Is it time to join Nato

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911112#Comment_121911112

It could be just as easily argued that Ireland does have the target right now as we have basically no military and or intelligence capability that is any way remotely effective so we are the weak link in the west to target to test western resolve in general.

highpitcheric

No. EU will help us if need be.

10s of EU billions and countless EU members hardware went to Ukraine. Theyre not even in the EU.

We're part of the EU and its economy. Its in EUs own interests to help us.

Lets see if France will send troops to non-member Ukraine.

If they do then all debate is over. France or another EU member will certainly send personnel to an EU member if theyll go to a non-members land.

And we have 8000 personnel. So can we stop this exaggeration of no defense whatsoever.

(Ok, Naval aside, its more understandable in that case).

Also we dont have to rely on the UK, but even if we are invaded or whatever, and subsequently defeated despite EU efforts, then no doubt the UK isnt staying uninvolved at that point. Since at that point we're novo-Irlanski and a threat vector to them.

We're really not that good prospect for successful invasion, except maybe by US or UK.

lumphammer2

Each and every country being coerced into the arms dealers' game .... we need to break that cycle .... NATO are far from being the 'good guys' .... what is going on in Gaza is supported by NATO aka the West .... the Iraq war was enforced by NATO's main 2 countries .... they have no right to think they are any better than Russia ....

Ireland should not join NATO or the Russian equivalent either .... stay out of this .... stay neutral .... we avoided WW2 and so far spent near 70 years outside of the US v Russia cold war and we will keep it that way ....

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910933#Comment_121910933

That's the effing point!

We would no longer be a neutral country. We would stop being the biggest cowards in Europe.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121910982#Comment_121910982

But we're not an ally, we're neutral, remember 🙄

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911112#Comment_121911112

Shannon Airport gets shag all civil use but would be a valuable military asset.

We are already a target for hostile states, ask anyone impacted by the Russian state-sponsored HSE hack.

Russkies regard us as NATO-aligned anyway so we might as well sign up and get the benefits of actual membership.

The Russian embassy here is incredibly large for the size of our country, it's clearly a spy base to attack the UK and the common travel area makes it exremely easy to infiltrate illegals into the UK.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911225#Comment_121911225

Da, comrade.

Modulok

I do not believe Ireland should join NATO. I see no reason why the security of Estonia or Ukraine for that matter should have any relevance for Ireland.

This is one reason why NATO is over-wieldy as is. Too many members, with two many different different red lines. A security red line for Lithuania would not necessarily be a security red line for Portugal and is highly unlikely to be in fact.

Ireland can offer NATO nothing, and NATO can offer Ireland only increased entanglement and risk for no obvious gain.

All that said I believe Ireland should invest in boosting its own security very considerably, particularly the navy and air force.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911130#Comment_121911130

True. But joining NATO doesn't magically make an effective defensive military appear on the borders. That is still Irelands problem, not NATOs.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911246#Comment_121911246

What benefit of membership is there that Ireland doesn't already get? UK would leap to military defence as it would be a direct attack on them, other EU states and the US would be 5 minutes behind.

Maybe Luxembourg don't send their navy in Irelands defence if Ireland isn't a NATO member, but I don't think that will have any impact either way.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911488#Comment_121911488

So are you saying that because the probability of Ireland being attacked is slim to nil there is no reason to join NATO. Therefor by the same logic if you are of the opinion that you are such a safe driver the chances of you ever having a car crash are also slim to nil therefor what’s the point in taking out a car insurance. If you have a crash it will be the other drivers fault and you can claim on that drivers insurance

as an aside , if Ireland is attacked and ics not a NATO member we are by ourselves - have no car insurance equivalent to fall back on like we have in the car crash situation

Modulok

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911539#Comment_121911539

This seems a bad analogy to me. The only thing NATO membership ensures for Ireland is that we would be drawn into fighting when hostilities occur, which we could easily stay out of if we remained neutral. Defence policy is one area where we need to have a very insular and narrow focus on our own self-interests.

We need to build up our defensive capabilities principally in the areas of air, sea, and cyber defence.

And we need to build up our resilience -- this means preparedness to ramp up fuel, food and medical supplies and essential materials in the event of a prolonged continental or global war and the ensuing disruption, up to and including the nuking of several nearby countries and the prolonged chaos that would ensue from that.

We need to take advantage of our geography and keep out of wars that need not concern us, rather than stick our beaks in unnecessarily and fruitlessly. It was military alliance obligations and gung-ho attitudes that dragged Europe into war in 1914. We managed to keep our people from being forced into that one even though we were in the UK at the time; the next one should be no different.

Polar101

I mean, Ireland runs out of bread in a few hours when there's a bit of snow. By the time the EU or the mythical "someone" sends military help in time of crisis, it will be too late. Some basic resilience would be expected first.

Modulok

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911673#Comment_121911673

If you're responding to me, I am not referring to expecting help from anyone. I mean we need to be able to survive independently in the event that we have a repeat of the WWII Emergency - where we are neutral, but Britain and France etc. are at war or crippled for years after being nuked.

Right now I do not know if there is any real capacity for resilience in Ireland. Can we make our own fertilizer? How many seeds, and how much machines, spare parts, and fuel do we have to ensure effective sowing, growing, harvesting, and distribution of grain and other crops? Where do we stand with respect to medical supplies - can we manufacture things like penicillin, syringes, and anti-septics? How much electricity do we need to run essential services, and do we have enough fuel for this? If yes for how long? None of these things are clear.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911488#Comment_121911488

You're either neutral or you're not. If you're neutral, you need to defend yourself with your own defence forces (ie, the Swiss).

If you're not neutral, you join something like NATO for combined strength.

What we do as a nation is profess to be neutral so we can keep our 'moral superiority', but actually can't defend ourselves so rely on under the table pacts with NATO nations to defend us.

It's hypocritical and embarrassing.

scottser

It's only worth joining NATO if we make military tech that we can sell to finance our membership. It's a zero-sum game for us otherwise.

Having said that, the Russian and Russian aligned embassies here should be reduced to bare bones staff.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911539#Comment_121911539

That reads as if you think being part of NATO is a paid membership club.

There is nothing that Ireland would need to do to be eligible to join NATO, other than promising to try really hard to put 2% of their budget into "defence" spending. That defence spending doesn't have to be on anything in particular, or even bullets. Could just be on a new uniform, or to paint the barracks in gold leaf. Even then, it doesn't really make any difference if they do reach that spending target.

At the moment Ireland is hanging out and friendly with the NATO gang, just not wearing their gang colours. Putting on the gang colours just makes Ireland a soft target for a probing attack on NATOs response. If Luxembourg wasn't landlocked then they would be that soft target.

Joining NATO won't mean that Ireland gets a bunch of fast jets, or big boats patrolling the coast. And it also doesn't mean that Ireland has to buy them itself.

There isn't anything to be gained by joining NATO for Ireland, already will be defended by the UK if they ask and if a NATO member would still be the UK fulfilling that role. Ireland is likely more useful to NATO in it's current status as a nominally neutral country, rather than anything to be gained for NATO in merely painting a new bit of blue on their map.

ToweringPerformance

There is no need for us to join NATO. If an invasion ever happened (it won't) forget Europe the US with almost 80m people claiming Irish heritage would be stepping up to help us. It's never going to happen anyway the Russian navy is a joke and NATO would see them coming days before they got within a mile of our shores. The idea is ridiculous.

ToweringPerformance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911014#Comment_121911014

Eh the Ukraine (on Russia's border) and Israel (surrounded by hostile nations) is not an accurate comparison in fairness.

scottser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912539#Comment_121912539

We won't be invaded, we'll be nuked. Or tsunamid.

silverharp

At a minimum Ireland should have a ban on conscription in its Constitution, its one of the advantages of living here that the State cant make walk in front of machine guns

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912942#Comment_121912942

I am puzzled by your comment. Are you quite sure you wouldn't like to see this country be a bit more like Russia silverharp (at least for the plebs anyway)?

Would be a bit of a mindset change though I admit.

Building up to conscription (for those without the right background), we could have time in school for super Patriotic Irish History classes (all the times the Brits did us dirty, how we will make them pay some day...!) and some drone/weapons training for the kids.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911476#Comment_121911476

Absolutely we really need to get our act together in terms of developing a truly effective military and intelligence capability regardless of whether we do or do not join NATO.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911242#Comment_121911242

As well as been among the biggest spongers as we refuse to spend the money to have a competent defense and intelligence capability but expect others to do so and then cover us as well.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121911488#Comment_121911488

We need to stop being spongers. Joining NATO or not is one debate but we have an obligation to spend the money to develop an effective defense and intelligence capability regardless of NATO membership or not. We are a member of the collective that is the EU and benefit enormously from that membership. We need to stop being spongers when it comes to the defense and security side of things and do our part. We also very much believe in living in free, open and democratic societies so again we need to do our part to defend that especially in a world where there is a very real threat from the authoritarian repressive dictatorships such as Russia is.

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913557#Comment_121913557

I can't see it being in anyway feasible for Ireland to create a military force capable of defending in any way against a mildly competent force. But the only force which could conceivably mount an invasion of Ireland would be the UK anyway, as they are next door. Even France or Spain attempting to invade would be massively tricky. So why waste money on bigger guns?

Spend money on internal security forces yes, but no need to waste money on bigger things than that when there is no realistic invasion route without first going through the UK.

Spend money on internal security, anti terrorism, anti cyber attacks etc. Those are the relavent threats to Ireland.

If being in NATO helps with that then fine, but people have seem to be getting excited about the idea of joining NATO and then Ireland gets bigger guns, boats and planes. None of which are of any use... Well maybe some coast guard boats, but that's about it.

ToweringPerformance

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121912561#Comment_121912561

Nobody is using nukes ffs 🤣

You've been listening to Putin too much comrade.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913696#Comment_121913696

Well I guess we just differ in our opinion then on what Ireland can and should do in terms of its defense capabilities. Nobody is saying I don't think that we should be developing some big massive military force. We are indeed a small country but we can all the same develop a small but very competent and effective niche defense capability. Ireland physically been invaded is not a significant likely threat but the various infrastructure we have under the sea never mind the future wind farms off shore we have are threatened and we need to focus IMHO on developing a competent and effective navy, radar and air force capability. Plus of course we need to also seriously upgrade our intelligence capabilities also. As I said before whether we are in NATO or not is open to debate certainly but we need to stop being spongers and do our part in defense and intelligence security.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913230#Comment_121913230

I dont really see a serious question in there <confused emoji>

robinph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121913744#Comment_121913744

Agreed on the things you mention as the potential threats, attacks on infrastructure etc. Which would be having small and rapid forces to respond to terrorist type threats. Using terms like Navy, Air Force etc though conjures images of big grey boats with massive guns, and fast jets.

What is needed is coastal patrol boats, search and rescue helicopters, and intelligence gathering. Any attack on Irelands infrastructure from more than a terrorist group isn't going to happen, such as an actual other nations forces. Well, except for IT attacks, but I think Ireland is already in whatever EU/ NATO wide groups as far as that kind of threat goes, or someone else had posted a link to it several pages ago.