Aodhán Ó Ríordáin wants to ban single sex schools

Ballycommon Mast · 09-02-2022 3:56pm #1

I believe that if the "far right" ever take off in this country, it will be because of people like O'Riordain trying to force their ultra woke ideas on middle Ireland. https://www.thejournal.ie/labour-schools-education-5675662-Feb2022/

Witcher · 09-02-2022 4:04pm

This is one of the issues in politics, every TD wants a hobby horse policy they can say they introduced thinking they'll be today's Noël Browne. Whip up a furor about a vaguely topical non issue and away we go.

They see an 'in' and they just go for it.

Ballycommon Mast · 09-02-2022 4:07pm

I am surprised that Alan Kelly who I always thought was a down to earth Tipperary man is supporting this kind of nonsense

sprucemoose · 09-02-2022 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058232172/aodhan-o-riordain-wants-to-ban-single-sex-schools

Sorry but that is far from 'ultra woke', the notion that most of our public secondary schools aren't mixed is archaic and rooted in a Catholic fear of the opposite sex. We need to get with the times a bit here

09-02-2022 4:18pm

There are only a few countries with a higher percentage of kids in single sex schools, and they're not countries Irish people would naturally identify with.

Witcher · 09-02-2022 4:19pm

Finian McGrath tried similar a few years ago against legally held firearms. Thought he was leading some kind of anti gun charge and made a complete show of himself in front of an Oireachtas committee on it making all sorts of claims he couldn't back up. These people are shameless, they'll cast their lines and it there are no bites, sure go again.

Fidelma Healy Eames too, stoking the fires about the evils of the internet a few years ago and when she made a fool of herself pronouncing Wifi as Wiffy, tries to play it off as a French pronunciation. Then when she's rounded on as being clueless 'this is why we need regulation'.

As with most things here, the answer is never allow choice or offer alternatives, it's just 'ban it'. Great.

This is just another inoffensive policy being cast into the water to see if there are any takers, if it succeeds great, if it fails; nobody cared anyway.

As opposed to committing to a policy on health or justice which if it fails could end a career. These politicians want to do just enough to get over the next election hill but don't want to risk sticking their head too far over the parapet.

timmyntc · 09-02-2022 4:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606450#Comment_118606450

Theres no fear of the opposite sex, nor is there any legislation preventing mixed schools or hampering them in any way.

If single sex schools still exist, so what? Nobody is forcing parents or their children to attend them. They can always go to a mixed school instead.

seamus · 09-02-2022 4:21pm

Why is it "ultra woke"?

Single-sex schools serve no purpose. Why should children be segregated by gender in school when the rest of their life will involve no segregation at all? It's mental when you think about it. Even more mental that anyone would get worked up enough about defending it.

It's probably not the most burning of issues, but seems like a very easy one to sort, so why not. Children who attend mixed sex schools produce better socially-rounded adults. It also provides a lot more opportunities for individual children in terms of study. Many single-sex schools do not offer some subjects because of a lack of demand. Girls' schools often don't offer subjects like physics, applied maths or woodworking, while boys' schools may not offer music or a wide choice of languages.

There's a long-held belief that girls do better in single-sex schools, but modern data is not finding that this actually holds up. Previous studies were probably done in decades where girls in co-ed schools were routinely discriminated against and intimidated in school, resulting in poorer performance.

Ash.J.Williams · 09-02-2022 4:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058232172/aodhan-o-riordain-wants-to-ban-single-sex-schools

are you from Afghanistan?

KaneToad · 09-02-2022 4:23pm

I think this is one of the rare occasions that I agree with O'Ríordain.

Segregation by sex, in education, is a bizarre concept.

Ash.J.Williams · 09-02-2022 4:23pm

it would be interesting to see women in our Elitist schools and how it changes the system

Jequ0n · 09-02-2022 4:25pm

What’s woke about this?

I am not a fan of banning things but I can’t see a benefit to single sex schools.

growleaves · 09-02-2022 4:30pm

I see nothing wrong with single-sex schools so I can't understand the passionate hatred against them. It definitely touches on a nerve for a lot of people.

Notmything · 09-02-2022 4:32pm

Tbh I have no problem with this and don't get the "wokeness" claims.

Co-ed schools are not new and nobody was calling them woke when I attended one 20 years ago.

Ballycommon Mast · 09-02-2022 4:32pm

There are many many parents in Ireland who want a single sex education for their children. Back in the early 2010s when Ruairi Quinn was minister for education, he tried to make schools allow cheap generic uniforms but when parents were asked, the vast majority said leave the uniforms alone

09-02-2022 4:32pm

Obviously O Riordan is a massive populist nimby type politician but it doesn’t mean he’s wrong here. Usual boards stick to label something woke when it’s not agreed with.

Now maybe, ban is a strong word but schools are going the co Ed route anyway by necessity. Most new schools opening are co-ed and there will be more and more amalgamations in the future due to numbers etc. Any gaelscoileanna, ET schools, community schools are all co-educational. There might still be single sex schools in the bigger built up urban areas for a couple of more decades to cater for that parental choice if that’s what is wanted.

From a practical point of view, co-ed is a better model for secondary schools at the very least as it allows a school to offer much more subjects than your traditional Home Ec in the girls school, Woodwork in the boys school (not everywhere - I know there are lots of exceptions to this).

Not sure on the complete research but it can’t be good for one gender not to be socialising with the other one til they’re 12 or 18? I know when I was in college, the research was there that boys fare better in co educational schools than in all boys schools and I’ve experienced enough to agree with that.

Strumms · 09-02-2022 4:35pm

Think of the cost of just adapting boys schools to include female bathrooms…or visa versa…you could be talking 50,000 per school at minimum to provide two or three more toilets..

731 secondary schools..

that’s roughly…

36.5 million…. Just for bathroom adaptations and building additional ones…

great value for the taxpayers…. Anyone on a hospital waiting list will be thrilled with that little doozy….

growleaves · 09-02-2022 4:41pm

'Obviously O Riordan is a massive populist nimby type politician but it doesn’t mean he’s wrong here. Usual boards stick to label something woke when it’s not agreed with.'

Perhaps but I recall O Riordan saying a few years ago that single-sex schools were "barbarism".

There's a difference between saying well co-educational schools are better because x, y and z and framing it as some kind of acrimonious crusade.

O Riordan has also talked bitterly about his own school days. He fell out with the whole school or something like that.

tjhook · 09-02-2022 4:50pm

If somebody was to ask whether or not parents should have a choice to send their child to a mixed school rather than single-sex, I think nearly everybody would say "Yes, it should be an available choice".

Surely the same should go for the reverse. Why remove the choice?

Some people seem to think It's fine to deny others a choice because they know better.

Jequ0n · 09-02-2022 4:50pm

@Ballycommon Mast

“There are many many parents in Ireland who want a single sex education for their children”

Fair enough, but why? What are the concerns?

growleaves · 09-02-2022 4:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606648#Comment_118606648

Good question but then we should also ask what are the concerns of the people who want to ban these schools and seemingly view them with extreme, unexplained bitterness.

Jequ0n · 09-02-2022 5:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606681#Comment_118606681

Yes of course. As stated above I am not a fan of banning things.

Having grown up in a country in which most schools are mixed I cannot see what the concerns would be. To me it just seems perfectly natural to have girls and boys “grow up” together in the same school.

I am genuinely curious in the discussion.

09-02-2022 5:06pm

I have to laugh.. no, really I do.

Boys and girls learn differently. They respond better to different types of teaching formats/disciplines in their lessons. Since mixed schools have become all the rage, we've seen a massive drop in the success rates of male students. In the last decade or so, there was enormous pressure to bring into effect teaching that would improve female student success rates, but that, in turn, affected the success of male students who didn't respond as well to that shift in focus. (although there's little real concern about those falling grades for boys)

Single sex schools offer the chance to have teaching formats that are aimed specifically at each gender. That's why they're a good idea.

Fandymo · 09-02-2022 5:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606648#Comment_118606648

Two of my mates went to all male schools. We were talking with one set of parents on a night out a while ago and asked what made them send him to an all male school. Their reasoning was that there would be less distractions with no females to be flirting with or showing off to while in school. No doey eyes across the classroom to his little girlfriend, or not wanting to go into school and have to see them after a break up. Which I think is reasonable enough.

breezy1985 · 09-02-2022 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606483#Comment_118606483

Well in some areas parents are forced to send their kids because there are not other options.

Also you have schools like in Caherdavin in Limerick which are right next door to each other. Literally next door but because they are single sex the state have to pay out for double of everything.

The idea this is "woke" shows how pathetically sad and Americanised some people have become.

Chips Lovell · 09-02-2022 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606483#Comment_118606483

That's a bit misleading. It's like saying nobody is forcing you to send your kids to a Catholic school. The reality is that, in many areas, you've the choice between sending your kids to a single sex school or driving them some distance to a mixed school that few of the other local kids are going to.

tjhook · 09-02-2022 5:10pm

I don't think it matters why a parent chooses to send a child to either a mixed- or single-sex school. They can and will do either today if they want to do the best for their child. It's arrogant for a person to go out of their way to deny them that choice by banning single-sex schools. If you want to choose one or other for your child, who am I to say "No, you shouldn't have that choice - I know what's better for your child".

timmyntc · 09-02-2022 5:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606740#Comment_118606740

They are hardly paying for double of everything - were the schools to be merged, there wouldnt be massive amount of redundancy. Classrooms and staff are all necessary to cater for the number of students. Thats hardly going to change if you double both the students and the staff.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606744#Comment_118606744

The same argument could be made for sending children to a single sex school or gaelscoil either. Outright bans just limit people's choice.

breezy1985 · 09-02-2022 5:21pm

Out of curiosity why do people who like same sex schools choose them ?

mikethecop · 09-02-2022 5:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606408#Comment_118606408

satire ? or you really actually had some faith left in alan kelly ?

sprucemoose · 09-02-2022 5:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606483#Comment_118606483

Maybe not now, but I'd be fairly sure part of the reason for the prevalence of single sex schools in the past was that teenagers couldnt be trusted with the opposite sex. Catholic guilt and all that.

Fee paying schools should be allowed to do what they want, but public schools should be mixed. You say nobody is forcing children to attend single sex schools but as many others have also pointed out, in lots of places in Ireland there is simply no other option. In my local town, the options were to go to either of the single sex schools or to the mixed vocational school. Unfortunately that meant there really wasn't much of a choice if a student had any sort of academic interest, the single sex schools were the only option

FunLover18 · 09-02-2022 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606726#Comment_118606726

This is usually the most common reason given for why people prefer same sex schools and it's certainly one of the main reasons the church who were responsible for such institutions decided to segregate based on gender. It's old fashioned and it doesn't even make sense. The world is not segregated by gender and schools are meant to prepare children from the world, segregating them for a representative of 50% of the population makes no sense. It's also massively unfair on the children, flirting and getting distracted by the opposite sex is part of the experience and removing the opposite sex isn't going to act as some form of hormone blocker. I don't think an outright ban is necessary but we should be doing more to decrease the number of same sex schools.

growleaves · 09-02-2022 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606937#Comment_118606937

You haven't given any reasons in your post why public schools should be mixed, you've just said they should be.

Starfire20 · 09-02-2022 6:11pm

A previous poster talked about how more recent studies have shown that co-ed schools produce better results and more socially-rounded individuals.

thats good enough for me.

Gatling · 09-02-2022 6:17pm

He also wants to reduce the age when someone can legally change their gender,

He seems to working his way down the list of woke agendas .

What harm is same sex schools causing

Starfire20 · 09-02-2022 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607095#Comment_118607095

i guess everything the right doesn't like is woke now?

and please don't conflate sex and gender as the same thing, cause they're not.

09-02-2022 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606948#Comment_118606948

It's old fashioned and it doesn't even make sense.

Except it does.

Do a google search on single-sex schools outperforming co-ed schools, and you'll find a rake of research papers talking about it. It comes down to the differences in boys/girls learning styles, but also that single-sex schools tend to hire teachers to match their students gender. Male teachers being able to understand the needs of boy students and female students meeting the needs of girl students. That's not to say that female teachers can't teach male students (and vice versa), but typically, there is a greater connection between students and teachers where the gender matches, and that results in better learning outcomes for the students. If a teacher is a crap teacher, that isn't going to help, but with teachers who care about their students, often a male teacher with a male student can form a better connection, than that of a female teacher.

There are heaps of reasons listed as to why single-sex schools typically outperform co-ed schools, and that's been shown in research in many countries from S. Korea through to the US.

The purpose of school is to learn effectively, not to mingle with the opposite gender, and in fact, you'll find that many students have very limited contact with the opposite gender in co-ed schools, simply due to the dynamics of childrens development, and the fears many of them have. In any case, in any kind of populated area with a variety of single-sex schools, students get to meet each other after school, or through a range of activities organised by the schools themselves. I went to a single-sex school, and that didn't stop me from meeting girls after school. My secondary school was mixed, and quite honestly, my interactions with girls was limited, due to the circles of friendships that formed, and simply that the two genders tend to gravitate towards those of their own gender to form groups.

Posters here seem dedicated to ignore the simple fact that single-sex schools are better for the students in terms of learning... and it's questionable just how much interaction that most boys/girls have with each other in such schools, and whether they won't get the same from extra-curricular activities.

Gatling · 09-02-2022 6:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607113#Comment_118607113

What.

Starfire20 · 09-02-2022 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607134#Comment_118607134

was there a question there ?

Gatling · 09-02-2022 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607141#Comment_118607141

Just something about the right......

Didn't mention the right but hey !

sprucemoose · 09-02-2022 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606969#Comment_118606969

I mean, others have posted ad nauseam as to why they should be so I didn't think it was needed, but fine:

Allowing more varied subject choices, developing a healthier ability to interact with the opposite sex, less doubling up of resources/teachers etc in smaller towns (most likely but this would depend on specific locations I'll admit, but in general), lessening stereotype of certain subjects being 'gendered'........

That's just to name a few, I'm sure there are many more others. I can't honestly think of any reasons to continue with single sex schools apart from that's just the way things currently are. And that's not really a good enough reason

Starfire20 · 09-02-2022 6:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607152#Comment_118607152

yeah, it's typically conservative people, whether that's socially conservative or fiscally, that complain about any change in society.

Gatling · 09-02-2022 6:36pm

But if people want to send their childrens to a same sex schools then they have to be accommodated ,?

Will the same be applied to religious ethos schools ?

09-02-2022 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607160#Comment_118607160

I suspect you can't be bothered to think about it at all. I can think of dozens of reasons immediately off the top of my head. I could do the same for co-ed schools.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Gatling · 09-02-2022 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607162#Comment_118607162

Unlike the woken who only think the world should only be viewed based off their opinions only

Starfire20 · 09-02-2022 6:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607170#Comment_118607170

surely religious indoctrination can be done outside of school hours or by the parents themselves if it's that important ?

personally, i think schools should not have any religion pushed.

Tell me how · 09-02-2022 6:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058232172/aodhan-o-riordain-wants-to-ban-single-sex-schools

I believe it will be because people who feel aggrieved at their standing or current status in life for some reason or another will be easily manipulated by those with an agenda to punch down at a supposed enemy instead of considering what they could do to help themselves in whatever way possible.

09-02-2022 6:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118607162#Comment_118607162

Being conservative doesn't exclude you from supporting social change. The difference is that conservatives typically want to see some sound planning, research, and want to know the consequences involved in such a change. Non-conservatives are very quick to make changes, and assume "ahh sure, it'll be grand". The complaining that occurs is because often, change is implemented based on feelings rather than sound logic.

I'm generally quite a conservative person in my views, although as with most people, it's the issue itself that concerns me, rather than a label to categorise all my interests and concerns.

As with most things related to people, there's all manner of conservatives... they're not a one-fit group. Which is natural as people tend to become conservative as they age, and while they might have been progressive or other in their early years, their experience tempers the movements they're willing to support later in life.