly

Why is this even big news except maybe for some illogical reason that there is no reason why trans woman cannot compete in women's tournaments

patnor1011

Trans woman should compete in trans woman tournaments. Trans man in trans man tournaments. Problem solved.

piplip87

Could it be that in this case the best swimmer won. Now be interesting when they transition how will they get on against biological males ?

You can identify as anything you want to identify as but when it comes to sports either have a trans Olympics or compete against your own sex..

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447081#Comment_118447081

The problem is that you believe, fervently and with an almost religious fervour, that biological males (who identify as 'women') should be allowed to compete with biological women. That they are the same category of person; that women must welcome biological males to join them in competitions.

As long as that faith-based position is held, nobody can or will take your arguments seriously.

And no amount of "empathy" can change these facts.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447149#Comment_118447149

I have voiced no "position" - unlike yourself.

Unless you consider saying that the evidence states that it is not a given that transgender women will (due to this advantage some people claim they have) always win which will destroy women's sport is a position.

My actual position is that it is a very complex subject that requires careful consideration, making blanket statements about biological male bodies having an advantage is kneejerking until the full evidence is available, as is seeking a one size fits all approach to sports. Women play a hell of a lot of different sports - it's not all Katie Taylor.

Podge_irl

Transgender women have a physical advantage =/= transgender women will win 100% of the time.

I could enter the Tour de France on an electric bike and I still wouldn't win.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448972#Comment_118448972

Yet Transgender woman lost twice in same race meet so that's demonstrably nonsense.

RayCon

I'm reading through this thread with a "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is" head on me 😕

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448995#Comment_118448995

=/= means does not equal. Claiming they don't have an unfair advantage just because they lost is a fallacy.

Not least because on this occasion she appears to have been swimming well of her best times.

Biological males should compete with biological males. Biological females should compete with biological females.

Transgenders should compete against each other as that’s a fair way to determine if those who were born male are winning to a greater extent than those born female.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449032#Comment_118449032

Crap advantage if they get beaten.

Or, and this is the point - it's not so much an advantage, if it exists, that it should disqualify them.

Most top athletes have some physical advantage that gives them an edge - do we ban tall left handed tennis players? Basketball players over 7 foot tall? Swimmers with big feet? Footballers who are ambipedal? Do athletes with these physical advantages always win?

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449109#Comment_118449109

Do you believe there are enough transgender sports people to make this possible?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449117#Comment_118449117

I believe there are more and more transitioning as the years go by. The stigma around it has gone but sadly, it’s a the detriment to female rights.

This one swim meet where they didn’t win means nothing. Lots of reasons for being out of form for one swim meet.

Podge_irl

Crap advantage if they get beaten.

That is appalling logic. Are you suggesting no one gets banned for doping unless they win? (no, I do not think this is the same as doping)

Most top athletes have some physical advantage that gives them an edge - do we ban tall left handed tennis players? Basketball players over 7 foot tall? Swimmers with big feet? Footballers who are ambipedal? Do athletes with these physical advantages always win?

Sport is trying to find advantages and celebrate them. The decision has been made to segregate sport by sex as it is such an overwhelming advantage it drowns out everything else.

Has anybody heard tell of puberty blockers?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449112#Comment_118449112

You're right.

Biological males shouldn't be disqualified from women's sport based on advantage.

Biological males should be disqualified because they are not members of the category, biological females.

Cats shouldn't be disqualified from a dog competition based on advantage.

Cats should be disqualified because they are not members of the category, Canis familiaris.

Low-fat cheese shouldn't be disqualified from the Safeway World Championship Pumpkin Weigh-Off based on advantage.

Low-fat cheese shouldn't be allowed to compete because low-fat cheese is not a member of the genus, Cucurbita.

---

You presumably agree with the bottom two examples?

The only difference is that rest of us are consistent across all three.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118448995#Comment_118448995

if you put, say Derval O'Rourke up against Mo Farah in the 100 meters, she might beat him. Put Sonia O'Sullivan against Farah in the 5,000 metres, not a hope

Cuddlesworth

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

Put a competitive teenage north american boy against the worlds female Olympic athletes and in most cases the boys win.

The real question has always been, how much of that advantage is removed by drugs and is it fair for female athletes to compete, fairness being one of the main driver behind most sports.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449208#Comment_118449208

If it's not the same why even bring doping into it?

Caster Semenya hasn't been celebrated. Far from it. She, biologically female and identifies as female, is being punished for her natural advantage. In the 12 years of her competitive career she was restricted for 9 of those years - the most infamous if these restrictions being she should artificially lower her naturally occurring testosterone. Literally take performance inhibiting drugs.

Semenya isn't the only biologically female athlete subject to this body policing to reduce a naturally occurring advantage. In recent years alone Christine Mboma who won silver in Tokyo, Francine Niyonsaba who won silver in Rio, and Margaret Wambui who it was discovered, in 2019, has an intersex condition. All were assigned as female at birth and have lived their lives as women.

Sex verification of male athletes is not undertaken but a study in 2014 of 693 elite athletes showed 16.5% of the biologically male ones have very low testosterone levels while 13. 7% of females has high levels. Essentially the levels of naturally occurring testosterone in these two groups was pretty much on the same level regardless of biological sex.

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445272#Comment_118445272

What relevance is this?

Are you trying to say that women that have undergone mastectomies shouldn't compete in women's sports?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449748#Comment_118449748

Castor Semenya is intersex, not trans-.

What a totally misleading comparison.

Gregor Samsa

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447397#Comment_118447397

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118447770#Comment_118447770

Trans men are men. Trans women are women.

Bizarre that we've got to the point that the people who won't acknowledge that are now claiming that there's 4 sexes! 🤣

plodder

Cases like Caster Semenya are the really tough ones. But, I don't see what her being intersex (XY chromosomes) has to do with trans women whose sex isn't in doubt at all.

Sunny Disposition

I'm all for transgender rights, live and let live. Unfortunately there is an issue with sport, that does need a solution, unfortunately allowing people born male to compete in female competition won't work . I don't have the answer, but it definitely isn't pretending there is no issue.

Maybe we need to move away from gendered competition to some extent, maybe insist on certain hormone levels at elite level rather than gender. But let's not pretend there's no issue that requires some new thinking.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118449748#Comment_118449748

If it's not the same why even bring doping into it?

Because it refutes the entirely specious argument that they can't have an unfair advantage if they didn't win.

Semenya and other intersex athletes are an incredibly complicated situation. I think mandating medicalisation is definitely not the correct way forward, but I am really not sure what is. However, it is of little relevance to this debate.

Ultimately the gap between male and female sex performance in top end athletics is simply too large to have any fair cross competition.

patnor1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118450096#Comment_118450096

Trans man are trans man and trans woman are trans woman. Bizarre is something else.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446422#Comment_118446422

The vast majority of transwomen—in excess of (a very conservative) 90%—do not undergo genital sex reassignment surgery, and are not required to in order to take part in sports. So it's a moot point.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452936#Comment_118452936

If that is indeed the case, it is a fair point. Having said that, I still don't know how many competitive men will switch to competing as female just for the warm glow of victory.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452990#Comment_118452990

Really? You can't see men who are not competitive in men's leagues but could be in women's leagues "transitioning" in order to gain an advantage? I'd agree there wouldn't be many, but there'd be enough to blast women's hard-won records out of the water in fairly short order. Particularly in the US, where sporting ability is often tied to college scholarships and so on.

In any case, women are not simply men without penises. Participating in women's sports is not (and should not be) some reward that transwomen get for having a difficult surgery.

generic_throwaway

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453039#Comment_118453039

I really can't. Given that it's possible today, and we don't see a whole lot (or any?) trans women sweeping all before them, I'm wondering if this is something of a storm in a teacup. The type of moral panic that will look ridiculous in 20 years, perhaps?

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453076#Comment_118453076

My hope and prediction is that there are a lot of current-year things that will look ridiculous in 20 years' time.

In any case, I don't think "it won't happen often" is really a good reason to allow male people to compete with female people in sports (particularly at the elite level). It will happen, and women who would otherwise have had the opportunity to compete will be excluded.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118452936#Comment_118452936

Most would do a medical transition, including surgery, of some sort. HRT + orchidectomy would be standard enough.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453332#Comment_118453332

I'm not going on a full hog citation search because I'm heading to bed, but for starters this paper from the US has a range estimate of 5-13% surgery rate for transwomen.

I don't think anyone is obliged to have cosmetic surgery, FWIW, but a LOT of people seem to be under the impression that transwomen have definitionally had their penis and testicles removed and a neovagina constructed, and that this is a requirement for everything from legally changing sex to playing sports, which is not even close to true.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453469#Comment_118453469

I didn't say anything about full bottom surgery. I just wanted to clarify that most would undergo some level of medical transition and it's not easily simplified.

It definitely not required. Some people are happy with this, some are not.

MilkyToast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453479#Comment_118453479

HRT + orchidectomy would be standard enough.

This was what you said.

Orchidectomy would count as surgery in the paper/table I posted. The range was 5-13%, which I wouldn't really call standard enough but YMMV.

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453486#Comment_118453486

Yeah fair enough, I did make it sound like a higher amount were having orchi surgery. Wasn't my intention, also late for me. My main point was regarding medical transition. i.e. it's still a fairly decent commitment and not just changing gender for medals.

plodder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453039#Comment_118453039

"Particularly in the US, where sporting ability is often tied to college scholarships and so on."

In the Lia Thomas case it was interesting that when some of her team-mates raised the issue with their coach, he was said to be "obsessed with winning" and had "boasted of changing the team's losing culture" back in 2016. What better, legal way to do that? I think it's very naive to think sports people and coaches won't exploit all legal avenues open to them, considering they will often go beyond what is legal sometimes.

At the Olympics, the requirement for surgery was dropped in 2015, probably too late for Rio. So, 2020 was really the first opportunity to see transgender athletes at the Olympics who had a relatively straightforward path into women's sport.

Akrasia

Regarding the OP. If this was a transgender Man beating other men in a Men's athletics or swimming event, then she might have had the nugget of a point, but the fact that this athlete identifies as male and still competed in the women's class is a good indicator that this talented athlete did not feel competitive against the Men in his area

chopperbyrne

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118446779#Comment_118446779

As far as I'm aware, Thomas' previous wins were in longer distance races, where male biological advantage would be greater, and most likely what Thomas specialises in.

I'm sure if Haile Gebrselassie or Sebastian Coe had run 100m and 200m races against women Olympians, they'd have been handily beaten too.

There are always going to be edge cases, but as a whole, sport should be separated by sex, as that is by far the biggest factor when it comes to performance levels.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118453711#Comment_118453711

As the OP I have to say that is a leap that could win gold - sadly disqualified as being incorrect.

The winner - he has a name it's Iszac Henig - has yet to undergo ANY hormonal treatment therefore is currently 100% biologically female. Which is made clear in the OP but here is another article that also makes it clear:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10382603/Male-transgender-swimmer-Iszac-Henig-came-teammates-year-did-NOT-testosterone.html

As Henig has only, as he terms it, "socially" transitioned he would not be allowed to compete against men.

Whether or not his decision is avoid hormonally transitioning at this time because he fears he would get hammered if competing against men is the topic for another thread.

The point of this thread is that a transgender woman with a proven record was beaten by a 100% biologically female competitor.

And some comments about a bloke could or could not beat Katie Taylor, transgender women apparently have an advantage which means the death of women's sports (all women's sports it seems - gymnastics should be interesting). And the usual guff about "protecting women's spaces".

Women with naturally occurring testosterone don't count as women apparently even when that is the gender assigned to them at birth, and the one they identify as, they are dismissed as intersex - no-one has any idea how many men are intersex or have increased oestrogen levels and the natural advantage this can give in certain sports. It aids bone and muscle mass, rapid healing, and stamina. Oestrogen is described as a power hormone. Men aren't tested.

Much was made of Hubbard - a transgender women competing in the Olympics in weightlifting where some commentators here were convinced she would win (she didn't.) Ironically, no-one mentioned that a side effect of taking anabolic steroids - once the drug of choice for weightlifters -is an increase in oestrogen (to such an extent males using it can develop breasts). Hubbard was competing against people who have naturally occurring high levels of this power hormone which builds adolescent bodies designed to carry a developing fetus inside for 9 months and then endure the physical demands of labour - i.e strong, with a hell of a lot of stamina.

Zero consideration is given to the possibility that female hormones impart their own advantages, the existence of these hormones in biologically male bodies is not tested so their effect on athletic performance in elite male athletes is not monitored.

The narrative being put forward is that a male body is in every way superior to a female body when it comes to sports. All sports apparently. Even when that male body has has been taking 'female' hormones it retains this superiority. Therefore someone born biologically male will always beat someone born biologically female.

That is demonstrably not correct.

ChickenDish

So a woman wins a woman's race? Why the debate? Its irrelevant what she identifies as, the fact is she is a woman. That being said I do not know her or will ever meet her, nor would I dispute what she identifies as with her in person. If I did I'd quiet happily respect her wishes and treat her as a man.

My while take is ill never intentionally insult a person, ill recognise them how they wish to be recognised, but this will never change the facts. Just because I identify as Brad Pitt, doesn't change the fact I'm not.

* I referred to her as a female not through malice, but simply because she hasn't transitioned yet and we are talking about a female competing in a woman's race.

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454607#Comment_118454607

He identifies as male but as he hasn't begun hormonal transition is still biologically female according to the rules of the sport he is participating in.

To refer to him as her at this point is not respectful as he has made it clear he identifies as male and has had some, not performance influencing, surgical procedures.

Legal recognition of transitioning in the US varies from state to state but afaik it is rare that it as as relatively straight forward as Self ID in Ireland.

Henig has self ID'd - In Ireland he would be considered a man under our laws and his ability to compete in a women's race would be doubtful (I am not familiar with the laws regulating swimming here so I say doubtful rather than forbidden)

Podge_irl

You're right. Men hold the records by a significant distance in pretty much every sport cause women just don't try hard enough

Bannasidhe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118454748#Comment_118454748

Do those men have naturally high levels of oestrogen? Are they inter-sex?

Oh wait - no one knows as men aren't tested.