DF Commission Report

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119265903#Comment_119265903

But where will we put our nuclear submarines?🙄

jonnybigwallet

We're not getting any. The best fit for our requirements is a couple of them Smaller German subs which can operate in littoral waters as well as deep sea. Not needed straight away.

First up is to upgrade the 4 OPVS on a phased basis as they come up for quarter life heavy maintenance/ refit.

Next is acquiring a decent frigate with flexibility to do non military roles as well.

Next is acquiring 2 meko 100 corvettes or similar.

sparky42

Coveney in Defence Questions seems to indicated within the next two weeks for the recommendations, guessing from the answer getting sign off from the Cabinet is still the sticking point. Also seems the first confirmation that the NS is getting rebranded, presuming the AC will get renamed as well.

jonnybigwallet

I think that since his trip to the Ukraine Coveney has turned a bit more hawkish on military matters ( by Irish standards anyway)

roadmaster

According to the Journal this Morning Next week we will know the plan

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274425#Comment_119274425

If DPER gets out of the way…

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274470#Comment_119274470

If Coveney had stuck with the F18s and not asked for the F35s we would not have had this problem

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119274562#Comment_119274562

Nah, its the CVN that’s the sticking point I think.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119275165#Comment_119275165

It’s always the small details that catch you out isn’t it…

ancientmariner

The Bremore Port project is a brain child of an east Coast medium port but will need heavy Investor Capital. Ideally port development should be in national hands with no possibility of exclusivity. All national ports should have a dedicated serviced berth for State ships or ships authorised to use such a berth when available such as CIL and Maritime Institute vessels. I mentioned before that in older Harbour Acts there was provision for a berth available at the discretion of the Minister of marine. The crucial decisions must include making the Port big enough and include decent breakwaters to cover all weather usage. They should also consider provision of ship repair and drydocking facilities to replace the losses in Dublin. Ideally two floating docks up to 125 metres and 250 metres.

Making it big enough now with sufficient depth at LWS and sufficient berthage for commercial shipping such as 4 x 150m, 4 x 250m berths with 12m to 14m depth alongside. Suitable smaller berths for coastal shipping and harbour tugs and pilot boats is also needed . For waiting ships a safe anchorage has to be designated.

Lastly with increasing interest on harbours a proper VTS system needs to be inaugurated for the Irish side of the Irish Sea. It is obvious this should be a government project and not a debacle.

roadmaster

The main reason for Bremore Port is that one of the people behind the idea is hoping some of Dublin Port will eventually move out there and the land along the quays can be developed for commerical and residental

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276500#Comment_119276500

It’s the only reason, though the backers seem to think such a massive infrastructure realignment would somehow be quick or simple.

donvito99

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276662#Comment_119276662

The monthly Irish Times piece by David McWilliams on the relocation is overdue.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119276751#Comment_119276751

Or some of the stupid rebuttal pieces they have as well.

ancientmariner

There was a National ports policy produced by the then minister for Marine Mr L. Varadker. If they keep a hand on the Tiller and follow the advice as received in their own reports then correct intended outcomes may occur. The laissez-faire policy of Government has led to a three cup sleight of hand with certain developments,, such as the possible loss of Dublin Port to empire builders. and extinction of Gormanstown Military Aerodrome. If things go on as heretofore neither the Air Corps or the Navy will have any place to go. With the loss of Dublin drydocks and repurposing of Cork Dockyard we are in danger of not been relevant to the shipping Industry.

Grassy Knoll

Tomorrow the Government is to announce the new investment in the Defence Forces. It would seem they are to increase the budget by €500 million from the current €1bn by 2028. This would imply c€85 million extra per annum cumulatively going into the base over 6 years. It is unclear whether this is CapEX only, or includes current spending, which would be increasing anyway thru expended pay increases etc.

Prior to the Defence Commission report there has been announcement last of some modest increases in CapEX - the question is whether the €85 million includes this, or is in addition to this - my guess is the former.

It seems this is bringing spending to Level 2 of ambition, which to be fair is the bare minimum for any level of capability. I see some commentators see this as not going far enough - Level 3 is would bring us to close to where our peers are. This announcement has been delayed - clearly there was push back by D/Public Expenditure - I am sure it will be indicated the capacity to absorb additional investment doesn't exist - probably true in terms of the current organisation, a considerable infrastructural investment programme competing when the construction sector is at full capacity, not to mention buying equipment when militaries across Europe are investing. A six year 'ramp-up' to where we should be can be seen either two ways - the organisation is so denuded it simply could not cope, or a reflection of where it sits in terms of political priorities .....

Brosna1999

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322214#Comment_119322214

Wow, that's pretty miserable!

Larbre34

Of course its so denuded it cannot cope. That ought not be a surprise to anyone here, or any DF member, or any representative body, or any commentator of military affairs in Ireland.

It may come as a surprise to the plain people of Ireland, who take such things for granted and maybe also to certain officials in DoD and DPER, who don't really care.

But to address your point, you have to build capacity before you build capability.

The very first job, is to agree the new command and force structures in the CoDF recommendations and enable them. The second, is to draw up an operational plan for each element and to timetable the resourcing. Only then can they begin sourcing manpower and procuring technology and facilities.

My take on the budget increase is that the ~€85m p.a. will be additional to previously announced CapEx, as its for elements contained in the report not previously enabled by the Department. And yes, some of it is bound to be going on additional pay and pensions, because they must arrest the retention crisis and also attract new entrants.

Realistically though, the DF is in such bad shape, that reaching LoA2 will take much longer than 5 years and given inflation in procurement and operational costs, will probably need a 2 billion budget in today's money by 2030, not a 1.5 billion one.

Running to stand still just became a lot more expensive.

Larbre34

Pointless to increase it by 500 mil in one go Dohvolle, most of it would be returned unspent in Year 1 and Probably in Y2 and 3 also. The capacity just is not there.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322495#Comment_119322495

Well the DOD need to get training from the HSE and the County Councils on how to spend money.

If its 15th december and any county council has 100k left over they will be out tar and chipping any road they find before they go on hoildays so the budget is fully used up

Larbre34

The DoD, going back as long as I can recall, have always seemed to delight in returning budget at the end of the year, as if its a great thing. But its actually the worst thing to do, because it demonstrates incompetent management.

Yes, the other State bodies would teach them a thing or two, but unfortunately its hard enough to spend current expenditure in that fashion when it comes to Defence, unless somebody raises a Purchase Order for 400 Javelin Missiles and 50 million rounds of 5.56.

jonnybigwallet

I wouldn't have a problem spending the unspent budget, just drip feed it into either upgrades on the existing ships / infrastructure or buy a small plane every year. You'd have half a squadron after 4 years.

Grassy Knoll

It certainly will be interesting to see what way Deputy Cathal Berry votes in the SF motion of no confidence tomorrow - he has explicitly linked his support for the Government to what is announced. I presume he has good linkages to the military in terms of what Command thinks is achievable / desirable. However, Level 2 is only a basic level of capability - Level 3 is where we should be at, albeit we are some distance off. Even at the costed €3 billion, this is a relatively modest medium-term outlay in the context of >€100 billion of projected spending by the overall Government sector in 2023.

As I see it, apart from neutrality and some of the associated red herrings, we are a wealthy country that benefits massively from EU membership and global trade. Accordingly, we need to play our part as good global citizens, be it peacekeeping / enforcement, defence of the EU (cyber, Med Operations, piracy off Africa, drug interdiction, patrol of our territorial seas, [inc. safeguarding what lies beneath e.g. tel/comm link] and policing of our skies). This is way before we even get to discussing boots on the ground to assist neighbours who share our values and interests, or even further again, NATO membership. Make no mistake a safe, stable and prosperous EU and international order is in our vital strategic national interest - anyone who says anything to the contrary is talking unmitigated Bravo Sierra!!

While we will never be a massive military power, nor should we be - talk of taking-on the Russians etc is a completely false equivalence. However, we can afford and should be able to provide some level of self sufficiency to defend our own basic national interests as we seek to define them.

Personally, I can't abide freeloaders or hypocrisy, and I think it is time we displayed some degree of national self respect. I feel most right minded citizens who understand the issues rather than listening to a myopic, insular perspective, would agree.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119322702#Comment_119322702

You can't capitalise current expenditure at Departmental level, without express consent from DPER, because again, it demonstrates bad management at operational level.

Believe it or not, many of the failures to deliver programmes in the Irish public sector, is because of the lack of discretion locally. And the reason for that is because of the Pig's mickey that was made with projects at local level over many years.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119323044#Comment_119323044

The only way to ringfence it, is to capitalise it and I explained above what a problem that is.

The exchequer budget is a pretty transparent process (though involved and boring) for a reason. It absolute does not tolerate Empire building or the creation of large discretionary funds.

Like every other Department, Defence has to rely on the political commitment to its resourcing on an ongoing basis. That's where the longterm fight will be.

roadmaster

The DOD and the defence forces will know fairly early on in the year if they can spend the allocated money if they cant they should have a plan B,C,D etc. Use it on infastructure build or if it so is buy an extra couple of transits but what ever they do they should not be returned.

I know of one department in particuar which would hire offices they wont use to make sure they spend the allocated funds

jonnybigwallet

Not a very exciting slug of money to go a very long way. I remember a mate of mine in the DF said that they called the Mowags "bullet magnets"

roadmaster

I see in times today one of the recommendations was to have the Military Police a seperate joint body. There was big push back from the senior managament. Whats the issue there?

donvito99

The Journal's headline of "€8bn defence proposals" is almost as bad as the comments underneath.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119325678#Comment_119325678

Because that never happens in the Journal…

roadmaster

Taken from RTE

"Today's decision should enable the defence forces respond to an attack on Irish sovereignty."

It must be some primary radar if it can not only see but take action. Have i missed something are we getting Gripens?

jonnybigwallet

Err. I think that must be the case.... remember I posted a few days ago that there was a squadrons worth going free from Jonny Swede?

Larbre34

Make no mistake, the primary concern and priority for improvement is cyber vulnerability and intelligence / counter-espionage.

I would suggest that the next greatest vulnerability is sub-surface.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119326861#Comment_119326861

So what you are saying is we need a premptive strike on Tory Island. Id say between the 105s firing from the beach near Falcarragh and the 76mm on the becketts we should be able to take them out

jonnybigwallet

Bring it on! A nation once again!

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119328776#Comment_119328776

Among whom is it causing disquiet?

I've heard some reticence from RACO who have concerns about the effective rate of pay and allowances for junior Officers as compared to NCO instructors, which is fair enough.

But the usual commie bullsh1t out of PBP is the sort of thing that should be ignored, as always.

Contributions from the likes of Labour have been fairly constructive.

roadmaster

All i can say is God Bless Mary Lou and her crew. Thanks to her antics with a motion that was never going to pass all attention was diverted from the increase and will be forgotten tomorrow and defence forces can start to rebuild. Hardly a word in the media a great way to do it

Larbre34

I disagree Roadmaster. This is Day 1 of a 10 to 20 year battle for hearts and minds.

Defence will without doubt need to re-justify itself every budget time.

A citizens assembly on future defence policy is likely before this Government ends its tenure. Certainly, there will be another White Paper to reinforce new policy thereafter.

Rather than try and slide this stuff through as quickly and quietly as possible, its going to be necessary to force Joe Public to engage on defence and security matters more directly than they ever have before, or knew they needed to.

While 30+ years of The Troubles largely marginalised the Defence Forces from public life, the challenges facing all of Europe and the World, will put their fortunes much closer to the centre of both policy and public awareness.

donvito99

Has there been any specifics on the breakdown of future current expenditure, i.e. what proportion is on pay and what is on capex?

Pay is the only real development here IMO, as the capex is just going to pay for the things (MRV, radar which has gone from 10m to 200m?, Etc) already planned but never actually materialised.

Just looked at HLAP. First impressions are that a lot of low hanging fruit are picked off immediately and they have to be: inclusion, culture etc. Some pay issues and HR issues being addressed. Pretty much what was expected around airlift. There’s a lot is organisational reset and all the big ticket items are “revert to govt”.

Given the state of collapse of the DF and the need to put in foundations it can be described as a start. If it’s progressively implemented and backed by money and political clout it might get there. I still see the politics I saw: a desire to have a DF with a bit more capacity to keep the UNSC seat rolling around, a desire to maintain dependency on the UK, a desire to do a bit more to keep the EU and in particular the Eastern Europeans off the govts back, a failure to put the Defence of the state front and centre with real urgency. The battle over “vision” for the DF will tell a tale.

Like the multiple divorcee marrying again, I live in hope but the triumph of hope over experience rarely ends well

roadmaster

So for the air corps are we looking at in the short term 1 extra 295 for transport and 2 139s. Then long term 8 189s or similar?

Level 4 armour for the army what APC would that be?

An the navy early repacement of niamh and her sister?

jonnybigwallet

Excuse my ignorance...What is a 189?

Is it a chopper?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331215#Comment_119331215

Air Corps Code for pints

jonnybigwallet

Excuse my ignorance...What is a 189

jonnybigwallet

Thanks. Only one I could come up with was the FW 189!

tippilot

AW189 is actually the civilian version of the AW149. Same size, minus the military bells and whistles.

No thanks to the AW189, yes please to the 149 which was designed from the outlet as a military chopper. The 189 actually came second and was derived from the 149.

Larbre34

I'm not impressed at all with the lack of acceptance in the HLAP of the recommended C2 structure and force element parity (labelled as revert to Govt at later stage).

As someone who is a project and change manager by profession, I don't think you can agree civilian appointments immediately for Heads of Transformation and Strategic HR, without so much as a roadmap for achieving the key Chief of Defence, Deputy and Vice Chiefs and Heads of Service to enable operational reorganisation.

Failing to do so, sets up the kind of dysfunction that was seen in An Garda Siochána when the senior civilian administrators landed, without any reform of the Brass and it became a zero buy-in, adversarial environment.

This worries me quite a bit and makes all other physical equipment decisions fairly incidental.

PS - I see a footnote in the implementation table, that The Minister wishes to see these recommendations (collectively the above) implemented sooner. There must have been an almighty tussle at Cabinet or inter-department, if Coveney ended up forcing what amounts to a Minority Report, into the HLAP document.

Grassy Knoll

Re Aer Corps air lift, there was commentary recently re an aviation agent examining 2 second hand C 295s on behalf of the DoD? To be fair via some prudent acquisitions good kit can be acquired which meets our needs, with a relatively short lead-in time. Obviously, C130s would be better, but to be fair the commonality of airframes / engines etc would be a big consideration, particularly when technical crew are low in numbers. This will be an incremental build-up of capacity across all three arms.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119331738#Comment_119331738

The referenced section in the footnote seems to imply that it is outside of the remit of the Minister of Defense to actually conduct, though I don't see why that is different from a bunch of other suggestions.

roadmaster

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-defence-forces-action-plan-sean-clancy-5816055-Jul2022/

is the issue with the new Chief role thah He/She will control the budget and thads we it needs legislaton

I also noted in the government document a major reset of ATCP. So those mean i wonder no more troops for details to Portlaoise prision, Prision transports, Government Buildings, Enfield etc?