Is it time to join Nato

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929246#Comment_121929246

Well I am almost speechless. If you think what passes for the current Irish military security and intelligence capability for example the Navy currently only have one ship that is up to task then we have nothing to discuss. Our current military and intelligence capabilities are an absolute embarrassment and not even remotely somewhat effective.

Yes we are and have been for about a decade net contributors but we are spongers when it comes to the military and intelligence side of things in regard to defending ourselves. What we are or are not giving as regards the EU budget is spurious in regard to what we don't do in terms of our own defense security and intelligence.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929497#Comment_121929497

"SOMEWHAT". <---

You can't be a net contributor and a sponger at the same time.

And we do have a SOMEWHAT competant military and security apparatus. If you think we don't and you'd rather repeat-screech dramatically about the obvious issues, then you're wrong and we have nothing to discuss.

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121915932#Comment_121915932

Why ruin what is a ones in a countries lifetime opportunity?

It's like don't ask, don't tell. We just make no specific position clear until it's absolute necessary. This makes sense. We are saving big bucks and we are avoiding confrontation as much as possible. I don't see why would ever change this until we have to.

Dick phelan

No I don't believe we should join Nato. I think the world needs a few western nations that aren't part of Nato. Not relevant to Russia but, certain countries do not want to deal with Nato members in any sort of peace talks, Ireland being outside of Nato means we could actually hold an important role in helping negotiate conflict resolution. Joining Nato just makes us a very insignificant member of a large bloc, any international sway we have goes out the window. Secondly if we joined we would be the one of the softest targets if not the softest in the Nato bloc, so if anyone did want to test Nato's resolve we might be the place to try. The fact that the North of the island is still part of the UK means that the UK would practically have to intervene in the event of any attack, they pretty much already protect our airspace for us at present.

That said I would favor a big increase in our defense spending, our military really is a joke in terms of lack of equipment and manpower. We can't even do basic things like evacuating citizens from overseas without asking for help from other countries. That is simply not acceptable for a first-world country. I'm not suggesting we buy F16's or a load of tanks but we seriously need to invest in our Navy and cyber security and increase the size of our forces. The Swiss are neutral but have a military that puts ours to shame, Finland and Sweden until recently were neutral yet have capabilities miles beyond us. The "Ah sure someone else will protect us" is not good enough and frankly, it's wrong, why should other countries spend their resources to protect us when we have the money to do so put are unwilling to do it.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929512#Comment_121929512

I was down the Curragh last week hanging out with some of the lads training. It's a bit depressing to see such dedicated individuals doing their best with no particular direction. One of the problems in rating effectiveness is that one needs to know what the purpose of the organisation is. The official answer at this time of writing is "defend the state against armed aggression". There is currently a board sitting which will be evaluating just what they want the defense forces to do in the future and everyone is awaiting such guidance, but whatever the result, (I would expect cyber to be added to the armed bit, for example) the current defense forces can't do the current mission. The Naval Service at best is a coast guard (before remembering that there is only one operational ship which rather limits effectiveness at that role) , the air Corps is more a civil response organization (emergency airlifts, search and rescue), and the Army is configured and equipped more or less to the standard of two 1970s light infantry brigades with a few high tech toys. To be at least somewhat effective, one has to be able to see something to be somewhat effective against. It has no eyes to see what is in the sky (granted, being fixed), or what is under the water. To go get Irish citizens in trouble abroad, it needs to hitch a lift with a friendly military which has the space. But in the basic mission statement of "defend the state against armed aggression", just how does it rate as even "somewhat" effective? At best it performs functions performed by armed civilian organizations in other countries such as hostage rescue and ship boarding.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929512#Comment_121929512

Been a net contributor to the EU budget does not change the fact that we spend very little money on defense, security and intelligence capabilities and do not have a somewhat never mind an actually effective defense and intelligence force and thus are indeed spongers because we depend on others to spend money in those areas and cover us as well because we won't do it ourselves.

Ireland does not have a somewhat never mind competent military and intelligence capability. The commission into our defense forces admitted that if left at current levels our defense forces would be unable to conduct a meaningful defense of the state. Now a commitment was made by the current government to improve things to as described in said report level 2 which would involve us actually acquire radar systems, increase the Navy size as well as improving intelligence and cyber security as well as new aircraft. To move to level 3 as described in the report would see Ireland develop its capabilities to levels similar to other smaller EU countries and would cost about 2.5-3 times what we current spend on defense which is about 1b. The commission recommended we move to level 2 in the short term with a view to a debate on moving to level 3. The commission didn't use the word sponger but did describe Ireland when it comes to defense spending and capability in more euphemistic terms as an "outlier". Commandant Conor King of RACO said "We agree with the commission’s assertion that the continuation of "business as usual" in terms of capability provision will leave this country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland, its people and its resources for any sustained period,".

We only have 2 Naval vessels patrolling our seas which is actually considerably less then maintaining the status quo and thus our Naval situation has actually deteriorated from the 8 it used to be. In fact recently this year it was down to 1 vessel.

Naval service has only one patrol ship operating in Irish waters (irishexaminer.com)

No Time to Hide: The Future of Irish Defense and Security - War on the Rocks

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931042#Comment_121931042

Being a net contributor means you cant simultaneously be a sponger.

You can go around self-hating over nothing all day long if you like. Wont change anything.

And you can go around doing this exaggeration act where you wrongly think we dont have a somewhat capable defense force.

Meanwhile the DF will competently do all the many things it does at home and abroad, air, sea and land. With some very high quality equipment, personnel and results.

Are they insufficent? Yes.

Are improvements being made? Yes.

Are they therefore somewhat effective? Yes obviously, its right before your eyes. Helos are flying, apcs are rolling, mortars are firing, trucks are carrying, and missions are being completed.

The commissioned reports you mention describe a situation of insufficience. Not of non-existence, which would be a short report indeed. Therefore by logic there must be a somewhat effective entity.

Sudden Valley

I think there is a general agreement we should invest more in our defence but I can't see any argument put up here that would prompt the public to decide we should join Nato.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931243#Comment_121931243

No self hating here at all. I would say projection on your part there since you brought that up.

Bine a net contributor to the EU budget does not change the fact that we do not spend the money on our own defense security and intelligence and due to the fact that we look to others for some of that spending we are indeed spongers in that regard.

No exaggeration at all the defense forces we have are not up to task. Not the people themselves but our lack of resourcing of them. Albeit the defense forces are significantly under staffed as well again related to our under resourcing of defense.

Have to say thanks for giving me a good laugh there. The commission which I referenced clearly states that as currently standing the defense forces cannot provide a creditable defense of the sate. To quote again Commandant King:

 Commandant Conor King of RACO said "We agree with the commission’s assertion that the continuation of "business as usual" in terms of capability provision will leave this country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland, its people and its resources for any sustained period,".

Or the situation we currently have where the Navy cannot only send out 2 patrol vessels and even this year for a while only 1. That rather than an improvement is actually worse.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930842#Comment_121930842

An organization of thousands which runs year round, with assets and budgets in the hundreds of millions, yet doesnt meet the standards which one might expect judged by its peers (and accounting for size).

That would be a somewhat effective organization.

How effective is somewhat effective?

That can be gotten into.

It all helps, because frankly Im tired of the wildly inaccurate, moronic exaggerations which describe the DF in terms of complete non-existence, or complete incompetency.

By all means people should criticize, but just some accuracy in that criticism would be nice, even a token amount. Makes the thread feel less cheap and tabloidy.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931335#Comment_121931335

"the defense forces we have are not up to task."

Yeah. That would make them only somewhat effective.

Look, basically youre being a drama queen on this issue (imo). You refuse all nuance, all shades of grey, everything is completely fuked by your standards. Its perfect or its nothing. Your posts are like a cheap tabloid, your attitude is cynical. You take all the competencies of the DF and flush them down the crapper on the basis of their incompetencies. Theres no balanced view, thats why youre having a little fit over the word 'somewhat'. Can you acknowledge their insufficiencies, you bet, can you acknolwledge their achievements, no not once.

And theres an irony in your quoting a commandant. Since obviously it takes an at least somewhat structured and capable organization to justify a commandant. Would there be a commandant and an officers representative association if everything was quite as hugely farcical as you make out in your queenish hysyerics. No.

The very fact that you have officers making govt commissioned examinations of capabilities and insufficiencies, and drawing up response plans and budgets would clearly suggest an at least somewhat effective organization.

But dont let that stop you, Piers.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931469#Comment_121931469

Brilliant entertainment now. Love how you descend into insults and some really great ones there too. I guess the projection I mentioned in my previous reply was nail on the head in terms of your good self.

I never said the military was completely uncapable. I have consistent said that our military, security and intelligence capabilities are clearly not up to the task required to provide a creditable and capable defense, security and intelligence for Ireland. The commission reporting on our defense forces stated as much and this was backed up by Commandant King.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931522#Comment_121931522

Right.

So if theyre not completely incapable, that would make them somewhat effective.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931540#Comment_121931540

Not what the commission or Commandant King said. Again the commission said that as currently standing the defense forces cannot provide a creditable defense of the state. To quote again Commandant King:

"We agree with the commission’s assertion that the continuation of "business as usual" in terms of capability provision will leave this country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland, its people and its resources for any sustained period,".

StudentDad

Nevermind NATO, we need a properly functioning EU Armed Forces - Airforce, Army, Navy, etc., As it stands, the Guards asked the Irish Navy to help them track down some drug smugglers and our one available ship was roped into some St. Patricks Day Open Day thing in Dublin.

An EU wide Armed forces isn't going to happen this week, but that's where we should be going. Something happens in EU territorial waters and someone picks up the phone and rings London. It's kinda embarrassing.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931554#Comment_121931554

Yes I agree with King.

Back to you.

When you talk of "not completely incapable".

This is just the negative form of "somewhat effective".

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931593#Comment_121931593

When I talk of our military security and intelligence capabilities I am saying and have consistently said they are not up to the task of providing a creditable military capability something the commission states and that Commandant King reiterates. Something that is highlighted for example by our Navy recently having only one vessel to patrol our waters and otherwise only 2 vessels an actual worsening of our Navies capability since the commissions report.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931676#Comment_121931676

So is our military (a) completely incapable or (b) not completely incapable?

Sincere question.

There may even be (c) somewhat incapable.

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931696#Comment_121931696

haha thats quality again. The answer is IMHO and it also seems to be an opinion shared by the commission and Commandant King is that we do not at present have a military, security and intelligence that can provide Ireland with a quoting Commandant King's words:

"We agree with the commission’s assertion that the continuation of "business as usual" in terms of capability provision will leave this country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland, its people and its resources for any sustained period,".

In fact as we see this year with sometimes only one naval vessel able to patrol our waters and we are an island after all that this sees us actually in worse shape in terms of our Navy then when the commission published its findings.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931715#Comment_121931715

Yet our military is still not completely incapable.

I.e. it is somewhat effective.

Manic Moran

Frankly, if we have to choose your apparent definition of "somewhat", I'd say it is "completely incapable", unless the opposition is armed to the level of a small WW2 power. Or is Luxembourg. (Which, though it also has no combat aircraft at least has air search radar, which Ireland doesn't). It is somewhat capable of policing duties. It certainly does not meet the description of being completely capable of policing given the lack in the air and subsurface domains. Even point defense is questionable: When Biden visited it was revealed that Ireland could not deploy even the short range air defense missiles it's supposed to have because the (one) target acquisition system in the inventory was broken. I'd bet dollars the Americans brought some Stingers along for the job.

Indeed the pointlessness of it all has led to discussions in the past over why Ireland still maintains the expense of its artillery and air defense arms (cavalry is also under evaluation of late) or why Ireland has its PC9 aircraft. They certainly are not for modern combat purposes, one notes that they do not deploy such formations on peace keeping duties. The reason, and it's a good one, is to retain the institutional skills necessary so that the DF will be somewhat capable of doing the job should the government finally decide that it wants to fund a defence force capable of doing at least some practical defending. The troops will be more ready for it.

Which is why this commission or board or whatever they are calling it is sitting. Is it worth maintaining the current structure? Should it be brought up to snuff? Or should it go the route of, say, Costa Rica and give it up as a bad lot and have only armed civilian organisations for policing and lifesaving purposes?

fly_agaric

Once they can provide the UN some soldiers (others can do the logistics, supply heav(ier) weaponry if it is closer to peace "enforcement" than "keeping") and turn out for a parade at Easter they will technically never be "completely incapable" I suppose...

As mentioned in a post above...unfortunately the cartels did not all take the bank holiday off. Business never sleeps...

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/03/18/no-naval-service-ship-available-for-cork-drugs-search-due-to-st-patricks-day-celebrations/

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121931757#Comment_121931757

Never said our military was completely incapable. I have consistently pointed out and the commission and Commandant King in response said that:

"We agree with the commission’s assertion that the continuation of "business as usual" in terms of capability provision will leave this country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland, its people and its resources for any sustained period,".

It matters not exactly what level of ability our military has when the bottom line is we do not currently have a credible capability to defend ourselves. This sadly is exemplified by the fact our Naval situation is actually even worse since the commission published with at times this year only 1 vessel patrolling our seas and at most otherwise it was just 2.

The bottom line is our current military, security and intelligence capability is not capable of protecting us in a credible way and that needs to change and sooner rather then later.

highpitcheric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934067#Comment_121934067

Yes I know.

And I agree with King. So theres no more hiding behind that reference left for you.

I asked you if you think our defense forces are completely incapable.

You wont answer that direct question, because you know they arent.

And you know that 'not completely incapable' is something akin to 'somewhat effective'.

Which is what they are.

And you agree with that, dont you?

eire4

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934168#Comment_121934168

There is no hiding going on for me rather once again we have more classic projection IMHO on your part in that regard as you seem fixated on what you think is your big "gotcha" which is really just your attempt to move the goalposts so to speak.

The only point I have been consistently making is that our military security and intelligence capabilities are not up to the task required and that regardless of whether we join NATO or not we must develop a genuinely creditable and capable military security and intelligence capability. This point is backed up by the commissions report and Commandant King's assertertion that:

"We agree with the commission’s assertion that the continuation of "business as usual" in terms of capability provision will leave this country without a credible military capability to protect Ireland, its people and its resources for any sustained period,".

No I don't agree that our defense, security and intelligence capabilities are up to task to provide us with creditable and capable protection. This sadly is emphasized lately by the fact our Naval service is now even worse not better given we have at most 2 and sometimes this year only 1 vessel patrolling our waters.

highpitcheric

As I was saying some posts back.

Our defense forces are somewhat effective.

Theyre not completely incapable.

If you disagree, reply to this comment.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934221#Comment_121934221

Botton line is that they are not capable enough. They are not capable of defending the country from a serious attack from anything bigger that a small group of badly armed terrorists.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121929246#Comment_121929246

Individual countries fund defence, not the EU, so saying we are net contributors to the EU budget is irrelevant.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121930135#Comment_121930135

The idea of Ireland having 'international sway' in relation to a military conflict is entirely laughable.

Dick phelan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121934437#Comment_121934437

Perhaps you should look at the efforts Ireland has made around the world with demining and the high regard our peacekeepers are held in.