Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873311#Comment_118873311

They have no right to return here with anyone, will they house them or feed them or clothe them or dump them on the state to mind them

also the Simon community must be thinking how can we harness this amazing community spirit to help Ukrainian refugees and get these same people to show the same respect and decency and charity to our own homeless people which stands at thousands

but hey you do you

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873333#Comment_118873333

Can you show where they have no right to return with anyone?

According to your own posts in the would you fight for Dublin thread in CA, that were snapshot by people replying you were calling the homeless dole head scum and a reason why you wouldn't fight for Ireland including the gay community as another reason, so don't pretend to be concerned about them here

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873424#Comment_118873424

Never said I was and I am not

I am concerned with people like you and those dummies you mention with the van going over and acting like they are gods

we have a housing crisis and out of control inflation and health and education systems that are a disgrace and you are actively promoting we make these terrible issues worse by importing a million poor people

you either don’t understand the problems you are creating or you just don’t care , either way the majority are on my side and always have been and always will be

stop trying to ruin our country, let’s pay Poland and other bordering nations to support them . We are not a big enough country or even rich enough to help any other way

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873316#Comment_118873316

Poland have taken 2 million refugees, I wouldn't be hysterical over the meager number we've taken. As someone who works with market analysts, am fully aware of the economic consequences of this war no one wanted. I fully support the sanctions.

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873461#Comment_118873461

Sure you do

explain what exactly your job is and what are the economic consequences and why you fully support the sanctions

no links just your own professional opinion

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873457#Comment_118873457

You consistently post foolish drivel like this, which adds NOTHING to vigorous debate.

Please go away and keep your childish nonsense to yourself.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873457#Comment_118873457

The lads I know heading to Poland, they don't see themselves as gods and neither do I. They just aren't the type to be arseh*les about people in need.

You said that they had no right to bring people back, post a link to where it shows that they don't.

Can you also post the link where we are talking in a million Ukrainian refugees.

Can you post a link to backup your repeated claim that the majority are with you and always have been?B een asked for a few times and nothing provided by you to back it up.

At least you have stopped pretending to be concerned about the homeless

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873486#Comment_118873486

Excuse me but we are discussing the war and the fallout from it

why do you believe we should not discuss openly the economic and social fallouts from the actions from the decisions being made by all parties

again you will not debate questions and topics which the majority now are discussing

i suggest you and others here are the problem , not me, take off the blinkers

in the near future when our housing crisis is worse you will no where to be seen

you are the human equivalent of smoking

tooka

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873508#Comment_118873508

Already did just check the last independent website , you cannot expect people who are struggling to buy a home and pay outrageous rent to actually give a fcuk about you and your virtue signalling

you are more worried about people thousands of miles away and there is plenty of people here that Need your help

maybe get your van buddies to help people In their own county , plenty there

StringerBell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873486#Comment_118873486

Which is fine, and correct in fact - however, at what point do you have to start to find fault more so with the people who allow themselves to be used as a sounding board by replying to the poster in question?

I know it can be hard but there are functions that allow you to no longer have to see posts, and if you starve an account who is just trying to dance along the line of staying within the guidelines of oxygen they will inevitably crack and stray too far trying to provoke a reaction.

Once you've tried a few times, as many have to debate in good faith & you have been shown over & over that its pointless it is surely time to just ignore?

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873539#Comment_118873539

You are correct. "Ignore" appears to be the only option.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873524#Comment_118873524

They already do and yet again you haven't provided a link to back up your claims, especially if you read past the free bit of the from the indo.

Those struggling to pay rent and buy a home include young public sector and Cs workers who you incorrectly claimed are paid more than their private sector equivalent.

Yet they and many other working people support and assist people in the Ukraine.

So far nothing but baseless claims and outright inaccuracies from you.

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873169#Comment_118873169

Think you are somewhat harsh again with parts of that (esp. as regards the Germans given about face they have done, fixing the past policy as regards Russia is going to take time). Maybe harsh but fair in other parts I admit. Unmentioned by you also when singling out others around the EU for dishonourable mention is the fact Ireland's response to this crisis hasn't been so wonderful (although, it matters much less than France or Germany).

I believe reports of these calls have been saying that Putin is often the one calling up Macron for a "chat" here. e.g. after a search

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220315-after-20-hours-of-talks-will-macron-putin-dialogue-deliver

However I think you are right it may be pointless talking to Putin at all at this stage. I kind of imagine if Merkel were still in power (given length of time they know each other), Putin would also be ringing her up a lot too to give her grief about NATO, how Ukrainians are Russians in need of "de-Nazification", why he had to invade and why the sanctions are so unfair and outrageous etc.

I think the US response could be (somewhat) better too (edit: as you said, comparing it to the past e.g. their response to Yugoslav war, but those were different times). Apart from the restraint due to worries about provoking some response from Russia by NATO either intervening directly or going past a threshold by helping Ukraine "too much" with weapons, I wonder is Biden affected at all by domestic concerns - the contingent of voters over there who want an isolationist foreign policy? (though I suppose most of them won't ever vote Democrat anyway).

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118873539#Comment_118873539

If you ignore an idiot you miss out on them making an idiot of themselves. It also means that you you can easily spot their rereg and sock puppet accounts.

If people don't point out that they and their claims are full of sh1t then you leave the possibility of someone who isn't compos mentis reading them and thinking yeah they are right because no one pointed out where they were wrong.

Brussels Sprout

Surprised not to see any posts about what the Ukrainian army found in Bucha yesterday after the Russians left. It was utterly vile. It appears that the Russian's executed huge numbers of civilians. Many of them were found with their hands tied behind their backs and gunshots to the head. The bodies of naked women were found partially burned - I think we all know what happened to them before they were murdered.

There is a video of a car driving down the street slaloming around corpses. This is the truth of what the Russians do. This is almost certainly happening in places like Mariupol right now as well. The pictures from Bucha are too gruesome to post but they're all over twitter.

The Russians have no honour. They have no dignity. They're repugnant, cowards drunk on their their own sense of superiority.

This is who they are.

https://twitter.com/nolanwpeterson/status/1510498504183005184

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874041#Comment_118874041

Just making a backup in case the original post was to get corrupted at some stage in the future.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874082#Comment_118874082

I agree with you completely - this is horrendous. We havent seen this type of depravity since world war 2 - its appalling - it disgusts me - the report of the young girls from Mariupol, i mean - christ i dont know what to say - as a father - its making me physically ill

https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas

fly_agaric

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874035#Comment_118874035

The only benefit to confronting it is the one you mentioned in another post, the public service aspect for lurkers and others who just read i.e. not allowing it to sit there unconfronted. But it is alot of work, and unpaid thankless work at that. Unfortunately the bad actors, often in pay of or beholden to authoritatian nightmare-scapes like Russia/China, have in my opinion largely carried the day or at least have acheived/are achieving what they set out to do (for now) on the open Western internet/social media, despite the hard efforts of people who try and put a stop to it or limit the damage.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874096#Comment_118874096

I've already read those links,

The problem with not pushing back on their bullshit is unfortunately well documented

https://theconversation.com/how-russias-unanswered-propaganda-led-to-the-war-in-ukraine-180202

https://warontherocks.com/2016/11/trolling-for-trump-how-russia-is-trying-to-destroy-our-democracy/

iamwhoiam

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874129#Comment_118874129

The Russians did the same and worse to women and children when the arrived in Berlin . It was only when the USA and British arrived that some sort of discipline was returned .The Russians raped , tortured and murdered children . I heard it first hand from a family member and I will never ever forget the account she told of the horrors .

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874129#Comment_118874129

Unfortunately we have, and not so long ago. The Serbians did the same in Bosnia and Kosovo. Trust me, some of the things I heard from war crime victims will keep me awake at night.

liamtech

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874279#Comment_118874279

Good point actually - monstrous stuff - and now its happening again - insanity

What angers me is there being VERY LITTLE CHANCE for any of these butchers to answer for their crimes -

myfreespirit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874096#Comment_118874096

The stomach-churning and horrific reports contained above remind me of an Irish Times editorial written during the 1990's Balkans Wars: "The Devil has been set loose in the hills around Sarajevo..."

The Russian armed forces are bringing new depths of bestiality to conflict in Europe, just when we thought it couldn't get any worse.

I sincerely hope that at least some of the perpetrators will face justice for their crimes, no matter how long it takes.

Heaven knows what will be uncovered in Mariupol and other places in Eastern Ukraine.

The only way that I can see to stop this is for the civilised world to step up the supply of war materiél, know-how, intelligence to Ukraine to enable them to stop the Russian artillery shelling, and to drive out the invaders. Otherwise, we are likely to witness a repeat of the horror seen in Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Kosovo during the Balkan wars.

fly_agaric

@Brussels Sprout

What is there to say really? No words but not surprised. It fits with other Russian actions and that disturbing (to me) "de-Nazification" rhetoric in the propaganda justifying the war.

It is a bit strange they did not clean up after themselves a bit better. Either they just don't care, or more likely (speculating?) it must be a bit of a rout, and they were worried advancing Ukrainian army was soon going to entrap and kill/capture/destroy remaining Russian soldiers and equipment etc. in that area of the country. So perhaps they were very hastily ordered out to save them from this. No time to dispose of bodies etc.

@Lemming

I don't think "Bomber Harris" eye for an eye approach from that quote is the way to go (for Ukraine when attacking Russia "back" on their own soil) even if they had the capability. Forgetting the morality of it, would be counterproductive for their aims for a couple of reasons I can think of, even though Russia has opened that box by attacking civilians as a strategy of their war + at least some soldiers now shown to be committing war crimes as well in the areas they occupy. 

It makes a Russian escalation more likely, if Russia/regime feel they are under threat (say, when Russian cities/civilians are also attacked indiscriminately in return). It makes the propaganda pivot for Russia/regime much easier (from limited "Special Operation" in Ukraine to "War for Survivial & A Necessary War vs Nazis") and so it helps them keep public support in Russia for the policy high, which might be sapped if the levels of casualties in their own military and sheer scale of this war cut through despite their control of information.

They (Putin and regime) do still seem to care about the public opinion in Russia a bit. They will probably start this kind of pivot if (hope not, but could be likely) they have no intention of ending this any time soon and it could be dragging on.

So (in unexpert opinion) I think focus of Ukraine should be the Russian military and the key "dual use" stuff they rely on for the invasion, wherever it is, and when it can be got at with an acceptable level of risk for the gain. Maybe in Belarus too (?) given I think it was being used as a Russian military staging area, and Russia launches missile attacks from it with support of the dictator (although I could imagine they might be cautious here, to avoid prodding Lukashenko into joining the war more explicitly).

Some predictions in the news channels over last few days saying this war may drag on into Autumn and that people and EU countries may go lukewarm about interventions, coverage and what not- as their own domestic challenges ( such as they are compared to the suffering in Ukraine) may take over- rising prices, fuel rationing etc

This does happen and has happened with other wars- however because it impacts us directly, at the very least through our economies, it should certainly remain front page news

I haven’t clicked on the atrocities links above that others have posted- the descriptions are enough to terrify; each atrocity worse than the last; it’s so mentally depressing, and I hasten to add, I thank god I’m not there and pray for those who are.

but in terms of a resolution, I just don’t see one - and my views on Russia and Russians are tarnished forever more- I’ll never trust a word that comes from present or future leaders of that country and rightly or wrongly, I’ll look with distain on the population as a whole- is that wrong of me? These soldiers are or were up to recently ordinary Russian citizens- and look what they’re doing to innocent men women and children - They’re as bad as any ISIS or taliban- in some respects worse, because they’re invading a country under the auspices of “normal war conditions and rules” - but they’re behaving like the worst of ISIS .

What I do hope for, is that sanctions remain long after this war is over but I fear money will continue to talk very quickly if a peace agreement is found. We’re not as united in the EU as we think we are.

Lemming

@fly_agaric wrote:

I don't think "Bomber Harris" eye for an eye approach from that quote is the way to go (for Ukraine when attacking Russia "back" on their own soil) even if they had the capability. Forgetting the morality of it, would be counterproductive for their aims for a couple of reasons I can think of, even though Russia has opened that box by attacking civilians as a strategy of their war + at least some soldiers now shown to be committing war crimes as well in the areas they occupy. 

It makes a Russian escalation more likely, if Russia/regime feel they are under threat (say, when Russian cities/civilians are also attacked indiscriminately in return). It makes the propaganda pivot for Russia/regime much easier (from limited "Special Operation" in Ukraine to "War for Survivial & A Necessary War vs Nazis") and so it helps them keep public support in Russia for the policy high, which might be sapped if the levels of casualties in their own military and sheer scale of this war cut through despite their control of information.

The Harris quote was not referenced for any notions of "eye for an eye" but rather the quote as it is given - the arrogant naievety of the Germans during WW2 in believing that those they attacked would not strike back. In any case, an eye for an eye would have been Ukraine striking schools, hospitals and nurseries in a "special military operation". But they didn't. They took out a fuel depot supplying the Russian military, and an ammo dump prior to that. 100% legitimate military targets and strikes carried out with clinical precision.

Does that make Russian escalation more likely? I doubt it; Putin was already escalating it with his fresh draft. Kinda hard to argue that in defending yourself you are escalating when the other guy has shown both no intention of stopping, and has shown a growing level of barbarism. Russia has zero credibility here; they haven't even bothered to show up for the moral highground races, never mind contest them.

Maybe in Belarus too (?) given I think it was being used as a Russian military staging area, and Russia launches missile attacks from it with support of the dictator (although I could imagine they might be cautious here, to avoid prodding Lukashenko into joining the war more explicitly).

Regards Belarus, the news reporting has shifted in that media censorship of Ukrainians being interviewed/reporting is no longer happening (or less so at any rate), and a less "filtered" view of what is occurring in Ukraine at the hands of the Russians is being presented to the Belorusian populace. Add to that, concerted efforts by Belarusians to sabotage rail networks to prevent Russians or Belorusian troop deployments, several volunteer batallions of Belorusians fighting against the Russians in Ukraine, and all is not well in the state of Belarus. Lukashenko has been remarkably quiet since the early days of the war and he must be well aware that that Belorusian forces may be ... "unreliable" if deployed into Ukraine to serve Putins bidding.

growleaves

I just want to say again in case anyone missed it there is no way that an autocrat and KGB-trained operative like Putin, who freely kills tens of thousands of civilians, is a real Christian despite what he claims. You don't rise to be a colonel in the KGB that way. He was a higher-up under the Communist system remember. This propaganda is aimed at scooping up Western Christians who feel dissatisfaction their own atheist-materialist societies, and also its meant to appeal to Russian Orthodox and Ukrainian Orthodox and the wider Ortho-sphere (Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria etc.)

Russian citizens have no real rights. Most have no chance of owning a home and this is why a lot of the men drink themselves to death. Maybe they hang onto patriotism as a consolation.

I see that Alex Jones and other born liars in the alt-right media are pushing the "Putin is a Christian" line heavily. I think this an attempt to blackwash Christians by association.

fly_agaric

@Lemming

The Harris quote was not referenced for any notions of "eye for an eye" but rather the quote as it is given - the arrogant naievety of the Germans during WW2 in believing that those they attacked would not strike back. In any case, an eye for an eye would have been Ukraine striking schools, hospitals and nurseries in a "special military operation". But they didn't. They took out a fuel depot supplying the Russian military, and an ammo dump prior to that. 100% legitimate military targets and strikes carried out with clinical precision.

Does that make Russian escalation more likely? I doubt it; Putin was already escalating it with his fresh draft. Kinda hard to argue that in defending yourself you are escalating when the other guy has shown both no intention of stopping, and has shown a growing level of barbarism. Russia has zero credibility here; they haven't even bothered to show up for the moral highground races, never mind contest them.

Sorry, Re the Harris quote I suppose I didn't separate the content of it from the man himself + his strategies for UKs air war on Germany. Agree with you on above, and I didn't mean to imply what Ukraine had done (attacking military or dual use targets inside Russia) was anything near an "eye for an eye" or unjustified whatsoever, or that it would be creating a risk of escalation.

On the escalation, unfortunately despite their army getting a beating and their plan for invasion of Ukraine failing, Russia can still escalate even as brutal as they have been already. Maybe nothing Ukraine does can affect Putin's/Russia's decisions about that, and the fact that they must "win" to survive (and so Russia/Putin must "lose" here, or at least not get much of what was aimed for originally) could make it a zero sum, but seems better for them to keep it under consideration in how they act + strategies they adopt.

Regards Belarus, the news reporting has shifted in that media censorship of Ukrainians being interviewed/reporting is no longer happening (or less so at any rate), and a less "filtered" view of what is occurring in Ukraine at the hands of the Russians is being presented to the Belorusian populace. Add to that, concerted efforts by Belarusians to sabotage rail networks to prevent Russians or Belorusian troop deployments, several volunteer batallions of Belorusians fighting against the Russians in Ukraine, and all is not well in the state of Belarus. Lukashenko has been remarkably quiet since the early days of the war and he must be well aware that that Belorusian forces may be ... "unreliable" if deployed into Ukraine to serve Putins bidding.

Yes, I knew the dictator in Belarus (Lukashenko) is hated. Even if the army leadership (and I suppose rank and file) obey him (were he to ally more openly/strongly with Russia in the war) he might be quite nervous if they are all busy fighting with Ukraine instead of being available to be called on to protect him and his regime.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118874788#Comment_118874788

Going by reports so far a lot of his military are just flat out refusing to fight with Russia in the Ukraine and the population are against doing so, it is possible that pushing for his military to so would be more of a danger to him.

Brussels Sprout

So apparently there is a rally of cars driving around Berlin today in support of Russia.

https://twitter.com/Enio16440447/status/1510618377806569472

Imagine having access to free media and choosing to ignore it and still support Russia.

This shows the absolute folly in believing that citizens in Russia itself will ever rise up against Putin.