Is it time to join Nato

Run Forest Run

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773522#Comment_120773522

It's considered a very clear example of a NATO proxy war, by many experts who have likely forgotten more about geopolitics and international affairs than most of the armchair experts that populate forums such as this one know about the topic.

I'll go with their informed opinion and experience on this conflict, rather than the armchair generals...

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773711#Comment_120773711

They've definitely forgotten more alright, whoever these mythical "many experts" are.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773573#Comment_120773573

So you agreed with what I said on the last page when I qualified "fighting capacity" as "...we're not there to there to seek aggressive action on behalf of a particular side".

You did want to get into semantics, but mired the discussion down in semantics anyway.

This is like trying to have a discussion with ChatGPT.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774135#Comment_120774135

Yes, I agree that is your definition of the phrase and by that definition it is correct.

I don't think it is a good or accurate definition and I don't agree with it. Which was my point from the get go. For the record I said it was a semantics issue and you said it wasn't and that I was just incorrect based on your own definition.

Antipathetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773522#Comment_120773522

You are right NATO hasn't done a thing for Ukraine. There has definitely been no training of Ukrainian Armed Forces and all of that equipment supplied must be just Russian propaganda.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774308#Comment_120774308

None of this has been done under the auspices of NATO. Which would be entirely clear to anyone who has seen the haphazard nature of it.

This is akin to the Brexit referendum where people were fundamentally unable to differentiate EU competencies from member state competencies.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773097#Comment_120773097

You used the term mission yourself earlier though? I think you underplay what it can involve a bit there with the glorified police units. Sometimes the mandates have required a lot of force, soldiers, APCs, tanks etc. They (UN) also use "peace enforcement" as a term.

Anyways, I thought the UN was a biased tool of Western hegemony made defunct by the soon to be birthed Multipolar World (per the geopolitcs lectures you give on Russia/Ukraine threads, how UN votes, or reports etc. are meaningless and unrepresentative of "global" view of Ukraine war) yet now you get a bit misty eyed about Ireland taking part in UN "peace keeping missions"? Is there not a bit of insincerity there (edit: regarding the UN)?

Larbre34

NATO has been the ready made coordinating body for the Ukraine Defence Contact Group (aka The Ramstein Group for the name of the military base at which it meets). NATO stood this Group up within weeks and invited others, which totals 23 non members, including Ireland.

NATO planning and logistics elements have coordinated the availability of armaments and ammunition that can be sent from Alliance members, without weakening the Alliance as a whole.

NATO have secured the external borders of Ukraine and the wider Baltic and Black Sea regions, to prevent Russia from opening other fronts and moving naval assets undetected.

NATO tactical assets have assisted Ukraine directly in assembling their national defence and in putting together their counteroffensive.

To suggest that NATO, as a body corporate, has done nothing for Ukraine, directly and indirectly, is just false and misinformed.

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120772131#Comment_120772131

This. Ireland joining NATO right now would just mean relying on others for defense (like now), but other members wouldn't get much help from Ireland. So what would be the point of Ireland joining NATO?

But being neutral requires a credible defense. Otherwise you're not really neutral, you're the little guy in the school yard hoping the bullies leave you alone.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774416#Comment_120774416

Hmmm...its a fuzzy and messy area. There is no consensus in NATO beyond "support Ukraine" and how that support is delivered is haphazard. It is the exact opposite of how e.g. the EU approaches things (which is to be expected given the governance).

My point is that not that NATO as an entity has not helped, it is that NATO membership has not enforced any course of action on any of their members. It is a coordination forum, including many non-members.

None of the material heading to Ukraine are "NATO assets" in the sense of material that was actively in the rapid reaction forces of NATO.

Its the perfect cakeism world really - its mostly affairs one can choose to participate in or not unless one of the NATO members is actually attacked in which case we'll get dragged in to some degree anyway.

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773711#Comment_120773711

Why would the stupid Russians start a proxy war with NATO

the.red.baron

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774421#Comment_120774421

What kind of credible defence could we put up

Before you plan a defense you need to have an approximation of what you'd defend against

Otherwise it's pointless

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774147#Comment_120774147

No.

It has nothing to do with "my" definition at all.

the Irish Defence Forces are not there to fight for a particular side. We are not there in a "fighting capacity" as in acting as a belligerent in a conflict. We are there in a PEACE KEEPING role ONLY. Our UN requirements are quite defined in as much as we are generally a policing force.

That doesn't mean that we are immune to skirmishes or taking to arms as the situation dictates.

You are hung up on the semantics of "fighting capacity" and completely missing the the whole point.

Podge_irl

It has nothing to do with "my" definition at all.

We are not there in a "fighting capacity" as in acting as a belligerent in a conflict.

It has nothing to do with my definition but we are not there in a fighting capacity based on my definition of it 🙄

I'm not missing the point. I think people underrate the danger of UN peacekeeping missions (I recall a movement to remove us from UNIFIL after the 4 deaths in 2000) and claiming peacekeepers are not deployed in a fighting capacity continues that approach. If you turn up to train someone who to demine IEDs in a base you are there in a non-fighting capacity. If you turn up with an armoured brigade behind you you are not. I dislike you using the terminology that peacekeepers are not there in a fighting capacity because the entire point of peacekeepers is that they are there with the weight of the UN and sometimes that involves fighting. Otherwise they are completely pointless. This entire argument is because I didn't agree with your use of the quite vague term fighting capacity, and you've spent the entire time explaining to me the non-belligerent/non-combatant status of peacekeepers. Peacekeeping is a dangerous activity, it is noteworthy and praiseworthy that we engage in it. But the Irish government currently sends our troops into dangerous situations they deem worthy and while constitutionally they are the sole arbiters of this, we have allowed ourselves to become beholden to a policy where actually Putin and Xi Jinping decide it instead.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775369#Comment_120775369

It has nothing to do do my "my" definition of anything.

We are there as a PEACE KEEPING element. That doesn't exclude us from taking to arms if a given situation requires it. But it is NOT our essential remit as part of our UN obligations as part of those PEACE KEEPING efforts.

You seem to be really struggling with this concept and bogging yourself down in the very semantics that you wished to avoid.

All that's happening here is that you wish to have the last word. So you you can have the last word.

I'm done here.

realitykeeper

Is it time to disband NATO?

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120788680#Comment_120788680

Disband ? They are just getting going. Once they get Sweden and a few more volunteers in, then they can invade China.

20Wheel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120788680#Comment_120788680

Ask again later.

realitykeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120789888#Comment_120789888

It would be my considered opinion that the war in Ukraine was provoked by NATO as that benighted organization strives to justify it's existence. The west has only succeeded in isolating itself and it will lose the war it is waging with our Russian friends.

Podge_irl

Yes but your considered opinion flies in the face of all facts and logic.

Also I think the West will survive isolating itself from Russia pretty easily.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790558#Comment_120790558

Wait. We have Russian friends? I seem to recall they didn't consider Ireland friendly right now.

Maybe you have Russian friends and are projecting? I used to have Russian friends. I've not spoken to them in two years now.

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120788680#Comment_120788680

Yes, according to a pro-west Japanese intellectual history ended in 1989

BalcombeSt4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120791845#Comment_120791845

Have you not spoken to them in 2 years because you murdered them,cut off their heads off, put the heads in boxes and now ask their severed heads on tactical dating advice?

Polar101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120788680#Comment_120788680

For some reason, countries join it willingly. I think it has something to do with Russia.

So the answer seems to be 'no'.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792009#Comment_120792009

I plead the Fifth.

Risteard81

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120788680#Comment_120788680

Yes.

brickster69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792787#Comment_120792787

For a defensive organisation it has certainly caused more harm than good. In fact what good has it achieved in 70 years ?

BalcombeSt4

In all seriousness (which I HATE) neutrality has served us well, why fix something that isn't broken. Ireland is the only state in west (& most of) Europe that has not launched a war of imperialism, and never had any colonies in Africa, Asia or Oceania, well except for New Ireland Province, damn them ice cold Foster lagers record. But I'm proud of that record.

What would we do anyway? Ireland has a voluntary army. Again, I ask in all seriousness.

Who here is going to volunteer to freeze their balls or clit off in Siberia? Óglaigh na hÉireann - volunteer is in the name of our military.

AerLingus747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792908#Comment_120792908

you're pitching this to the possible majority who sit on boards while receiving government support....

they don't even want to work, let alone do anything which involves leaving their borough

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120792908#Comment_120792908

When did Norway or Sweden launch a war of imperialism? Or are you counting the vikings?

What a nonsensical post. Your smug sense of moral superiority only exists because we were conquered ourselves, and then dirt poor - and you're proud of that?