DF Commission Report

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991006#Comment_118991006

Like I said, first step is to stop DOD from returning any increase unspent, you know they will want to.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118990967#Comment_118990967

The MRV, transport does increase the capabilities though, limited as they might be, hell maybe someone could even manage to order helicopters that are capable of operating outside of Ireland?

tippilot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991018#Comment_118991018

It would be a start. This "large increase" that will take "years to implement" line smacks of a Yes, Minister type pining for a change of government.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991042#Comment_118991042

It does doesn't it, I mean even just a basic €100 million a year matched with Inflation growth would take only 5 years, is anyone seriously going to suggest that couldn't be managed? Hell just fixing conditions would eat a couple of years of that growth before you even touch new hardware contracts.

Leonidas BL

https://twitter.com/StiofainR/status/1519793860666445824?s=20&t=pvMpjTFlV07mxS3wYf1RPA

Neutral my hole 😅

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118991087#Comment_118991087

Even if we were, do you think it would stop them? Hell they reportedly flew a couple of nukes through Swedish airspace recently.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993275#Comment_118993275

They’ve been careful to limit the threat to the strategic bombers, most likely as they are almost irreplaceable for Russia so there’s a chance. Hell maybe they could do the DF a favour and turn up a lot when Coveney is presenting his proposals to Cabinet, didn’t hurt to get attention in February.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993231#Comment_118993231

Just wait until they might get asked to go to sea again…

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118993275#Comment_118993275

They must be in bad shape the fact they havent flown the western flank of europe since the start of the war to just be a pest even

sparky42

The latest from the IT:

An increase in military spending as recommended by the recent Commission on the Defence Forces is unlikely to be completed until at least 2025.

Last February the commission reported that the Defence Forces were not currently capable of credibly defending the country against attack, and put forward various proposals for increased funding.

The most ambitious proposals, which it called Level of Ambition 3, called for a three-fold increase in defence spending, bringing it to €3 billion a year and roughly in line with other small European countries.

It also put forward in intermediate proposal, Level of Ambition 2, which would address urgent capability gaps and allow for some limited upgrades. Minister for Defence Simon Coveney has said he will deliver his recommendation to Cabinet next month.

Defence sources said the option currently being considered is a “Level of Ambition 2.5”. The Minister would recommend adopting most, if not all, of the recommendations in Level of Ambition 2, while picking some of those laid out in the most ambitious proposal.

This would see the Defence Forces receiving hugely increased cyber capabilities and a primary radar system which would allow it to monitor effectively Irish skies for the first time.

It would also receive increased air lift capacity, improved armoured personnel carriers and an increase in numbers in the Naval Service to allow ships to spend more time at sea.

However, the purchase of a squadron of jet fighters, as recommended in Level of Ambition 3, is not being considered, it is understood. This would mean Britain’s RAF would still be responsible for responding to any airborne incursion over Ireland.

The proposals would cost between €600 million and €1 billion extra a year, it was estimated.

The plan is to gradually ramp up defence spending over the next several years. Sources said it will be at least 2025 before this funding level is achieved.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/increase-in-defence-spending-likely-to-take-at-least-three-years-1.4866904

jonnybigwallet

Ah well...Not very good news for the "Air Force", who will have to struggle on with a small squadron of propeller driven trainers. Meanwhile the ""Navy" look like they are going to receive 2 second hand light customs cutters and a small car ferry with a 20mm forward gun to ferry the army around. Great result all round.

purplepanda

In the run up to the outbreak of World War II, there was at least an excuse of insufficient national finance available to strengthen the defence forces under the De Valera government. However this time, "the context in which we are having this political debate – war in Europe" to quote Simon Coveney, there is certainly not the same valid excuse. Playing the poor mouth won't be very convincing in this era.

For example taxes can be levelled on those multinational companies that pay very low taxes on historical profits Ireland. A modest tourist / visitor tax could be charged. The country can certainly afford to upgrade the defence budget to previous levels as was spent during the 1980's & 1990's.

Since the Americans are introducing a modern version of WW2's Lend Lease Program, Ireland should be asking for financial help to contribute to the defence & policing of the Atlantic Ocean / Western European regions. Representation should be made to our European partner nations financial help & also relevant military resources, even any previous used modern equipment can be useful at this stage.

Britain & the United States in particular might be able to supply military aid, particularly maritime & aviation equipment which are vital for Ireland to quickly strengthen its military capability.

Achieving the outcome recommended in the DF Commision report in a couple of decades, if ever, is certainly not good enough in the current world crisis.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004342#Comment_119004342

3 years is not bad at all if they get extra APCs, Radar, Ships and crew along with helicopters when you consider tenders and time it takes to deliver. I know builders waiting 9 months for just vans

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004575#Comment_119004575

Indeed, and somehow people seem to be forgetting that the LoA3 suggestions were built on LoA2 happening and a sustained period of such investment in people and equipment before moving to more roles under LoA3. If tomorrow morning we jumped to 3 billion and ordered a couple of dozen fighters the DF simply couldn’t absorb such budgets or operate the high end equipment. We need time to build, and 600m-1 billion a year in no small matter.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004510#Comment_119004510

There was more in play than just finances, there was also training, even if we jumped to buying a **** load of new equipment tomorrow, where do you think the people to use it will be? It’s a couple of years for trained fighter pilots to transition from WP fighters to Western fighters and operate them proficiently, we don’t even have those pilots for anything, same applies for the Navy. The Army with its larger manpower is in a better position but still would need time to build up for more capable roles and will have to get in line behind other nations that have ordered equipment as well.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119004439#Comment_119004439

That’s right Johnny, the SSNs, and Stealth fighters got cancelled…

jonnybigwallet

Even my more modest and affordable suggestions of the KAI or the wee Italian job never make it off the wish list. And there was me thinkin Simon might be up for doin something significant. Shame. Nowt happening now for a long time methinks.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119005504#Comment_119005504

They were never on the list in the first place thankfully, and plenty will happen if the budgets see the increase reported.

Grassy Knoll

Seems to be going as far as he can without getting into the fast jets at this point. Managing and utilising this level of additional investment will be challenging given the low base of manpower and capability that currently exist, so to be fair it is a decent response from government - assuming it materialises. Several of the defence facilities are so under developed they will have challenges handling a surge in new equipment and staff. Certainly if matched with improvements in t&c it could present an exciting career opportunity for young women and men in the next few years.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119006370#Comment_119006370

Given the lead time for procurement, imo ideally the first steps in investment would be in the T&Cs and in the base facilities (particularly Haulbowline if we are going to grow to double crews and a Ranger deployment to the base), while the new equipment starts through the tendering process.

roadmaster

With LOA 2 looking likely we may be seeing extra troop helicopters. Anyone dare to take a guess what we will get ? Are we looking at sticking with the Italians and going for 189s or 101s, The french for carcels or NH90s?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119010400#Comment_119010400

I’m going to go with a couple more 139s hopeful the military spec ones though. I can’t see them adding a new type if it’s meant to augment the existing fleet. Though if I had the choice I’d jump to the recommendation of the 8 super mediums instead and keep the 6 139s for the current jobs.

jonnybigwallet

Don't think an overwhelming surge would even happen if fast jets were ordered this year. Deliveries would be phased over several years. Probably 2 to 4 per annum. Anyway....It ain't happening now in my lifetime. Government is too stingy.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119010795#Comment_119010795

Yep, they actually refused to order any just to annoy you.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119011221#Comment_119011221

In Fairness to the Italians if the irish lads closed the doors correctly they might not fall off!

Between the ARW , air corps and maybe even somehow naval helicopters for the size of the total helicopter fleetto be bought would we not be better off with one type only for trainning and spares

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119011221#Comment_119011221

They want it, but unless that's part of the "2.5" its not going to happen? If they did get them I don't see why the Navy shouldn't get a couple as well for the MRV. That being said I'm still putting my money on more 139's as I said hopefully the M variant.

donvito99

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/simon-coveney-ireland-will-not-be-joining-nato-any-time-soon-1.4881180

More momentum towards an extra €500m "a year" indicated.

Focus at the moment would appear to be an establishment of 2,044 for the "Navy" and primary radar + strategic lift for the "Air Force".

roadmaster

I wonder what they consider Strategic lift ?

All the stories recently about the governmemt jet could they be angling for an A321LR like the german air force that can do Vip,cargo and troops along with maybe 2 extra casas for donkey work

Brenatron100

Leaving aside the terminology, which can get grey enough for smaller militaries, we need an aircraft type which will fulfill most of our needs, most of the time. It has to have high utility, reliability and durability, but we will never need anything like an A400M or larger.

C-295 73 troops, ~7 tonnes, very light vehicles.

C-27J 60 troops, ~12 tonnes, light/medium vehicles

C-130J 92 troops, ~20 tonnes, 3 x LTAVs or 1 x APC

With the wild unknowns of inflation, supply chain and materials shortages mess, any of the 3 above will be in the €50 million per unit ball park in a basic transport layout, assuming a second hand C-130J could be sourced from a careful previous and friendly owner.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081354#Comment_119081354

It would be a miracle for the DOD to move fast enough before those airframes are snatched up by someone else.

Brenatron100

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119081354#Comment_119081354

Indeed.

The US bought an earlier RAF disposal for just 29 million dollars. Though I'm sure that's a price among those of a very special relationship.

roadmaster

The HSE Munster HEMS can the air corps tender for that as a state body or the fact that its being tendered mean the Air Corps dont want or have the capacity to do it?

Larbre34

No, the Air Corps can't tender for anything as its not a competent authority for financial matters, the Dept of Defence is the only one that could.

But its obvious enough that the Air Corps scarcely has the resources to maintain the fixed and rotary wing services for which it is already responsible, let alone taking on new ones, especially ones requiring a new base and support infrastructure.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089516#Comment_119089516

Not too mention you get back into the argument as to what the AC should actually be doing…

roadmaster

In CoDF the HSE spoke in favour of the Air Corps continuing HEMS so thats why was wondering why they tendered for the south. Maybe the the air corps will give up on 112 and the contractor in the south could provide a base for the northern end of the country based out of maybe Knock or even Abbeyshrule which would be very central. An that would free up the fleet for Army duties

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119090594#Comment_119090594

Not necessarily. Having being involved in various public sector projects where one Agency or Authority performed a task or operation on behalf of another, the Service Level Agreement more often than not includes a cost to the customer party. Its a net zero consequence to the exchequer, sure, but the HSE will have a budget line for it.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119089693#Comment_119089693

Oh absolutely. In my own humble opinion, the Air Corps shouldn't be next or near Air Ambulance or SAR work, except for DF personnel in service or as an ACP in case of major incident or large scale emergency.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119091173#Comment_119091173

Why have the DOD not being charging?

Larbre34

According to the most recent DoD Annual Report, the appendix list of SLAs does mention several with the DoH and specifically the HSE for the Air Ambulance. If the DoD haven't been charging the net economic cost of this service, at the very least, then the Accounting Officer and her staff have very serious questions to answer.

roadmaster

Are the DOJ being charged landing fees, Hangarage and crew fees for GASU?

donvito99

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2022/0520/1300136-russia-ukraine-war-ireland-defence-forces-nato-eu/

This is a great piece which confronts a lot of the points trotted out in defence of the status quo:

- Concept that we're safe because we're netural is "illiterate";

- That we are now threatened thanks to globalisation and exposure to cyber/data;

- That other countries will come to our aid is "cynical and quaint".

roadmaster

The messing over state sites that is coming out today around housing i would say not only is CB days numbered McKee should be looking over there shoulders

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119185655#Comment_119185655

I would not be suprised if the Garda bosses had there eye on Mckee for them selfs

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119186406#Comment_119186406

When they where looking for a replacement site for harcourt street did they ever look at McKee?

roadmaster

I see Former FG TD Naughton is talking up Athlone being Army HQ in the article attached below.

But Since this country is built on Parish Pump Politics and the no.1 aim of a TD is to get reelected is there any chance that the 2 mullingar based Ministers who dont have any real votes in Athlone would try and get Mullingar Barracks reopened an made Army HQ with Athlone getting the chop. I know the LDA are looking to redevelop the barracks but i believe there is a lot of locals against this

Would a stroke for votes be pulled like this?

https://www.westmeathindependent.ie/2022/06/20/naughten-calls-for-progress-on-proposed-army-hq-in-athlone/

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119231761#Comment_119231761

The only reason i mention it is i spoke with a former colleague at the weekend an he had said there was talk around the political circles in the town about it happening. Apperently many people in the town still feel bitter over the barracks closing

An as for the two ministers the only logic would be votes as they could say they brought 300 jobs back to the town in time for the next election

As stupid as things may seem anything is possabile with the people we elected in this country

roadmaster

It looks like the Days of Gormanston may actually be over in the long term . I taught the port for Bremore was pie in the sky stuff but engineering and planning teams have just being appointed

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265681#Comment_119265681

Nope they want every CM of gormanston

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2021-11-18/88/

jonnybigwallet

Ideal spot for a new facility for Air and Sea forces. Refurbish the runway and airfield, complete with bomb proof shelters for the new fighter jets and build a port facility for the East Coast naval detachment, capable of handling larger ships in the frigate/ destroyer range and larger for visiting aircraft carriers etc.

jonnybigwallet

Would generate a ton in employment and be a great economic benefit for the area going forward.