Aodhán Ó Ríordáin wants to ban single sex schools

joseywhales

Anecdotally, I went to all boys national school and a mixed secondary. I have to say the rate of progression in the national school was phenomenal, best learning experience of my life. It wasn't until third year in secondary that I was exposed to some new material to learn in the classroom, since the national school teachers had an ethos of pushing us as far as we could go in the time allotted, we studied beyond any curriculum. I hope I can find a school like that for my kids, though it all depends on the staff at the time and these guys were experienced and vocational.

Regarding the gender schools, it's up to educational psychologists to make that call based on analysis of outcomes but surely we have bigger fish to fry(like energy independence, northern Ireland, housing, economic competitiveness and the protection of nature) like why is this important?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620575#Comment_118620575

Maybe by that world be a separate thread.

To say it's 'pie in the sky nonsense' aimed at getting 'a few likes on social media' is commenting on the man and his motives personally, which is avoiding the issue. Also, not something I'm in a position to comment on without knowing him.

TooTired123

If the pupils, staff and parents (the only people who matter in this area) want to dispense with single sex schools then they will make it happen, and very quickly and easily too. So until then I can’t see why it’s a cause for any concern at all.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616655#Comment_118616655

They won’t be going anywhere because the parents pupils and staff obviously don’t want anything to change. If they did, then they’d demand change. I have no idea why people think that they should have changed foisted on them?

Our town has become bigger and busier and economically stronger in every way over recent years by the addition of many families adhering to Islam who have arrived, they tell me, in part because we have 3 huge single sex schools 1 mixed secondary and 1 mixed primary with 3 primary’s which are only mixed until first class and single sex after that.

The town is booming. All are welcome.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620623#Comment_118620623

No coeducational school in West Dublin?

https://goviedevassets.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/000b4868723-298c-4f1e-9eb8-0a6f77d23c3a/91339F_WSEMLLPP_6852_20180524.pdf

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620744#Comment_118620744

You could have suggested that before making the point that I was responding to! It’s not off-topic in any case because it relates to education reform in Ireland, and why it’s necessary, and what kind of areas are in need of reform in order to make the proposals for reform a reality.

It’s not any sort of a comment on O Riordan personally, it refers specifically to his ideas, which amount to nothing more than pie in the sky nonsense which gets likes on social media and little else in terms of tangible outcomes. He’s certainly not the first person to ever suggest the idea, nor will he be the last. That’s why I gave the example I did of education reform which was an idea, which translated into reality and the two Ministers behind it were responsible for the largest amount of public funding ever given to the DEIS programme in the budget for education. It’s a hugely significant step in terms of education reform and social reform.

I didn’t expect you in any case to comment on O Riordan personally, I wasn’t either because I was referring to his ideas. The only time I referred to him personally, the first time I made it clear it was a rhetorical question, and the second time was to point out that I don’t believe for a minute he’s so stupid as he makes out with the ideas he has in mind for education and social reform.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620960#Comment_118620960

The comment I made was in relation to the idea of gender-based being an answer to inequality.

We're not talking about full-on educational reform. If anything, the idea is more social.

Also, you questioned O'Riordan's motives, not his idea, by saying he was doing it for social media likes.

Itssoeasy

I don’t think banning single sex schools is a good idea, but I do think more mixed schools is a good thing, because there is more choice for parents, who will decide on what school their kids should go to.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118621063#Comment_118621063

This is the part of your post I was commenting on -

I'd see any advantage as being more class-based then gender-based though.

I didn’t comment on whether or not he had to prove any sort of an advantage or disadvantage in education based upon gender, I already see where he’s coming from. It’s why I said his ideas for social and education reform by way of addressing the issues he sees, are just pie in the sky nonsense that gets a few likes on social media. That’s referring to the ideas themselves, because like I said - he’s hardly the first person to come up with the ideas or the proposed means to address the issues he espouses in terms of education and social reform.

I didn’t question his motives, because I don’t care for his motives. The ideas stand on their own merits as incredibly stupid and juvenile. If I’d wanted to question his motives I would simply have suggested he’s likely being motivated by the fact he was bullied in school as a child -

https://www.thejournal.ie/aodhan-o-riordain-bullied-at-school-1749620-Oct2014/?amp=1

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118621117#Comment_118621117

1 - That doesn't mean I want a discussion on it, just making an observation

2 - Saying its going to get likes and is blatantly NOT commenting on the idea, but bringing the motives into question. Bullying is even more irrrelevant, so get back on topic.

Challenge - assume you had no idea who came up with the idea or why, and then comment on it.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118621186#Comment_118621186

I can’t read your mind, I can’t read anyones mind for that matter, so when anyone expresses their ideas in the public domain, I don’t have to read their mind, and it’s not unreasonable to assume it’s something they wish to discuss.

Saying anything is a pie in the sky idea put out there for likes, is commenting on the idea. It’s not an original idea and I have no interest in where it comes from. As I said earlier today about another idea -

For what it’s worth, I am Irish, I’m not a lefty, but having a neck like a jockeys bollocks isn’t necessary to determine whether an idea is a good idea or a bad idea, whether it comes from the left, the right, AGS management, the media, politicians, or members of the general public.

I have challenged the idea, I don’t care where or who it comes from, it’s still a stupid and juvenile idea which is just put out there for likes on social media. If I thought it was a good idea, I’d support it, as I have done in promoting the idea of education and social reform by addressing socioeconomic deprivation experienced by families who can ill-afford education for their children which would contribute to social mobility and social equality, and removing that opportunity for them by removing opportunities for children to be the best version of themselves as Norma Foley put it, would have a detrimental effect upon the education of the most marginalised in Irish society, y’know, the section of society that regularly gets pilloried around these parts by condescending fcuks who look down their noses at them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118621264#Comment_118621264

Not a question of reading minds, its a question of knowing when not to go off on tangents on trivial observations.

Saying it's pie in the sky/likes makes no reference whatsoever to the idea. It could be a great idea and still be for the likes. It could be an awful idea and sill be for the likes. I read that one sentence and I have no idea what you think of the idea. I can't even tell if you now what the idea actaully IS!! And I don't give a **** about you being Irish/left/whatever - IT'S NOT RELEVANT TO THE IDEA!!!

TLDR version - you REALLY need to learn how to stay on-topic and keep your comments relevant to the issue.

ANd I'm out - not going off on another one of your trivial tangents.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118621433#Comment_118621433

YOU introduced the irrelevant tangent into this discussion with what you’re now calling your own trivial observation.

Referring to an idea as pie in the sky, is explicitly referring to the idea -

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/pie-in-the-sky

For the TL;DR version and to know what I think of the idea, you only had to read my first comment in this discussion -

In any case, Aodhán is talking out his arse again. There just isn’t a hope of what he’s talking about ever becoming a reality, never mind in the next 10 to 15 years 🙄

Hasschu

In Canada the French Canadians and the Irish insisted on public religious education and got it. Later Italians, Poles and Germans benefited. The Premier of Quebec announced last year that 40% of French Canadians have Irish blood. The Irish were very well received 1845 and onwards by French Canadians and there was a high rate of intermarriage. The Protestants here had the Orange taint which probably accounts for the ready availability of Catholic education. Not only were my children and grandchildren entitled to a religious education they were entitled to a bilingual English and French education. In addition outside of regular school hours the German Gov't subsidised German language education. When I went to Primary school in Ireland the class size was 53 including 6 or 7 Protestants. Lunch was 1200 to 1230, religion was 1230 to 1330, the Protestants had an hour and a half for lunch. There are a few single sex schools run by nuns for girls and very few for boys except for KG and First Class. Moslems do favour girls only schools and have set up Moslem only schools not funded by the State a majority attend Public schools. Religion in schools is a matter for the parents to decide and there should be no sweeping legislation, supply and demand should be the determinants. Church attendance is in decline but the demand for religious education has held up here.

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627672#Comment_118627672

Has it held up or is it because there are no alternatives. In our case the educate together was way over subscribed so the only option was the catholic boys schools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627672#Comment_118627672

So what do the non religious kids do between 12.30-13.30?

90 mins is way too long for a lunch break, especially in a primary school.

byhookorbycrook

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118628640#Comment_118628640

Lunch break is 30 minutes. Lunch break was an hour, under the original system of 1831 but 30 minutes was taken from that that hour for religion. Teachers were, effectively teaching religion " on their own time."

No matter the system, nowadays, be it faith based or multi-denom (like ET and some Gaelscoileanna) each teacher is supposed to spend 30 minutes a day on some form of religion. In reality, I'd be surprised if 30 minutes a day was being used 5 days a week, whatever the school ethos is. And AFAIK, it's being cut to 2 hrs per week for the "patron's programme" under the next revision of the primary curriculum .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118629439#Comment_118629439

Taking the case from the poster I was reply to, he said 1.5 hours.

Lunch was 1200 to 1230, religion was 1230 to 1330, the Protestants had an hour and a half for lunch

I'd argue that an hour is even a bit long for primary school kids, but if I recall you're a teacher, so probably in a better position than I am to say.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619291#Comment_118619291

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620623#Comment_118620623

Do you see a contradiction between your 2 posts?

byhookorbycrook

A non-fee paying school must stay within the DES time frame for breaks , so unless a school is starting earlier and closing later, they couldn’t have an hour at primary .

Generally 30 mins for lunch and 10 for for “ small lunch “ - though this was often stretched to 15 !

zom

"it really must grind their ideological gears that there still is a core of parents who wish their kids not to be guinea pigs for whatever the latest leftish fad is en vogue and instead enroll their kids in traditional schools which concentrate on treaching & education"

Different people support different ideologies - it is ok as long as they respect each other and this is the main problem.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620905#Comment_118620905

Try reading a post properly before jumping in. Of course there are co-educational schools in West Dublin. Just none where I live. Dublin is a big place.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118630240#Comment_118630240

No. There is no contradiction. There are no priests or nuns teaching in those schools any more but the principals are still members of religious orders and the "ethos" of the schools has become, if anything, even more catholic in recent years.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118627672#Comment_118627672

Starting in the 1960s there were huge changes in health and education in Quebec to bring about secularisation of state funded services and a separation of church and state. Things which are long overdue in this country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_revolution

As for supply and demand, where is the evidence that the Irish people demand that 89% of primary schools are controlled by the catholic church? It's nothing but an accident of history, a relic of when that church had the whole country by the balls. Meanwhile obtaining a place in an Educate Together school is, for most parents, impossible.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793058#Comment_118793058

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619291#Comment_118619291

What I took from your post is that you wanted a co-education by non-child-abusers, and you asked for your options to be outlined.

While nobody can guarantee you of any sort of an education by non-child-abusers unless you choose to provide the education yourself (and I was being fair in understanding that’s a non-runner for various reasons), I didn’t think it was unreasonable to expect there was a coeducational school in West Dublin. I was just suggesting an option that seemed reasonable. You’re choosing to shoot it down because you want a coeducational school where you live. I gather that’s not currently an option, and I don’t expect it will be an option by the time your children are finished their formal education.

Your options, like everyone else’s, requires consideration of a couple of different factors, some which are entirely reasonable, and some which are completely unreasonable. West Dublin is a big area, but I didn’t think it was unreasonable to suggest a school that wasn’t within a stones throw of your home.

Hotblack Desiato

You’re choosing to shoot it down because you want a coeducational school where you live.

You are being disingenuous and deflecting again.

It's entirely unreasonable that parents should have to send their kids out of their area to avoid religious indoctrination and the often-attendant sex discrimination - if they can even get a place in such a school when they live outside of its catchment area.

There are many places in Dublin which are "only a few miles" away but getting from that point A to that point B is impossible within any reasonable amount of time by car, never mind public transport.

How many hours a day spent ferrying kids to school is reasonable? What about the expense, congestion and pollution associated with these trips necessitated only because of the stranglehold of the church on our education system?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118793901#Comment_118793901

Whoa a second. I wasn’t being disingenuous or deflecting in my first response when I pointed out that there is a coeducational school in West Dublin. Granted I don’t know anything about the staff employed there but child abusers don’t tend to advertise the fact in any case, and that’s why I said nobody could guarantee you an education where you could avoid the risk of your children being exposed to being abused.

I thought you were referring specifically to what your options are, right now, not some 20 odd years into the future when there might be the possibility, albeit unlikely, that a school that ticks all the boxes for you would be established, let alone one that would tick all the boxes for children living in the area who will one day be sending their children to schools which will tick the boxes for them.

A four hour daily commute is only an unreasonable expectation if you’re willing to compromise on other criteria in order to enrol your children in a school closer to home, but you’re not, which is fair enough. I wouldn’t want to compromise on my child’s education either, so I don’t mind making whatever sacrifices are necessary to ensure my child receives an education which is consistent with my values. I’m just fortunate it doesn’t require a four hour commute, but if it did, I’d do that, because I know while I do have other options, I make no bones about the fact that in my view, they’re shìtty options.

I don’t think you’re being unreasonable, I do think you’re being unrealistic however about the options which are open to people given the current situation. I certainly wouldn’t be waiting on the DES to provide for the form of education I want for my child if it wasn’t already being provided for by the State. Some parents do that already, some parents don’t. I don’t presume to tell anyone else what their priorities should be for their own children’s education. I wouldn’t appreciate if it were me being told what I should prioritise in terms of my own child’s education, so I extend that same courtesy to others.

Hotblack Desiato

What an amazing load of completely irrelevant waffle.

Pawwed Rig

You would put your child through a 4 hour commute every day? That is cruel in the extreme. Better to have schools available in every neighbourhood No? The best way to do that is to provide exactly the same school everywhere (i.e an inclusive school for all with 1 syllabus

ILoveYourVibes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058232172/aodhan-o-riordain-wants-to-ban-single-sex-schools

I'm in a unique position in that i went to a single sexed school until the age of 15 and a co-ed school until 18. I much preferred the unisex school it felt more rounded. But that could have been the ethos of the school. Having been to four different schools during my childhood three single sexed and one co-ed the co-ed was the only school i truly liked. And it's not that i don't like girls at all. I really liked all the girls i went to school with. But i think the guys presence in the class brought a well rounded energy and interests into the class. Their contribution balanced things. Plus you could go back to your girl group later and they could go back to their guy group during lunch or whatever.

I would have to say though the Co-ed was a really diverse student body even beyond being co-ed though. So there was that too.

I think the idea that boys out shout the girls etc in the classroom is silly. (it's often used to advocate for single sexed schools).

Now having SAID all that.

There are too many different things that contribute to education to divide it along the lines of girls vrs boys. There are socio economic things and things like learning difficulties etc. School culture imo is the most important contributing factor. Followed by the attitude of parents and socio economic factors like class and earnings. These all way far more than single sexed vrs co - ed schools.

I dont think banning single sexed schools is a good idea. I think promotion and FUNDING of state schools and yes promotion of co - ed is much better. Underfunding affects schools much much more than whether they are co- ed or not.

The idea that turning all schools into co-ed is going to have a HUGE impact on education is optimistic and foolish tbh. If they are still going back into the same underfunded state schools it will make **** ALL difference and he knows it.