Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458216#Comment_118458216

Medical or legal or social transition

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458205#Comment_118458205

Seriously: how can you tell if someone is being an arsehole to prove a point, or genuine?

Surely genuine trans people will be far more annoyed about people like this, because their behaviour undermines them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458227#Comment_118458227

So the answer to that question is yes - that a biological male who identifies as a woman, who hasn't had an ounce of surgery and has no plans to, is just as much a woman as a biological female, according to you.

That kind of anti-reality is why people are so opposed to women's competitions' being compromised by biological males.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458261#Comment_118458261

Its a case of tick all of the boxes rinse and repeat ,

You can enter womens events as a man and as long as you say that you identify as a woman you will not be challenged and allowed to take part due to fears of a backlash from self anointed activists

km991148

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458140#Comment_118458140

I just clarified your disengenous post. I've no will to get into the game of weird definitions and abuse of scientific terms that you so love to tie people up in knots with.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458333#Comment_118458333

It's so stupid, it's beyond belief.

satguy

One small step for Man, one giant leap for Cheats.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458260#Comment_118458260

Not sure what exactly you are on about. The guy in Trinity was a cis man acting like an absolute prick. He was never genuine.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458747#Comment_118458747

I don’t know anything about this person or the situation, so I asked. Turns out there was no point asking though it seems.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458765#Comment_118458765

A cis male trinity student joined a race - ticked the female box just to prove a point and came 2nd in the race. He clearly said he did it to prove a point. Apologies I didnt mean to seem rude or dismissive.

Quantum Erasure

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458799#Comment_118458799

I didn't realise he came second, there should be no problem so?

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458817#Comment_118458817

Ah just a prick being a prick

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458799#Comment_118458799

But isn’t that the problem? People being suspicious because you get some individuals abusing the loopholes?

It doesn’t help anyone if the rules are too lose and based on nothing but self identification.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458832#Comment_118458832

Not really. He didnt get a gender identity cert. The problem is he abused Trinity rules to prove a transphobic point.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458799#Comment_118458799

Which suggests that you don't need to do anything legal or medically for men to compete in women's sporting events.,

He was a prick ,but he's proved a big point ,

No matter how hard people to explain it away they can't .

Any man on boards or elsewhere can take part in women's sporting events just by simply saying that they identify as a woman ,no legal,no medical .

Just show up and tick the woman or female box ....

Your man was a prick but a smart prick at that

gozunda

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458846#Comment_118458846

Or perhaps he simply showed the current system in Ireland at least is easily abused. Doing so is certainly not "transphobic" no matter how its viewed.

On the issue of "gender recognition certs" - I'm seriously racking my brain to think of any other type of certification - whether a marriage certificate, passport or driving licence that uses such a low bar as self declaration" without the need for any supporting documentation or validation?

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458747#Comment_118458747

You mean the guy was a man.

Give over this shyte about cis men.

Why relabel 99% percentage of something to suit the 1 % ?

Oh yeah feelings.🙄

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458824#Comment_118458824

That's the whole problem too many people being allowed compete in women's sport have pricks.

Finally you seem to be nearly getting it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445061#Comment_118445061

Street's like a jungle..............

screamer

Could be the aerodynamics at play here.

I’ve no doubt in time, there will be transgender categories for sports, and that may be the fairest way of competing for everyone.

Ash.J.Williams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118445097#Comment_118445097

You are forgiven, it took me a few mins to figure out

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458846#Comment_118458846

Yeah, that was the problem,alright. He didn't fill in the paper work before pointing out the obvious.

Reality is transphobic now apparently, what an age of wonder we live in, eh?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484379#Comment_118484379

He ticked the female box ,

That's all it took, anyone who self identifies as a woman is a real woman

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458747#Comment_118458747

Who are you to deny who they are?

Dial back the presumption, judgement and hate.

Let that person live their life, explore how they understand themselves to be, you might be surprised but how they live is not your business.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118484858#Comment_118484858

What are you on about? He never claimed to be anything other than a cis man.

Thanks but no thanks. I dont need you to tell me what to do.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118485384#Comment_118485384

He said he identified as female .

Hence why he was allowed to enter a females race ,

chopperbyrne

The latest on this is that UPenn swimmers themselves don't want Thomas to compete in the female category.

https://www.complex.com/sports/16-upenn-swimmers-issue-letter-supporting-rule-prevent-transgender-lia-thomas-competing

They also don't feel comfortable in their own changing rooms.

https://www.rt.com/sport/547609-lia-thomas-teammate-transgender-locker-rooms/

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118600692#Comment_118600692

Instantly going from #462 as a male to #1 as a female says it all really.

AckwelFoley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118458799#Comment_118458799

A genuine apology on the Internet.

Rather refreshing

Frame it 😆

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118466550#Comment_118466550

Could have been a woman who had transitioned to be a man. The distinction is kind of important, given the point he was trying to make (rightly or wrongly).

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607040#Comment_118607040

When it comes to sport, men who identify as women have a huge physical advantage over biological women in the vast majority of women's sports. That's why so many people think it's unfair to let someone born a biological male take place in female sports. It's a disadvantage for biological women to identify as men and take part in men's sport so there won't be many complaints about that.

jmayo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611373#Comment_118611373

Won't happen because you have flutes on twitter, on other forms of social media, in the mainstream media, hell even on here that will howl that the women are being transphobic and are no better than a 19th century man who wants to keep poor downtrodden "women" down.

It can be career ending, could mean loss of sponsors, being kicked off the team or in case of college athletes in the states loss of scholarship and hence end of college.

Hell look how trail blazing LGB rights advocate Martina Navratilova was hounded because she dared question it.

The chattering social media right on classes are becoming very powerful, all it takes is a few to start the ball rolling.

It is getting to the stage to be like McCarthyism in the States in the 50s.

It has to be everyone as united they stand and divided they will surely fail.

Now one could say that one way is for viewers and spectators to just walk away, but viewers especially those against it will watch to be able to complain and say I told you so. It is just the way people are.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118611373#Comment_118611373

They would lose corporate sponsorship, media backlash, progressive activists beat them up etc.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612445#Comment_118612445

Talk about missing the finer nuances of the debate mate. In sport there is ample evidence that yes, trans women have an advantage for roughly a year. If I recall the IAA brought in a rule that trans women if competing should have a testosterone level of approx 5 nmol/L for approximately a year preceeding races they intended to enter. After the year, the ground was more or less even. There is an edge in terms of muscle mass but its not all that great and will require individual sports to be tailored. Calling out their biology of who they were and who they are now means that if you do think that being a trans woman is still a man then you would have to account for lower rates of testosterone as in men its 10 nmol/L. IOC rules have been consitently looked at by doctors working in the field. What would you tend to trust more - a medical physician with ten years experience or Barry the Banker who read an article on the Guardian and choked on his bottle of Heiniken ?

PS Mc Carthyism stemmed from the Red Scare for communists - Most communists would support the transition of people as it fits in with empowering the individual over those at the top of society...makes your fairly facile point kind of ironic

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612579#Comment_118612579

A person who under went male puberty has a life long advantage.

Even if their testosterone levels are dropped to a level low for a woman.

Muscle mass is just one part of it. Lung capacity, bone structure and layout, ligament, heart size, etc.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612614#Comment_118612614

Not at all I am afraid, you are quite wrong on that

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trans-girls-belong-on-girls-sports-teams/

Scientific American -

The notion of transgender girls having an unfair advantage comes from the idea that testosterone causes physical changes such as an increase in muscle mass. But transgender girls are not the only girls with high testosterone levels. An estimated 10 percent of women have polycystic ovarian syndrome, which results in elevated testosterone levels. They are not banned from female sports. Transgender girls on puberty blockers, on the other hand, have negligible testosterone levels

Are we going to go around in circles again with the debunked notion of physical supremacy of trans women over women?

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612683#Comment_118612683

That's not relevant to point.

Not sure how you think it is.

Liberty_Bear

You claimed they had a life long advantage

I posted they didnt with evidence

Whats your rebuttal to my point

Quantum Erasure

From the UK Sports Council Equality Group 

https://equalityinsport.org/resources/index.html

Long-term evidence indicates that males have numerous physical advantages in sport compared with females, and this is recognised in law in ‘gender-affected sport’. Current research indicates that testosterone suppression does not negate this physical advantage over females and so cannot guarantee competitive fairness and/or safety. This information is explained further in the Guidance and in full in the documents on Scientific Research and Policy.

The Review concluded that transgender inclusion, fairness and safety cannot be balanced in gender-affected sport, but rather need to be prioritised across different options available to each sport. These options are explained in the Guidance Document.

Quantum Erasure

From World Rugby

https://www.world.rugby/news/591776/world-rugby-approves-updated-transgender-participation-guidelines (link to PDF at bottom of page)

the full bars represent the advantage of males over females, the dark blue represents the reduction in that advantage after a year of hormone therapy

Liberty_Bear

Jack Turban is a man at the top of his field and a very eminent psychiatrist. He has a long standing reputation in his field and is highly thought of in Stanford University (where he is tenured but correct me if I am wrong). We'll let the attack on his credentials slide as no one gets to be in that position on the basis of lies. Im going to tackle the veracity of what you claim and not entertain ad hominem attacks that add nothing to the conversation (and by the same standard what you cited about Scientific American that covers a wide range of ground on various topics)

It appears you may have picked up the How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation piece wrong - I draw your attention to the following

After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed

This ties back in with what the article that I posted that over time there is a levelling off of the muscle mass attributed to attrition as they have lowered amounts of testosterone on their system. Lest we forget that there is Polycysitic Ovaries Syndrome (hereafter referred to as PCOS) that has driven up the levels of testosterone in cis women over the years. These women are not asked to compete in male sports as the levels of tesosterone as in line with accepted parameters. You do talk a good game but the devil is in the detail and alas I think you might need to read back over the link !

The missed part of your argument is that these are women who transitioned after they had hit puberty. The levelling of the playing field may be that there is going to be an allowance made for those who took puberty blockers and never developed the other physical attributes that may confer a physical advantage. When taken into account that a large number of women do suffer from PCOS (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7159262/#:~:text=PCOS%20appears%20to%20be%20a,than%20by%20those%20without%20(Fig.) this then begs the question why women with a certain amount of testosterone are not being held to the same standard as women who transitioned.

Would you agree then that the best way perhaps to level the playing field (pun intended) is to just allow those who never went through puberty to participate and to not allow those with PCOS to compete or another middle ground?

I should add, that the patronising attitude that you elicit

This is kindergarten level stuff that anyone with half a brain understands. The fact that it even needs studies, or time wasted to explain it is just embarrassing.

I discuss these with you in good faith and the least you can do is park the animosity prevalent in your post. It taints the quality that you write with.

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613807#Comment_118613807

Turban is a psychiatrist not a medical or physiological expert.

TheW1zard

I'm 356 years old then

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613858#Comment_118613858

The use of puberty blockers is to prevent secondary sexual characteristics that develop before they transition. Ireland has a robust mechanism to address the matter , including seeing a psychologist and living as a chosen gender for two years. What you have done here is not even stretched as far as answering a reasonable question but instead have postured into the abstract with the eloquntly phrased "they are sterilsed and will never mature to have sexual function of any description, except at the hands of paedphiles" (Ive not seen anyone jump the shark like that in a number of years). Are psychologists and the medical profession wrong then and you are correct?

I never thought I would see the day I became woke...I need a stiff drink!

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613864#Comment_118613864

Psychiatrists must complete medical school and an additional four years of residency training in psychiatry in the US. These four years are general medicine...

BTW His degree is neurobiology !

😘

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613878#Comment_118613878

Without the requisite specialisation and years of practice in either sports medicine or physiology, you may as well be asking a GP for their opinion as listening to Turban.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613891#Comment_118613891

In UK its four years medicine and three years additional on top...not sure about US

So in effect what we have are people with no medical degrees commenting on those who have several years experience

How do you think people might percieve that?

Mike Murdock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118613899#Comment_118613899

Perceive what? The fact that chancers like Turban are called out? That's a good thing.

Having a degree does not make you an expert.

dubdaymo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118612512#Comment_118612512

I did say it would require courage. If every woman in every sport took this protest action collectively there would be no women in women's events where a man showed up so the organisers would be left running women's events with a man (or men) only. How ridiculous would the organisers look then.

If nothing is done to stop it now, as time goes on no women will be winning any trophies/medals.

If women genuinely do not want themselves pitted against men then it requires a major effort by women to nip this nonsense/injustice in the bud. If (all) women don't fight against it then no one else can help them and they can complain all they like when a man walks into their dressing rooms, toilets, showers and events but nobody will listen anymore.

Podge_irl

After 4 months of hormone therapy, transwomen have Hgb/HCT levels equivalent to those of cisgender women. After 12 months of hormone therapy, significant decreases in measures of strength, LBM and muscle area are observed

While this is true, it is omitting the fact that the decrease is significantly less than the original advantage.

The PCOS thing is a complete red herring and all it does is to highlight the fact that, indeed, testosterone level is not a good barometer for fairness. Much like lowering testosterone does not remove the inherent advantage males have. (that being said, as the paper you linked notes, "At the same time, the level of testosterone in women with PCOS remains typically within the upper part of the normal range").

Testosterone and the body's ability to use it during puberty have a much, much larger impact then your testosterone level as an adult.