Aodhán Ó Ríordáin wants to ban single sex schools

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118615237#Comment_118615237

I think the thread has veered off course into a religion/anti religion debate.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616466#Comment_118616466

I remember back in the day we used to laugh at the Brits for jumping on educational fads and generally wrecking their ed system, meanwhile the Irish system warts and all seemed to work quite well and was able to market it abroad to invest in Ireland

Pawwed Rig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616191#Comment_118616191

That may be but often do not have the subsequent contacts to be successful in the grown up world thereby not getting as far as others with those contacts. Equally the norms of single sex schools do not lend themselves to a tranquil work place.

I am amazed that in 2022 we still segregate children based on gender, parents religion and parents ability to speak Irish. The Saudis would be proud of us.

What is even more amazing is that anyone would argue for it.

The most discriminated person in the State is a 5 year old starting school.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616443#Comment_118616443

Good grief 😳

I was simply using the example of the State favouring Christianity over Islam as an example. The example wasn’t meant to suggest the State actually does that.

As for the rest of it, I’ve said from the get-go in trying to understand your point that the State is obligated to provide for education. Whether that education is religious or not is not a matter for the State. The Constitution acknowledges the right of parents to make that determination for their own children as to what school their own children will attend to avail of the education provided by the education provider.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616466#Comment_118616466

How on earth is it progressive or a leftist fad to have your kids in a school which represents normal, everyday life?

How bizarre.

Single sex schools are abnormal and unnatural. But don't worry, I'm sure they won't be going anywhere.

stellamere

I went to an all boys school and my kids are in a mixed school. I think they are better socialised and more rounded than I ever was at that age. It's great to see them make friends with girls and boys.

However, its up to parents how they want to raise and educate their children. Wouldn't be a big fan of banning things, each to their own, within reason.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616655#Comment_118616655

Conservatism isn't about being happy. It's about results. Happiness is a bonus.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616329#Comment_118616329

implied🙄 you have a right to an education and the right to choose a religious one, you have no right to a state funded religious education. that the state pays the way of church administered schools doesn't change this.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616466#Comment_118616466

you seem bitter about something. let it out, we are here for you.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616655#Comment_118616655

It’s neither progressive nor a leftist fad to have your children in a school which represents normal, everyday life. That’s not what is being referred to, because that would equally apply to parents who want their children in single-sex schools, which clearly aren’t outdated as they still exist, and more to the point private schools which are single-sex are becoming more popular. That’s not what was being referred to in any case.

What was being referred to is ideas such as Aodhán’s to try and get religion out of Irish schools, emulating a model of education in the UK which also tried to undo single-sex education (Ireland inherited the single-sex education model from the British, as did Australia and the other British colonies) in favour of a more liberal co-education model popular in Europe which focused more on the Arts than technical subjects - the French education system would be a good example. As one parent put it - she moved to Ireland as we have a better education system than the French, which endeavours to turn out little philosophers. I always liked the French education system myself, but I could see her point.

It didn’t work out well for the Labour Party in the UK is the point, any more than those sorts of ‘progressive’ ideas (quotes because I don’t think trying to limit parents choices for their children’s education is actually particularly progressive tbh) worked out for the Labour Party in Ireland.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616740#Comment_118616740

Conservatism, explained from a liberal perspective 🤔

NickNickleby

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606486#Comment_118606486

I'm surprised that you got 45 thanks for suggesting that my sons, my daughter, my wife and I (having all attended same sex schools) are less socially well rounded than others. Presumably you can back this up with something. I'm not having a go at you, but given the number of very well rounded adults I know, including those who went to school with my kids, I'm finding it hard to believe I'm so lucky. (I don't know anyone of my generation who went to mixed schools - although there were some around).

When I was choosing schools for my children, the decision was based on word of mouth. I wanted schools with a good ethos - focused on producing well educated, well rounded and importantly responsible young adults (the latter obviously be more about second level). The fact that the schools were single sex at second level was not a consideration, one way or the other. No one said "oh don't send your kids to that school , its same or mixed sex (insert rationalisation here)".

To my mind Aodhan O Riordan is trying to fix something that just isn't broken. No surprise there , though.

Edit. I have struck out the very confrontational sentence. Seamus always makes good points without being snippy about it. So should I - yes, yes , who ever accused me of making good points??? I also added context in italics.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118616881#Comment_118616881

I really don’t get the distinction, or the point you’re trying to make to be honest. The point as far as the State is concerned isn’t whether or not an education provider is religious or not, the point is that they are providing education. That’s what they receive funding for.

In any case, I’ll simply refer you back to Article 42 of the Irish Constitution:

1: The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2: Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State. 

3.1°:The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State. 

3.2°:The State shall, however, as guardian of the common good, require in view of actual conditions that the children receive a certain minimum education, moral, intellectual and social. 

4:The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118617031#Comment_118617031

You can keep quoting article 42 all you want. It doesn't give you a right to state funded religious education. It's why you had to revert to it being "implied". And now seem to be going of on a tangent about funding for some reason.

I have no doubt you can see the distinctions between the right to an education, the right to choose a religious one and not having a right to a state funded religious education, you just pretend not to.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118618155#Comment_118618155

In just the same way, you can keep telling me that parents do not have a right to religious education for their children funded by the State, but I know that’s simply not true.

It’s a weasel worded effort to suggest that parents do not have the right to be supported by the State in providing for their children’s education, because they want a religious education for their children. Parents do have the right to a State funded religious education for their children, and by that same token, parents also have the right to a State funded NON-religious education for their children.

I didn’t revert to implied, it’s how articles 42 and 44 have been interpreted by the Irish Courts. I was trying to understand where PB was coming from because they appeared to be making a point, but in the end it turned out to be nothing, and it’s becoming clear that you intend to go down the same route.

I’m not going off on a tangent about funding when your point is an attempt to suggest that parents do not have the right to a State funded religious education for their children. It’s quite clear that State funding is a fundamental aspect of whatever point you’re making when you try to tell me that in your opinion, parents have no right to State funded religious education.

I’m absolutely not interested in breaking your balls and pretending I don’t see your point. I genuinely don’t see your point, because you don’t have one, and all the weasel wording in the world isn’t going to help you make a credible argument. I’ll go with numerous decisions by Irish Courts on the matter of provision by the State for religious education.

I’d also tell you that rather than you having a point, you’re overlooking the fact that the State is failing in an equal obligation to provide for the education of children who are not religious. Parents who are not religious, have the same rights as parents who are religious, to a State funded education for their children, in accordance with their philosophical or world views.

This paper provides a good overview IMO of education and religion in the context of the Irish Constitution -

https://www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/download/doc/gerry_whyte_paper_on_religion_and_education.doc

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118606483#Comment_118606483

I live in a large west Dublin suburb. There is one secondary school run by a bunch of priests with a history of physically and sexually abusing kids. There is another secondary school run by an order of nuns with a history of physically and emotionally abusing kids. I want co-education by non-child-abusers please. Outline my options.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118618768#Comment_118618768

Except you don't "know". To know you would have evidence of such a right. Yet you claim it is implied🙄.

Care to highlight these court cases that established a right to a state funded religious education.

Where in the paper does it mention a right to a state funded religious education.

You can only deflect from establishing the existence of this right for so long.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619476#Comment_118619476

I do know? I’ve just explained to you how I know that parents have a right to be supported by the State in the education of their children, and why it’s in the interests of the common good of society for the State to support parents in exercising this right, and why it’s in the interests of society that there is not a one-size-fits-all system of education. As I explained already - it doesn’t just apply to parents who want to provide a religious education for their children, it also equally applies to parents who want an education for their children with no involvement of religion, and I pointed out that the State is failing in it’s duty to support parents who want their children educated according to their values.

What you seem to want to believe is the same as numbnuts O Riordan that the State should deprive parents of State support in the education of their children. National education policies are about more than just State funding, and I really detest the idea that people are stupid, but it’s difficult to avoid making that association with certain individuals, particularly when they come out with the sort of stupid notions like O Riordan has in mind.

circadian

Someone suggests a change = ultra woke.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619503#Comment_118619503

We are talking about a right to a state funded religious education not an education. You really need to keep on point. Your attempts to pivot on to education in general something I wasn't talking about isn't going to work.

I didn't say anything about removing state support for education.

Again you have no right to a state funded religious education.

I see you declined to provide an example of these court cases you were talking about🤔 or any other evidence for that matter. Why is that?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619291#Comment_118619291

By your logic. you don't have any options. As the State run schools have a history physically and emotionally abusing kids. You could look at what teachers are at the school, and whether they're suitable, as opposed to lumping every school (and teacher, regardless of their religion) into a category that allows stereotyping of abuse.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619610#Comment_118619610

Your point doesn’t make any sense.

I’m talking about education, you want to narrow that down to religious education, which is only one form of education, albeit the most prevalent form of education in the State, where education is subsidised by public funds, and where the State recognises the right of parents to provide education for their children in schools recognised by the State which, by virtue of the fact that they are recognised by the State, qualify for public funding.

I don’t know what you’re talking about because I thought you were attempting to argue that the State does not have a duty to provide for education, which is the only way that it could happen that religious schools would be deprived of public funding, and further that the State would prohibit parents from exercising their rights under article 42. You’re telling me that’s not what you’re arguing, so what IS the point you’re trying to get at?

The cases referred to in the document I provided -

Campaign to Separate Church and State Ltd v Minister for Education [1998] 3 IR 321, [1998] 2 ILRM 81

Greally v Minister for Education (No 2) [1999] 1 IR 1, [1999] 2 ILRM 296

Crowley v Ireland, [1980] IR 102

O’Shiel v Minister for Education, [1999] 2 IR 321, [1999] 2 ILRM 241

Flynn v Power [1985] ILRM 336

Employment Equality Bill 1996 [1997] 2 IR 321

Quinn’s Supermarket Ltd v Attorney General [1972] IR 1

McGrath and Ó Ruairc v Trustees of Maynooth College [1979] ILRM 166

Mulloy v Minister for Education, [1975] IR 88

I provided the examples of the cases I was referring to in the document, so it’s unreasonable for you to suggest you didn’t see the evidence that supported my argument that the State has a duty to provide for education, irrespective of whether it’s religious education or not, and the State has a duty to support parents in the education of their children. The State doesn’t have any control over the type of education parents choose for their children, but it does have a duty to support them, and it does so in part by using public funds to provide for education.

Now, what’s your point, because I refuse to believe it’s as idiotic as pointing out that the Constitution does not explicitly state that ‘parents have the right to a State funded religious education for their children’. It’s why I said that the right is implied (as opposed to explicitly stated), because that’s the way the Constitution has been interpreted by Irish Courts.

I’m still refusing to believe you’re stupid as O Riordan, hell I refuse to believe he’s even as stupid as he makes out (he has a BA in history and Irish from UCD and completed a HDip in Primary Education at Marino, and those qualifications aren’t handed out to low academic achievers), so I don’t know whether it’s just that you’re intentionally being obtuse, or whether you really just don’t have any point to make at all.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619507#Comment_118619507

Out of the horse's mouth O Riordain said the point of the change is to stymie 'male privilege' so presumably he thinks this will worsen educational outcomes for boys.

That sounds like a totally corrupt motivation to me.

Its 'ultra woke' because we're destroying/banning institutions to achieve a levelling effect in society to advance leftist ideology.

Well said ..no distractions ect...the benefits far outweigh any PC crap they try to shove down our throats .if something works....there's no reason to change it

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619943#Comment_118619943

Nothing wrong with equality.

Is there any evidence to suggest boys do better than girls when mixed-sex schools are taken out of the equations, though? Think someone posted something, can't remember.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619980#Comment_118619980

This is just as stupid. Throwing labels like "woke" or "PC" at things before even thinking about the actual ideas presented.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620115#Comment_118620115

Well there is something wrong with deliberately disadvantaging and demoralising boys/men just so you can turn around and say that girls/women are now 'equal'. Its a totally negative and cynical way of doing things. Its a demolition job.

Men/boys already commit suicide in droves. The combination of female-boosterism and male-vilification in Irish life is pathetic and reaches into everything.

Yes someone posted something to that effect. The teaching methods are favoured towards girls. But in any case O Riordain seems to believe it since that's what his policy is based on. Even if he's gotten the wrong end of the stick he's working from bad motivations it appears.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620178#Comment_118620178

True - he's got to prove that there's an advantage AND that it's unfair in the first place - but if there is - then I'd go with the reform.

I'd see any advantage as being more class-based then gender-based though.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118620402#Comment_118620402

I do see where O Riordan is coming from alright, but I think his proposals by means of addressing what he sees as numerous issues in Irish society and the education system is neither feasible nor realistic. His ideas for social and education reform immediately falter at the first hurdle because they are reliant on buy-in from everyone in the community and taking account for the dynamics of each individual school -

If we were to set a target of desegregating all our primary schools in the next 10 years, with community buy-in and taking account for the dynamics of each individual school, what would be the case against it?

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-its-time-to-abolish-single-sex-schools-3787897-Jan2018/?amp=1

(article was written by O Riordan in 2018)

The current Minister for Education Norma Foley and Minister of State for Special Education and Inclusion Josepha Madigan are way ahead of him in terms of reform of the education system by addressing the class-based issues which you may be referring to, having secured the largest ever increase in funding for the DEIS programme in the last budget -

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/9679f-ministers-foley-and-madigan-announce-details-of-92-billion-education-funding-in-budget-2022-including-measures-to-tackle-disadvantage-and-support-children-with-special-educational-needs/

Almost one in four of the country’s 4,000 schools is currently covered by Deis, which has been shown to have a positive effect in tackling educational disadvantage, particularly from interventions for junior classes.

Ms Foley said the Deis expansion, extra funding for special education, and the reduction in the pupil/teacher ratio for primary schools announced in the Budget were about striving for an education system that was “all centre and no margin”.

She added: “I believe in my heart and from my own experience that that must be our aspiration and more than that, that it must be our absolute achievement in education, that there is a place for every child to succeed to be the very best version of who they are.”

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/hundreds-of-extra-schools-will-get-access-to-deis-supports-says-minister-40947308.html

That’s real education reform, as opposed to just pie in the sky nonsense that gets a few likes on social media.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118619783#Comment_118619783

Whatever about the religious orders (there are none left teaching now) the point is that there is no co-educational school. Education in this country is stuck in the 19th century.

TheValeyard

No need for single sex schooling really.