"Nice Guys"

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798464#Comment_118798464

Certain women seek out, and manipulate, these fellas in the same way that some men might seek out emotionally vulnerable women to manipulate and to take advantage of them. Women have equal agency in these matters. That is probably what turns some of them so bitter. The fellas just have to own their own mistakes and learn from it and move on and try to not get into the same situation again.

I don't think anyone would post the equivalent of your post flipped towards women who had found themselves in abusive relationships or situations. Nobody would castigate such as woman for needy and unattractive behaviour when some men walk all over her. I know plenty of girls who stayed for long periods with fellas who were clearly (to anyone else) only using them all the while messing around when the girl actually wanted a committed relationship.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798428#Comment_118798428

Are the "incel" crowd people who think they can't get anything anything, or people who fixate on one "target" and then get pis$ed when they get no traction? Genuine question.

HamSarris

The solution to incel culture/mgtow is not for men to get their act together, but rather acceptance. Acceptance that young men will struggle in the dating market while their female counterparts will have hundreds of options. Acceptance that online dating has exacerbated hypergamy and a small group of men will have most of the dating success through hook up culture and serial monogamy. The rise in male celibacy since online dating is evidence of this. Acceptance that as they become more established in their 30s, their dating success will improve and women who previously rejected them may start to notice them – simply that they should be patient, focus on other areas of their lives during their 20s rather than chasing women. 

Men may know these dynamics but not actually accept them. There’s a difference between an angry man complaining about women’s high standards and guy who just sees hypergamy as the way of the world. In the same way we accept economic inequality in society and get on with our lives, rather than complaining everyday about the unfairness. And if you think hypergamy in an incel myth, look at any online dating statistics (e.g., tinder insights) where you’ll see women getting multiple dates from swiping right on a few guys and men getting zero dates from 1000s of swipes.

The idea that these men just need to work on themselves and everything will be solved is a terrible argument. It’s about as useful as telling poor people to all learn to become rich businessmen. Only a proportion of men in society will be instinctively attractive to women, whether that be through physical looks or status. Only 20% of men can be in the top 20% of men. If every man upped his game then female standards would shift upwards.  

The flip side of mgtow is depressed middle aged women, although they’re obviously not as loud as angry young men. Women who have either failed to find a partner or are unfulfilled in their relationships. Antidepressant use is incredibly high among middle aged women, about 16% in England. Modern society and online dating is creating more and more of such disillusioned, isolated women – women being told to focus on advancing their careers before settling down, that they should never settle in their relationships and that the right guy will come along. Advising women to wait to find a husband outside their peak attractiveness years isn’t the smartest advice.

So online dating has created two particularly disgruntled/depressed sections of society and the situation is unlikely to get better. But acceptance can ease the sense of frustration and entitlement. 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798522#Comment_118798522

I've known a few guys who would consider themselves as being incel. They've given up on wanting romantic relationships with women. They're not hating all women, they just have very strong opinions about the women they've encountered in their own lives. So, due to those negative experiences, they've chosen to not get involved with any more women for a relationship. I know they still "date"/hookup through tinder/online, but are very upfront with the women that they don't want anything more than the casual experience. These guys are not silly little teens with confidence problems. These would be mature men, who have been around the block, were married, and have since been divorced. Two of them never married, but were in abusive long-term relationships that ended quite badly (Both of these guys would be considered very attractive by most women).

I met them through a men's rights event a few years ago. Lovely guys.. they just have a lot of anger over what happened to them. Which, to be fair, from what I've heard from them (one sided I know), they have some cause to be angry.

Incels are more than the pathetic guys you see on reddit, or in forums. Many of them are guys in their 30s/40s who have already experienced quite a bit that life has to offer, would be successful financially, etc. It's just easier to throw out the stereotype that incels are creepy guys who never grew up, or guys with bile pouring from their lips all the time. The truth is that it's movement with all kinds of people, with a wide variety of experiences.

PipingProblems

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798283#Comment_118798283

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume it happened. It's far more like it happened how that poster said than what you're saying. You never had a friend complain they didn't get laid? Have you never been to university?

No, it's being a decent person and doing what you can to de-escalate a situation. It was the pub manager who began the process, I and another fella just happened to be big enough and sober enough to lend a hand. I'm happily married.

I'm not equating anything to Potential Monke's story. My story was talking about a guy who no doubt thought of himself as a nice guy, but in reality was harassing strange women in the pub. His story was about friend zoning.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798726#Comment_118798726

What basis do you have to assume the drunk fella "no doubt thought of himself as a nice guy"?

You are shifting the goalposts. Nobody mentioned anyone saying that the "can't get laid". It was about someone openly complaining that a specific person had "friendzoned" them. The question was whether you ever had a friend who went to a girl and complained to the girl because she wasn't interested in riding him as she had unfairly or incorrectly "friendzoned" him? Did you maybe offer to help him draft a letter to send to his solicitor to forward on to her as an official complaint? 😂

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798685#Comment_118798685

I suppose there are plenty of women as well who give up on relationships with men as well. If someone makes the decision that they want to be single or that relationships are too much hassle, I don't see anything wrong with that. As long as they aren't bitter about it.

When you say "movement" is it actually an organised or semi-organised thing? I had the impression it was just sad extreme loners on their own.

PipingProblems

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798805#Comment_118798805

The biggest clue, like I mentioned, was that he was roaring it at her?

But that's essentially what this guy was doing, no? The poster said he was pretending to be her friend and then whinged to another friend that she friendzoned him because she wasn't interested in sleeping with him, and he felt he was entitled to do so. Ergo, he was complaining he didn't get laid. It's really not far fetched.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798514#Comment_118798514

I am getting really tired of people labelling everything as abusive behaviour. Though I have to agree that the same actions/ behaviours tend to be viewed differently based on the gender of the players.

Potential-Monke

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798919#Comment_118798919

This thread is confusing the feck out of me, so not sure if this was directed towards my comment on my situation. Apologies if not, and I'm not having a go in return, just wanted to clarify. I didn't intend for it to come across like that, so again apologies if it did. I don't do English good sometimes. There was no pretense of friendship, it was a very close friendship. One that started as friends as I was still in a relationship at the time, happily, when we met.

What she was doing was, knowingly, bring me up to a point where the next action would have made the final decision, but always backed away. Of course, I can plainly see it as it is now, but at the time I was blind to it. As I never had success elsewhere, this was filling a void I had, and while it was annoying to never get there, or get a final answer, it was still a little bit of something I had nothing of at the time. Another example of good for me now but bad for me later. The way we were together, outside of anything sexual, was nearly closer than most relationships I had. We genuinely liked the same things, enjoyed most the same activites, events, music, films... Her family were saying it to her, my family were saying it to me... But I'm of the opinion that because I didn't have the trophy looks, that prevented it ever going further. But I was, in effect, an emotional blanket for her while she was one for me.

It really came to fore soon after we went our separate ways, the messages stopped and I found out she had hooked up with someone. Less than 4 months later the messages started off again, and I discovered they had broke up. But this was the first time I wasn't physically around for it. We haven't talked in a few years at this stage.

So friendzone, to me, means keeping someone around for the emotional support of a relationship partner, without actually being in a relationship. In hindsight, we were both using each other for different reasons, with neither of us wanting to find out a definite answer for fear of ruining what was, essentially, a small win-win for both of us, compared to the big loss-loss if one of us made the move and ruined the relationship in general. Again, in hindsight, bad in the long run. But humanity are not the best at looking to the future...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798814#Comment_118798814

What's wrong with being bitter about it? No, seriously. My first serious girlfriend cheated on me with a wide variety of guys and girls. It's over a decade ago, and I'm still bitter about it, because she was a bitch. (She's also one of my best friends now, but she's still a bitch when it comes to relationships) I wasn't any kind of simpering idiot, but I'd been working a lot, trying to build a life around us, and she wasn't interested. Oh, on the surface she definitely was, but in her spaces where she was free from me? Nope. And.. while I understand her a lot better now (we've talked extensively since then), I'm still bitter about those experiences, because they popped a bubble. Those experiences destroyed my innocence when it came to love, relationships and most importantly, Trust. It made me truly appreciative of just how manipulative women could be (and I've since learned that men can be just as bad, but it's a more common thing with women).

Sure, it was a good thing in a way, as I learned to be more practical (and less trusting) in all my relationships since, but.. bitter? I see no problem with being bitter over what happened. I was abused. Perhaps that sounds melodramatic, but the truth is that her actions have had enormous impact on my development as a person, and by extension, how I interacted with others. The important part is where you/I don't extend that bitterness to every other interaction with other potential partners. Which I didn't, once I got over the initial (a few years) heartache, despondency, and self-esteem issues.

I think a lot of posters to the thread are being a little too flippant about what happens in relationships. Sure, most causal flings mean squat.. to most people. However, the human heart is incredibly illogical. Our hurts are also illogical, and often unreasonable. And when it comes to issues such as love and trust? That's an entirely different prospect with a world of potential hurt involved.

When you say "movement" is it actually an organised or semi-organised thing? I had the impression it was just sad extreme loners on their own.

I consider it a movement, because it's a social/cultural movement, the same way that feminism was in it's infancy. It's no different from a host of other social change movements where people are objecting to the status quo. I don't see there being any need for a movement to be official, and having a structure to point to. After all, feminism, which is the most successful movement of all time, is hardly organised, and represents a wide variety of opinions, and behaviours.

As for it just being sad loners, nope. There's a wide variety of people involved, and some of them would be considered successful (by any measure). They've simply had bad experiences with women, and have decided that they need to make a stand against it. They would feel that the negative experiences they had would be common among other women, and so, why bother with it at all? Personally, I can appreciate the idea, but I like women/men too much as romantic partners, and I don't want to stifle that part of my development, regardless of the pain involved.

I'm somewhat active with a variety of men's rights groups both here, and abroad (mailing lists, support groups, financial aid, etc) and I tend to meet a variety of incels at these events. Some are nutty, but most are normal guys. I wouldn't be interested in defending the nutjobs, but I find that when it comes to the concerns of males in society about society, alot of concerns are dismissed out of hand, rather than considering the toxic behaviour/attitudes of the women they've come in contact with. Modern society is not a particularly healthy place for a lot of men.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799619#Comment_118799619

It's both fashionable and career wise to believe women are incapable of malice

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799619#Comment_118799619

You having some bitterness towards an individual is understandable and normal. I assume though that you don't carry that bitterness around with you and inject it into your dealings with everyone else. If you told me you are a modern day male Miss Havisham then I'd say there is an issue

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118773997#Comment_118773997

Whereas its a tiny minority who are hardcore incels, there are many more who are part-time subscribers or incel light.

Not every man is a robert elliot...but there are many who embody a milder version of the same ideology.

ILoveYourVibes

Also any guy who thinks money is the thing he lacks ...well looking at how ukrainian men were celebrating women's day compared to me made me laugh.

You are just not putting the work in. And yes being a nice guy takes a lot more work into your community your friendships and relationships than most people think.

Most girls want a really amazing guy to sweep her off her feet ...some guy whom she can rely on and trust with anything.

A lot of 'nice guys' want to get away with the least effort possible. Not just in dating but in friendships what they do for their community ..and its not attractive in EITHER gender.

Really how awesome are these nice guys? How well would they treat you? What are their amazing achievements? How wise are they? How well would they manage a relationship with you?

They can keep telling themselves its all about money or looks etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799764#Comment_118799764

Nope. I don't. Although, in all honesty, there was a period of time thereafter where I did suspect other women to be the same as my ex. I'd say that's pretty natural though. To be a little gun-shy. Now, I was lucky in that my next few dates and the following girlfriend were great people. It also helped that I stayed in contact with my ex, and came to realise that she is just a "damaged" person, with her own range of issues, and it really wasn't about me. She's like that with everyone... but that knowledge/awareness wouldn't have come to me at the time of the relationship.

However, I can appreciate that it could easily have gone the opposite way too. We like to think we're on the ball in detecting the kinds of people who will manipulate or mistreat us, and therefore, avoid them. But the truth is that there's a lot of luck involved, and sometimes, we only find out the true side of someone after an extensive period with them. I've a close friend who has had a slew of bad relationships. Some of it is his own fault, due to some personal habits/development he failed to do, but a lot was due to the women involved too... he's in a stable relationship now, but he could easily have gone the Incel route... based on that series of negative experiences.

TBH, I don't see how the Miss Havisham reference is relevant. It's an entirely different scenario.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800141#Comment_118800141

Miss Havisham was the jilted bride who became bitter and made it her mission to seek revenge against all men, albeit indirectly. Your ex did bad things to you - I presume you're not permanently ensconced in your house, wandering around in your wedding suit and wearing one shoe.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118797737#Comment_118797737

Just clarify for me you know the difference between can, as in possibly and will, as in definitely.

You said immediately making your interest known will stop you being friends zoned.

it makes no difference how fast you act if the other person is not interested.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800205#Comment_118800205

I think the confusion is how the word "friendzone" is understood. My understanding/interpretation is that it is when one person who is trying and hoping for something more than a friend and the other person is mentally categorising them as only ever a friend.

Normal circumstances would be that if you make an advance and are rejected, you don't stay in the "friendzone". You get over it. And you either drop that person or you stay friends. But that scenario of conflicting intentions is gone.

I have plenty of female friends. I don't consider to have allowed myself to be "friendzoned" by them as they are actually my friends.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800170#Comment_118800170

I feel very attacked right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FSKz0-a-qQ

😂

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800224#Comment_118800224

It's weird ...Im in this position where i have a friend whom i suspect ...expects more despite the fact i have explicitly told him he is not my type personality or physically wise ...and i have supported him as a friend ...even given him money to help him with his rent ...it always seems like its never enough.

He always wants more time etc ..i find him draining ...but he probably from his perspective feels ...oh she friendzoned me

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800261#Comment_118800261

Yeah but you've told him. If he holds onto some delusions then there is not much more that you can do. It might be that you are his only "outlet" but only he can fix that. He might need another hobby. And you say you are helping him. If it was the other way around there might be more of a cause for concern

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800273#Comment_118800273

I would never take anything from him. Even though he has offered.

For that reason. Thing is you can't dismiss the other person's feelings or perspectives.

It's such a shame because he would be interesting to be true mates with.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800249#Comment_118800249

The ironic thing is that that Friends is an example of what I was saying earlier about society. Wasn't your man the nerd who was besotted with the good looking girl who after years and years turned around and hooked up with him 😂 . I mean it's not impossible but it's not really realistic. You man just kept being the same nerd and eventually his love story came true.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800284#Comment_118800284

Fix him up with some of your own female friends.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118800288#Comment_118800288

He doesn't fancy any of them. I hate being matchmaker anyway...he will find someone..covid is half the issue..he is way more social than me

Most people are just normal people, and they don't play games. Silly thread.

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118798428#Comment_118798428

not quite ..we all know they could find sex they are involuntarily single maybe? But to be honest its more like ..some women find it hard to fall in love...and won't settle for anything less than ...real love.

ILoveYourVibes

I think when you start to empathize with these men and understand them you get further.

Its not ok to have bi polar disorder or depression or other mental illnesses as a man ...and i would wager a lot of these unhappy men have something like that ..something that holds them back in life or a hard childhood and help isn't offered to work through their issues.

They find another way of channelling the anger. This is it.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118799513#Comment_118799513

I don't think it was. Not to speak for someone else but piping was just saying that his post was nothing to do with your post (but I suspect your post was brought up in an attempt to confuse).

The first part of the quoted post was referring to his own post. The second part was paraphrasing mine.