"Nice Guys"

Liberty_Bear

Ive read a few threads over the last few weeks from lads with a sense of entitlement that as they are 'nice guys' they are of the opinion that women should be flinging themselves at them. Quite a worrisome , if I was a woman looking at these blokes ,I'd be avoiding them like the plague...

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-44053828

These overall themes of failure and frustration - along with anger and hate - are common on incel forums. I spoke to several young men who call themselves incel. They're in their teens or early 20s and many have experienced rejection or negative encounters with women.

These men are the type who harbour misogyny and can be the type seen to legitimately to be a threat to women...

Some men try to escape but alas appear incapable...https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/14/plymouth-gunman-ranted-online-that-women-are-arrogant-days-before-rampage

growleaves

Personal problems and self-pity should not form the basis for sexual politics of any kind.

That said, the whole 'incel' thing is way overblown by media coverage. A tiny micro-community of alienated men put under media magnification and built up into this huge thing.

Occasionally a crazy person will get violent but that happens anyway.

FintanMcluskey

Personally I find being labelled a Chad offensive.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774039#Comment_118774039

I had to google that

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058237051/nice-guys

 They're in their teens or early 20s and many have experienced rejection or negative encounters with women.

Ever notice how there's never any real interest in finding out the range of negative experiences these guys had with women, and whether it might be worth tackling such behaviour in society? Instead, the automatic assumption is that these guys anger, bitterness, or frustration is unreasonable and dangerous.

I know a few mature guys (divorced, and bitter about it) who associate with the Incel movement, and they're far closer to the MGTOW crowd (although they often are lumped together regardless of the differences). Still angry/bitter but more interested in staying away from women for any kind of romantic relationship. Not dangerous, but still seen as some kind of threat, because they rant together on private forums.

The funny thing is that there have been support groups for women both online/offline for them to complain about men (spend some time browsing some feminist forums and you'll often find extreme/violent opinions), but no suggestion that they'd be held collectively responsible if a few associated crackpots acted out.

Liberty_Bear

Humanity is shaped by their experiences. These men when they encounter so many women and they have the same issue every time indicates to me that they are the originator of the problem. The forums that you speak of (Mumsnet comes to mind) are filled with women whom have had creepy experiences with these men. I had a work colleague who got harangued by one of these 'nice guys' until a few of us took him aside one night and explained if he persisted he wont be found as nice. These lads, incels, are the pits of humanity. Pyschologically bouncing back from rejection involves moving on to the next person and not losing a sense of perspective of the bigger picture. When they get rejected so many times its them that are at fault - a repeated pattern of behaviour does this to them. They dwell on it and dont process it.

bnt

So ... what should be done? This thread, like every discussion on the topic, is quick to blame the men involved as being at fault. Which may be true, but that doesn't offer any kind of way forward for them. Is there any kind of practical help - more than just "don't be incel" - or would you prefer it if all such men just disappeared?

Today's male scaremongering thread is sponsored by...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774444#Comment_118774444

I really do love the spin applied. Oh, no, all the forums involving women have legitimate concerns, but the male ones are creepy and dangerous. No allowance for the idea that these men might have legitimate grievances towards the women they've encountered..

The forums I referred to were feminist forums I browsed years ago, who considered men to be scum, and said horrible things about the men in their lives. No different from the Incel forums. A mix of sane and utterly deranged people.

As for "these guys" not processing it, are you aware of the range of conflicting signals/messages within society towards dating and relationships? And yet, men are supposed to just know automatically how to behave in the best way possible (which is different for every woman, and often changes depending on their moods). Most men deal with these confusion/hurt, and simply move on, accepting that it's part of living in society, but I guess Incels can't do the same. Honestly, I do wonder whether they might be right to bring attention to the negative parts of dating/relationships in society from a male pov. I don't have much patience with the anger/bitterness contained within many of their opinions, but I can appreciate the pain involved.

These lads are not "the pits of humanity". They're not psychos, rapists or murderers. They're simply guys who are confused by society, or who have been hurt badly by the behaviour other people. Some of them are likely to be complete nutjobs, but the majority won't be. A bit of attention towards their issues might, actually, be a good thing.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118775413#Comment_118775413

The realistic expectation is that they go "I like you, do you want to pursue more", if the answer is no then move on, if its yes then date until fall in love or move in whatever. The need to attend to every mans hurt because he has been rejected is not normal unless there is severe distress. If a person plays games, then walk away. Simple as.

fryup

some guys are just too nervous amongst women.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGilFOKN5lw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118776785#Comment_118776785

Um, that might be your personality, in that you would accept guys doing that,, but honestly, it doesn't relate to any experience I have had with women (except in nightclubs or places specifically geared towards hookups). Games are common. Leading someone on is common. Miscommunication of interest/intent is common. Keeping someone hanging as a "possible" is common. I'm not bothered by it, because it is what it is, and there's little interest in changing it.

It gets better as one ages. There's far less bs involved in dating at 40 than there is at 20, probably because people know what they want in a partner.. but at 20, it's only on the rarest of occasions that encounters are that simple.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118777839#Comment_118777839

These are not matters specific to just straight men, anyones experience of dating is the exact same regardless of colour, creed or gender. We all have to make the mistakes in the first place to learn from them. Its unusual that people would seek to protect men from this, once bitten twice as shy. Can I say though that if a woman does play games then just walk away from it. The more men that do then the less likely women are to play them. You are the same as me, people do it and you are not bothered, you just shrug your shoulders and go 'meh, she was a viper' and stroll away into the sunset with your head held high as you chose not to engage in game playing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778155#Comment_118778155

These are not matters specific to just straight men,

I didn't suggest that they were. I really have no idea why you decided to introduce that, considering the discussion at hand. All the same, I have dated both men and women, having had long term relationships or hookups with both.

Can I say though that if a woman does play games then just walk away from it. The more men that do then the less likely women are to play them.

Most people operate under a scarcity mentality. With smaller populations, and the limited exposure we have to others, it can be difficult to find people that we're attracted to. Walking away is always an option, but the truth is that most people will want to try, and try again when they encounter someone they like, simply because they're aware that it might be months before they meet someone else who peaks their interest.

I assume we're talking dating and relationships, and not the rather shallow ons scene?

You are the same as me, people do it and you are not bothered, you just shrug your shoulders and go 'meh, she was a viper' and stroll away into the sunset with your head held high as you chose not to engage in game playing.

Oh, I'm definitely bothered by it. Often, a lot of time and feelings are invested in someone before you realise that they're not interested, or that they're playing some kind of game. It's not as simple as determining initial attraction. Just as my own feelings of being hurt/betrayed/etc aren't so simple, and easily dismissed. The difference between me and the incels, is that I've lived in locations with large populations, and understand that there are alternatives.. I don't play "the game", simply because I'm not limited to a particular location, and so, can avail of better options elsewhere. I'm also far more comfortable with being single than most other people I know, who yearn for a serious relationship. Whereas for friends of mine who do live in towns or such, their choices are far more limited, and so, the opportunities presented are far more important, because each failure is relevant.

The point remains though, is that interactions between people are rarely so simple as you want to suggest. Its not as easy as saying "take it or leave it".

No offense intended by this part, but I suspect this is because you're female... the onus is on men (most of the time) to initiate and pursue an interest, with the female deciding whether to accept the attention, and being able to judge the manner of that interest. There's a very different dynamic involved between being the initiator vs the receiver. Sure, most women will have initiated in a limited way a few times, but most of their experiences are related to dealing with the interest of others, rather than initiating the proceedings themselves, start to finish. I've heard similar things from male friends of mine who are extremely attractive, and never have to "chase" women, because they're attractive enough to demand attention.

completedit

2012 called it wants its trope back.

The whole Reddit nice guy thing is such bullshit. We're all just using strategies that we can; we do what we feel is the right thing to do. So much of the popular culture that men in my demographic grew up with focuses on the type of traits that a desirable attractive man should have(holds door open, respectful to his mother, kind and empathetic) and that is why people end up with this resentment because they think to themselves, I am a good guy, I have these traits, am a considerate person yet the girl I like is attracted and falls for the prick who cheated on the other girl he was with. Over time this turns into spitefulness and anger. We need better lessons to young men. Culture fails us. We should be teaching them that strength and confidence and ability MATTERS, not some idea that if you're a soft doormat the girl of your dreams will take a shine to you. The problem is that attraction isn't fair, you have to compete to be attractive; just being nice will never be enough. It's unfortunate because some people are just like this by nature but society and female biology doesn't reward this. It's ambivalent to it overall. It's just how it is.

Ultimately it comes down to expectations vs reality and watching other people with certain traits(brashness, peacocking confidence and other traits associated with raw masculinity) be successful. Inside every incel is just someone who wants connection and to feel wanted.

Jequ0n

Personally I’d stay clear of anyone who feels the need to describe themselves as “nice”.

There have always been plenty of people who can’t compete and who will be cast aside, though the internet has probably exacerbated this.

I don’t see them as any more annoying than other groups who whinge about the evils of the world.

Sephiroth_dude

https://youtu.be/1nDq1HoNm-E

Ekerot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778796#Comment_118778796

We late 90's Pop Punk now?

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118780628#Comment_118780628

It never died out tbh...

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118774039#Comment_118774039

Its a stupid name, up there with Tristan and Jeremy.

Ubbquittious

Most people are nice. It isn't particularly hard to be nice when everything is going your way. The trick is staying nice when faced with a long string sh1t situations. Sure some people are just miserable the whole time but those are in the minority and tend to be social outkasts.

Grab All Association

What a ridiculous term I’ve seen popping up on social networks. Nobody is involuntary celibate. Prostitution is widespread throughout the world. I bet you can get a prostitute in the Vatican City. Seen a video recently of the police arresting a woman in the U.K. for giving a man a BJ for £5 ffs

Even if you had the tiniest of mickeys you’d still have foreplay and tongue to lick pussy and play around with.

Nobody has to be celibate.

maybe these people should be called Par-cels

Parsimonious celibate

JimmyVik

I dont understand this whole nice guy bad guy thing. guys should just be themselves.

I found it difficult getting a date all through uni (I got some, but i wasnt getting the ride more than once every 2 months and relationships didnt last long), until I finally found out what really matters. Money.

As soon as I got a good job, a nice car and expensive clothes I got so many rides I lost count.

Much easier picking up a woman if you flash the cash or ask her out to a restaurant, then quickly move on to going to hotels.

When you dont have the money to be able to do that the pickings get far slimmer. Of course all women say they arent interested in money, but they certainly arent interested in poverty :)

One funny example ive seen is one of the guys I went to school with. Total nerd, still is. The girls treated him like sh!t. Now he is rich and running a successful IT company. Did very well for himself. One of the girls we went to school with who got divorced a few years ago was all over him a couple of Christmases ago. She plagued him with texts all the time. Nearly like a stalker.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

This is the problem: women don't actually want nice guys. Not as partners, anyway. Being "nice" is the quickest way into the friend zone.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

I dont understand this whole nice guy bad guy thing. guys should just be themselves.

I think most guys are (themselves). The nice guy thing is just a category with an "easy" and inaccurate stereotype to promote about generalised manners of behaviour. Little different from talking about women who are "princesses", or those with daddy issues, but extending it to a larger section of the gender involved.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782471#Comment_118782471

Nah mate, we cant write these lads off who tend to be like Anders Brevik. They are the ones who we usually block on facebook and wonder why all their mates score and they dont. Have a read of his manifesto on women.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

Nope, whilst theres a grain of truth in what youre saying, I don't accept that in its entirety.

I think you're wrongly interpreting what happened in your own particular case.

Did it ever occur to you that as you got a good job, nice car etc, that your own self worth and confidence increased, therefore making you more attractive?

Yes, amassing wealth/power/resources is highly attractive to a potential female mate, but on its own it's not enough.

An ugly mofo with a stack of cash will attract *some* "in demand" women, but still repel most.

A fairly handsome fella with little self esteem and confidence will still under-perform unless he gets his own head right.

The fact that you were scoring somewhat regularly enough in uni tells us that you're not a total munter.

What prevented you from being a total ledgend wasn't money, it was confidence.

What gave you the swagger was the money.

I've seen myself have vastly different scoring ratios depending on how well I felt I was getting on in my own life at a particular time, not always, but often related to my financial success at that time.

For a lot of males, particularly in their late 20s and 30s confidence is tied to financial success relative to our peers.

Also, the sphere in which you meet prospective partners and your place within the social hierarchy of that sphere makes a massive difference to your attractiveness.

In short - it's very very complex and money is only one way to increase your attractiveness, there are others which will work as well or better in certain circumstances.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118778330#Comment_118778330

Peacocking is part of that whole Neil Strauss book on Pick Up Artistry or manipulating women into sleeping with you by exploiting their insecurities. Ive no doubt women do the same thing as well. Peacocking we can see a mile off in the background, this Alpha male nonsense is so into over drive that blokes trip themselves up. Inside every Incel is also a seething ball of anger who if he parks the anger would probably do very well for themselves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786261#Comment_118786261

That is the most horseshit post I've ever read. If you really believe that nonsense then you have no clue son.

Packrat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786305#Comment_118786305

I ain't your son.. more like your father.

Actually, - scratch that, none of mine are that stupid.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

Y see uu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782396#Comment_118782396

You and he are welcome to thosr sort of women

This site is some crock of ****.some ad for the company that made it it

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782418#Comment_118782418

Therein lies the rub though. Society spends years telling them that that isn't the case. It just takes some of them a lot longer to figure it out. Of course they have to take responsibility themselves but they are fed that line for a long time.

The other side of the same coin is men who go overboard in treating women like sh1t. "Society" is blamed for that. It is equally to blame for these incel weirdos.

sonic85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782418#Comment_118782418

OK grand - they don't want nice guys. So what do they want? Deep down every woman wants a man that treats them like sh!te? Anyone I know who's in a relationship or married are with good solid decent lads - are they **** behind closed doors? Think your statement might be a sweeping generalisation TBH but anyway.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786632#Comment_118786632

The mistake you're making there is in thinking that every man has to be either one or the other.

I guess a large issue is what any particular person means by nice. There is a world of difference between the nice person who genuinely cares about other people and has an "all boats can rise with the same tide" attitude towards people and life - and the fawning agenda driven cretin who is forcing niceness out like a sticky nectar that gives you the same feeling you'd get from a car salesman or door to door insurance peddler. The worm tongue character from Lord of the Rings instantly jumps to mind.

I am sure there are many people in the latter category who have convinced themselves they are "nice" and can not for the life of them figure out why they are repellent to people - let alone sexually and romantically failing. Newsflash to those people though - they are not being nice - they are sucking up. In a sickly creepy way. And then they lament "Ah well women must just not want nice guys". It's not women that are the issue there. It's a complete lack of self awareness in play.

That said though - it seems this is another thread where people try to distill interpersonal romantic and sexual relationships down to simplistic one liner rules as if they have found "the secret". One user who consistently posts on these threads for example has in the past decided that he is doomed with women simply because he is not tall enough and never will be. And of course there is always at least one who essentially says "forget everything else, it's just money or resources".

Packrat probably has it closer to the truth though. Especially as the one rebuttal he got was a post that did not deal with anything he actually said but just threw out language like "horsesht" and "son" before running away. You'd think if he was so wrong someone would actually be able to directly rebut something he said.

But yes often we can be blind to attributes and behaviors in ourselves that others can see. And they can change in correlation with some other "X" factor in such a way that we think "X" must be the explanation. Money in an earlier post is a good example. Quite a lot can change about us when we get money. We can feel more confident. We can dress better. We can relax more. We can go out more. We can look after ourselves more. We can eat better. We can change much of the focus of our lives. And a new job or career situation can also suddenly change our social circle so we are also suddenly exposed to a new set of people and potential partners than the ones we had stagnated with before. And so on and so on.

And when suddenly the gender we are romantically interested in start reciprocating that interest we can think "Ah it must be just because I have money now! Gah women are all just after money". They do not see in themselves the many changes that correlated with this change in financial situation that all lend themselves to attractiveness. They just see it in simplistic terms like "More money more girls".

What these people seemingly fail to notice too - whether it is because they think they have no money or they are not tall enough or whatever - is the sheer volume in 1000s or even 100s of 1000s of people who are short or have little money who are pairing off all the time and getting married or having sex or whatever. Simply does not enter their consciousness that if their simplistic factor of choice were actually a thing - to ask why any number of people with/without that factor are doing just fine. Often they just dismiss it as "Ah sure they must have just got desperate and settled for whatever they could get". What? All of them, everywhere?

Take me for example - I am far from tall. I am also very far from a high earner having spent over 15 years now turning down promotions and raises because I do not want to change my work/life balance. I however seem to be doing quite well for myself relationship wise. To the point quite a few people have expressed just how jealous they are or how I have ended up with girls so far out of my "league" (another nonsense term I have little time for).

However did I manage it without any/many of these attributes that are allegedly essential? It's not a massive willy either I can assure you :-p

My only "advice" really is if you are having an issue in romance or attracting others - is to go out trying to meet and attract while bringing people with you who know you and you trust to be honest with you. See if they can see something in your "game" that you can not see yourself.

The best example of this from my own life is a friend of ours who was forever single. He could not understand it. And he was such a lovely guy in many ways - and doing fairly well financially and physically and so on - that to be honest we could not understand it either.

Eventually when he requested it of me I decided to step in and help him out. So I took him speed dating to observe. And I saw straight away what the issues were. The way he acted (or in some cases did not act) in a situation with women he was hoping to attract was pretty bad. He got zero engagement or results from the speed dating. But he himself was oblivious to the things that stood out very obviously to me the observer and almost literally painful to watch.

So I worked on a load of things with him and took him speed dating again and the result was almost completely reversed. Lots of engagement and results. And he is to this day still in a relationship that came of that speed dating. A relationship he ended up in after thinking about it and choosing - because he now actively had 3/4 girls interested in him and he had to choose himself which one to go with and which to let go.

And it was not any of this slimey PUA manipulative nonsense crap I had to teach him either. But things about himself he was oblivious to and was actually shocked by when the obvious was pointed out.

We humans can often miss even the most obvious things about ourselves sometimes.

The J Stands for Jay

Here's something that could even generate sympathy for incels, it's that bad: https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/

sonic85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786675#Comment_118786675

Hold on - where did I say that? People in general have good sides and bad sides - there's no such thing as a 100% nice guy or a 100% c u next Tuesday. But there are degrees. So again - why do they not want a lad that's predominantly nice?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786773#Comment_118786773

Well, you just posted that if men aren't nice, then they must be shites, no? If not, what was the point of your post?

And again, there's a difference between "nice" and "predominantly nice".

The problem with "nice" (and this is women as well as men) is that they tend to be a passive and that gets boring after a while. You want a bit of daring at some point and that usually involves being "not nice" for a while - it can be daring or adventurous, even a bit wreckless.

"Not nice" is not an antonym for "****" or evil.

Liberty_Bear

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786684#Comment_118786684

Nail on head and some food for thought

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786707#Comment_118786707

I came across that a while back, jaysus talk about an echo chamber, a loony one at that! But at the same time let them do them.

sonic85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786875#Comment_118786875

Ah leave it so will ya - you're moving the goalposts now. I've just said there's not one person on the planet that's just nice or is just a complete wanker - I thought that would be implicit really when someone says nice.

And there's no difference between nice and predominantly nice - it's the same thing. I'd consider myself nice - but I'm a cock at times. I'm human after all.

It's good to see you can speak for every woman on the planet - can you read minds? "You" find nice to be boring - that doesn't mean that everyone does?

You want daring adventurous or wreckless - in what way? Spontaneous holiday? Go skydiving? You go on to say not nice is not an antonym for being a c u n t but then what does being not nice mean - break it down for me

Feisar

Can we get a definition of this "nice" please? Do they give half their income to charity or spend their spare time helping the homeless?

It's right up there with harmless as a word I wouldn't want a woman to describe me as.

sonic85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786956#Comment_118786956

This is exactly what I'm looking for TBH but nobody can seem to provide a cast iron definition

Vicxas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786707#Comment_118786707

FDS is a cesspit, where "entitled" women shout into an echo chamber that men should only approach them if they're millionaires and dont have a spine or do anything except fawn over them.

Ave Sodalis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118782418#Comment_118782418

The friend zone is a ridiculous concept dreamt up by people who just can't get over the fact that someone isn't sexually attracted to them...

Tax hit the nail on the head. There is a very obvious difference between "nice guy" and a nice guy. A nice guy does nice things because he genuinely wants to do nice things. There is no expectation from it, and it applies to everyone regardless of their age or gender. A nice person will pick something up that you dropped, simply because they want to help out. They'll help carry something just because you need help carrying something. A nice guy will buy flowers just because they thought you might like the flowers, or not buy you flowers because you don't particularly like flowers.

A "nice guy", however, does things purely with the expectation of getting something out of it. He'll pick something up that you dropped because that's another mark to use in his reasoning of why you should have sex with him. He'll help carry something either for you or for someone in your vicinity just to prove how nice he is, but wouldn't usually do it. He'll buy flowers because then you owe him something, and usually doesn't give a damn whether or not they're something you actually like. He's nice, but only to the people he's interested in and only because he thinks there's something in it for him.

The thing is, women can generally sniff out the difference very quickly. People who feel the need to tell people they're nice are almost certainly the latter. People who seem to think they're in the friend zone are almost certainly the latter. People who obsess over all women collectively liking a certain trait is the latter. They're really not that hard to spot and therefore avoid.

sonic85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786956#Comment_118786956

And also why would you not want to be considered nice? What's wrong with that exactly? One of the most harmless lads I know is married with twins on the way so it didn't work out too badly for him! He is a farmer though so maybe it was the road frontage that sealed the deal!

JimmyVik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787093#Comment_118787093

When I was a young buck it was the lads who had their parents cars that got the girls. One lad with a motorbike when he was 17 was swimming in them. All he had to do was come stand outside the shop beside the bike and within 10 minutes he would be off on a score with some young wan. When they heard he had arrived at the shop they would all arrive within minutes.

The hierarchy was something like this.

Really good looking guy - Always at the top, car or no car.

Average looking guys did ok but it went like this.

1 - Has his own car

2 - Has a job - or a parent with a farm :)

3 - Has access to a car

4 - You get the dregs

Not so good looking guys could score higher than an average looking guy if he had a car or access to a car, otherwise bottom of the heap.

Then when you get into your 20s it was all about the kind of car you had and the money you made. Simple having a car was not enough anymore to get you up the ranks.

Myself and my brother used to always be moaning about how we needed to get motorbikes :) But then my granny would say - Dont be worrying about those guys. There a match for every old sock in a drawer somewhere. Basically saying, everyone will couple up with someone eventually.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787091#Comment_118787091

In relation to your second last paragraph, I think the issue with doing those things is that they don't work for those people. So they can hardly realistically keep thinking for ever they might. On the other hand, they are also the things that society "tells" them they should do. The weirdos obviously can't understand the nuance. Maybe society should teach them when they are still young - "listen, you should behave towards people generally, but if you act like this then don't expect to get any results". And I mean "expect" in two interpretations there.

It's like the reverse job interview - to get your foot in the door you might have to pretend to be a decent person and then to stay there and crawl your way up the chain you have to be a bit of a prick. You wanna get the girl - then you have to act like a bit of a prick to get your foot in the door and then you have to be a bit nicer as time passes to get "promoted" and stay in the job.

The issue with all these things is that they are wholly subjective and those fellas don't understand that and feel bitter and lied to. They think that they were taught a formula and rules but the formula doesn't work.

They should be taught that a partner might say that they want "x". It doesn't mean they just want "x". It means they want person "Y" and for "Y" to do "x" for them. The girl who is complaining that her boyfriend doesn't do "x" doesn't mean that they just want someone else who does "z" instead

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118786948#Comment_118786948

Actually, you positioned the goalposts with your first reply and you're now claiming the exact opposite of what you claimed in said post.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118787091#Comment_118787091

The thing about the friend zone is that people wind up there not because the women isn't attracted, it's because they don't make a move early enough and by the time they do it's too late. It's not the same thing as making a move, getting rejected, accepting it and still maintaining a platonic friendship.

The rest of your post Id agree with. It's pretty much what I've been saying (although yours is a bit clearer).

El Gato De Negocios

I watched a documentary recently called TFW NGF (That Feel When No Girlfriend) and that related to the incel subculture. It had a number of interviews, filmed over a couple of years with guys that were / are considered to be incel. The similarities across them was startling. All were US based, all came from broken homes or bad home lives, all had little education beyond high school, all of them echoed that they considered themselves socially awkward with no real friends and they found a community on various fora such as 4chan with young men in similar situations to themselves. Its quite sad to think that there is a generation of men being left behind but the hardcore radical incel elements that preach misogyny are obviously crackpots. I do think though that alot of them, like most of us, just want to belong and feel like they are a part of something and online communities is the easiest thing to get involved in. Id recommend checking the documentary out if you can. Fascinating watch.