"Nice Guys"

Liberty_Bear · 12-03-2022 05:15PM #1

Ive read a few threads over the last few weeks from lads with a sense of entitlement that as they are 'nice guys' they are of the opinion that women should be flinging themselves at them. Quite a worrisome , if I was a woman looking at these blokes ,I'd be avoiding them like the plague...

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-44053828

These overall themes of failure and frustration - along with anger and hate - are common on incel forums. I spoke to several young men who call themselves incel. They're in their teens or early 20s and many have experienced rejection or negative encounters with women.

These men are the type who harbour misogyny and can be the type seen to legitimately to be a threat to women...

Some men try to escape but alas appear incapable...https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/14/plymouth-gunman-ranted-online-that-women-are-arrogant-days-before-rampage

growleaves · 12-03-2022 05:39PM

Personal problems and self-pity should not form the basis for sexual politics of any kind.

That said, the whole 'incel' thing is way overblown by media coverage. A tiny micro-community of alienated men put under media magnification and built up into this huge thing.

Occasionally a crazy person will get violent but that happens anyway.

FintanMcluskey · 12-03-2022 05:46PM

Personally I find being labelled a Chad offensive.

Liberty_Bear · 12-03-2022 05:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774039#Comment_118774039

I had to google that

12-03-2022 06:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058237051/nice-guys

They're in their teens or early 20s and many have experienced rejection or negative encounters with women.

Ever notice how there's never any real interest in finding out the range of negative experiences these guys had with women, and whether it might be worth tackling such behaviour in society? Instead, the automatic assumption is that these guys anger, bitterness, or frustration is unreasonable and dangerous.

I know a few mature guys (divorced, and bitter about it) who associate with the Incel movement, and they're far closer to the MGTOW crowd (although they often are lumped together regardless of the differences). Still angry/bitter but more interested in staying away from women for any kind of romantic relationship. Not dangerous, but still seen as some kind of threat, because they rant together on private forums.

The funny thing is that there have been support groups for women both online/offline for them to complain about men (spend some time browsing some feminist forums and you'll often find extreme/violent opinions), but no suggestion that they'd be held collectively responsible if a few associated crackpots acted out.

Liberty_Bear · 12-03-2022 06:37PM

Humanity is shaped by their experiences. These men when they encounter so many women and they have the same issue every time indicates to me that they are the originator of the problem. The forums that you speak of (Mumsnet comes to mind) are filled with women whom have had creepy experiences with these men. I had a work colleague who got harangued by one of these 'nice guys' until a few of us took him aside one night and explained if he persisted he wont be found as nice. These lads, incels, are the pits of humanity. Pyschologically bouncing back from rejection involves moving on to the next person and not losing a sense of perspective of the bigger picture. When they get rejected so many times its them that are at fault - a repeated pattern of behaviour does this to them. They dwell on it and dont process it.

bnt · 12-03-2022 08:10PM

So ... what should be done? This thread, like every discussion on the topic, is quick to blame the men involved as being at fault. Which may be true, but that doesn't offer any kind of way forward for them. Is there any kind of practical help - more than just "don't be incel" - or would you prefer it if all such men just disappeared?

12-03-2022 08:12PM

Today's male scaremongering thread is sponsored by...

12-03-2022 08:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774444#Comment_118774444

I really do love the spin applied. Oh, no, all the forums involving women have legitimate concerns, but the male ones are creepy and dangerous. No allowance for the idea that these men might have legitimate grievances towards the women they've encountered..

The forums I referred to were feminist forums I browsed years ago, who considered men to be scum, and said horrible things about the men in their lives. No different from the Incel forums. A mix of sane and utterly deranged people.

As for "these guys" not processing it, are you aware of the range of conflicting signals/messages within society towards dating and relationships? And yet, men are supposed to just know automatically how to behave in the best way possible (which is different for every woman, and often changes depending on their moods). Most men deal with these confusion/hurt, and simply move on, accepting that it's part of living in society, but I guess Incels can't do the same. Honestly, I do wonder whether they might be right to bring attention to the negative parts of dating/relationships in society from a male pov. I don't have much patience with the anger/bitterness contained within many of their opinions, but I can appreciate the pain involved.

These lads are not "the pits of humanity". They're not psychos, rapists or murderers. They're simply guys who are confused by society, or who have been hurt badly by the behaviour other people. Some of them are likely to be complete nutjobs, but the majority won't be. A bit of attention towards their issues might, actually, be a good thing.

Liberty_Bear · 13-03-2022 01:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118775413#Comment_118775413

The realistic expectation is that they go "I like you, do you want to pursue more", if the answer is no then move on, if its yes then date until fall in love or move in whatever. The need to attend to every mans hurt because he has been rejected is not normal unless there is severe distress. If a person plays games, then walk away. Simple as.

fryup · 13-03-2022 01:44AM

some guys are just too nervous amongst women.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGilFOKN5lw

13-03-2022 12:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776785#Comment_118776785

Um, that might be your personality, in that you would accept guys doing that,, but honestly, it doesn't relate to any experience I have had with women (except in nightclubs or places specifically geared towards hookups). Games are common. Leading someone on is common. Miscommunication of interest/intent is common. Keeping someone hanging as a "possible" is common. I'm not bothered by it, because it is what it is, and there's little interest in changing it.

It gets better as one ages. There's far less bs involved in dating at 40 than there is at 20, probably because people know what they want in a partner.. but at 20, it's only on the rarest of occasions that encounters are that simple.

Liberty_Bear · 13-03-2022 01:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777839#Comment_118777839

These are not matters specific to just straight men, anyones experience of dating is the exact same regardless of colour, creed or gender. We all have to make the mistakes in the first place to learn from them. Its unusual that people would seek to protect men from this, once bitten twice as shy. Can I say though that if a woman does play games then just walk away from it. The more men that do then the less likely women are to play them. You are the same as me, people do it and you are not bothered, you just shrug your shoulders and go 'meh, she was a viper' and stroll away into the sunset with your head held high as you chose not to engage in game playing.

13-03-2022 01:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778155#Comment_118778155

These are not matters specific to just straight men,

I didn't suggest that they were. I really have no idea why you decided to introduce that, considering the discussion at hand. All the same, I have dated both men and women, having had long term relationships or hookups with both.

Can I say though that if a woman does play games then just walk away from it. The more men that do then the less likely women are to play them.

Most people operate under a scarcity mentality. With smaller populations, and the limited exposure we have to others, it can be difficult to find people that we're attracted to. Walking away is always an option, but the truth is that most people will want to try, and try again when they encounter someone they like, simply because they're aware that it might be months before they meet someone else who peaks their interest.

I assume we're talking dating and relationships, and not the rather shallow ons scene?

You are the same as me, people do it and you are not bothered, you just shrug your shoulders and go 'meh, she was a viper' and stroll away into the sunset with your head held high as you chose not to engage in game playing.

Oh, I'm definitely bothered by it. Often, a lot of time and feelings are invested in someone before you realise that they're not interested, or that they're playing some kind of game. It's not as simple as determining initial attraction. Just as my own feelings of being hurt/betrayed/etc aren't so simple, and easily dismissed. The difference between me and the incels, is that I've lived in locations with large populations, and understand that there are alternatives.. I don't play "the game", simply because I'm not limited to a particular location, and so, can avail of better options elsewhere. I'm also far more comfortable with being single than most other people I know, who yearn for a serious relationship. Whereas for friends of mine who do live in towns or such, their choices are far more limited, and so, the opportunities presented are far more important, because each failure is relevant.

The point remains though, is that interactions between people are rarely so simple as you want to suggest. Its not as easy as saying "take it or leave it".

No offense intended by this part, but I suspect this is because you're female... the onus is on men (most of the time) to initiate and pursue an interest, with the female deciding whether to accept the attention, and being able to judge the manner of that interest. There's a very different dynamic involved between being the initiator vs the receiver. Sure, most women will have initiated in a limited way a few times, but most of their experiences are related to dealing with the interest of others, rather than initiating the proceedings themselves, start to finish. I've heard similar things from male friends of mine who are extremely attractive, and never have to "chase" women, because they're attractive enough to demand attention.

completedit · 13-03-2022 01:47PM

2012 called it wants its trope back.

The whole Reddit nice guy thing is such bullshit. We're all just using strategies that we can; we do what we feel is the right thing to do. So much of the popular culture that men in my demographic grew up with focuses on the type of traits that a desirable attractive man should have(holds door open, respectful to his mother, kind and empathetic) and that is why people end up with this resentment because they think to themselves, I am a good guy, I have these traits, am a considerate person yet the girl I like is attracted and falls for the prick who cheated on the other girl he was with. Over time this turns into spitefulness and anger. We need better lessons to young men. Culture fails us. We should be teaching them that strength and confidence and ability MATTERS, not some idea that if you're a soft doormat the girl of your dreams will take a shine to you. The problem is that attraction isn't fair, you have to compete to be attractive; just being nice will never be enough. It's unfortunate because some people are just like this by nature but society and female biology doesn't reward this. It's ambivalent to it overall. It's just how it is.

Ultimately it comes down to expectations vs reality and watching other people with certain traits(brashness, peacocking confidence and other traits associated with raw masculinity) be successful. Inside every incel is just someone who wants connection and to feel wanted.

Jequ0n · 13-03-2022 03:02PM

Personally I’d stay clear of anyone who feels the need to describe themselves as “nice”.

There have always been plenty of people who can’t compete and who will be cast aside, though the internet has probably exacerbated this.

I don’t see them as any more annoying than other groups who whinge about the evils of the world.

Sephiroth_dude · 13-03-2022 03:18PM

https://youtu.be/1nDq1HoNm-E

Ekerot · 13-03-2022 09:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778796#Comment_118778796

We late 90's Pop Punk now?

Liberty_Bear · 13-03-2022 09:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780628#Comment_118780628

It never died out tbh...

Hangdogroad · 14-03-2022 10:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774039#Comment_118774039

Its a stupid name, up there with Tristan and Jeremy.

Ubbquittious · 14-03-2022 10:51AM

Most people are nice. It isn't particularly hard to be nice when everything is going your way. The trick is staying nice when faced with a long string sh1t situations. Sure some people are just miserable the whole time but those are in the minority and tend to be social outkasts.

Grab All Association · 14-03-2022 11:03AM

What a ridiculous term I’ve seen popping up on social networks. Nobody is involuntary celibate. Prostitution is widespread throughout the world. I bet you can get a prostitute in the Vatican City. Seen a video recently of the police arresting a woman in the U.K. for giving a man a BJ for £5 ffs

Even if you had the tiniest of mickeys you’d still have foreplay and tongue to lick pussy and play around with.

Nobody has to be celibate.

maybe these people should be called Par-cels

Parsimonious celibate

JimmyVik · 14-03-2022 11:20AM

I dont understand this whole nice guy bad guy thing. guys should just be themselves.

I found it difficult getting a date all through uni (I got some, but i wasnt getting the ride more than once every 2 months and relationships didnt last long), until I finally found out what really matters. Money.

As soon as I got a good job, a nice car and expensive clothes I got so many rides I lost count.

Much easier picking up a woman if you flash the cash or ask her out to a restaurant, then quickly move on to going to hotels.

When you dont have the money to be able to do that the pickings get far slimmer. Of course all women say they arent interested in money, but they certainly arent interested in poverty :)

One funny example ive seen is one of the guys I went to school with. Total nerd, still is. The girls treated him like sh!t. Now he is rich and running a successful IT company. Did very well for himself. One of the girls we went to school with who got divorced a few years ago was all over him a couple of Christmases ago. She plagued him with texts all the time. Nearly like a stalker.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-03-2022 11:24AM

This is the problem: women don't actually want nice guys. Not as partners, anyway. Being "nice" is the quickest way into the friend zone.

14-03-2022 11:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

I dont understand this whole nice guy bad guy thing. guys should just be themselves.

I think most guys are (themselves). The nice guy thing is just a category with an "easy" and inaccurate stereotype to promote about generalised manners of behaviour. Little different from talking about women who are "princesses", or those with daddy issues, but extending it to a larger section of the gender involved.

Liberty_Bear · 15-03-2022 12:10AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782471#Comment_118782471

Nah mate, we cant write these lads off who tend to be like Anders Brevik. They are the ones who we usually block on facebook and wonder why all their mates score and they dont. Have a read of his manifesto on women.

Packrat · 15-03-2022 12:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

Nope, whilst theres a grain of truth in what youre saying, I don't accept that in its entirety.

I think you're wrongly interpreting what happened in your own particular case.

Did it ever occur to you that as you got a good job, nice car etc, that your own self worth and confidence increased, therefore making you more attractive?

Yes, amassing wealth/power/resources is highly attractive to a potential female mate, but on its own it's not enough.

An ugly mofo with a stack of cash will attract *some* "in demand" women, but still repel most.

A fairly handsome fella with little self esteem and confidence will still under-perform unless he gets his own head right.

The fact that you were scoring somewhat regularly enough in uni tells us that you're not a total munter.

What prevented you from being a total ledgend wasn't money, it was confidence.

What gave you the swagger was the money.

I've seen myself have vastly different scoring ratios depending on how well I felt I was getting on in my own life at a particular time, not always, but often related to my financial success at that time.

For a lot of males, particularly in their late 20s and 30s confidence is tied to financial success relative to our peers.

Also, the sphere in which you meet prospective partners and your place within the social hierarchy of that sphere makes a massive difference to your attractiveness.

In short - it's very very complex and money is only one way to increase your attractiveness, there are others which will work as well or better in certain circumstances.

Liberty_Bear · 15-03-2022 12:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778330#Comment_118778330

Peacocking is part of that whole Neil Strauss book on Pick Up Artistry or manipulating women into sleeping with you by exploiting their insecurities. Ive no doubt women do the same thing as well. Peacocking we can see a mile off in the background, this Alpha male nonsense is so into over drive that blokes trip themselves up. Inside every Incel is also a seething ball of anger who if he parks the anger would probably do very well for themselves