Why the reign of SUVs on Irish roads should end

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593164#Comment_118593164

Whoever came up with that, I’m embarrassed for them

magicbastarder

Some motorists just love nailing themselves to the cross.

i'm fairly certain it's illegal to drive while undergoing crucifixion, too.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593141#Comment_118593141

is storing a car outside a house 'using' that space? or is it preventing it from use; i.e. does storage of an object count as use of that object?

what about someone who has also paid property tax needs to use the road? by paying property tax, it's not as if you've paid specifically for the road outside your house. can you limit other taxpayer's use of that same space? and regardless, it's public property regardless of whether you're a taxpayer or not, that should not determine access to public space.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593164#Comment_118593164

Yes indeed, we allow it, or put another way it's the way we have decided to live.

I think it does matter what happened when the estate was built and though the houses may have changed hands several times the space both green and parking was always part of the deal.

The buyers had a reasonable expectation that they could park their cars and their kids could play on the green.

Your illustration shows a terraced type development and some newer estates are built in that format.

If you buy in one of them and you accept that you have no right to park that is your decision and you have no right to clog the place up.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593189#Comment_118593189

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593213#Comment_118593213

When did we decide to give free storage for one particular type of private property? I might have missed the public consultation on that.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593211#Comment_118593211

I think in most estates if people have an off road space they use it and if there is a second car they park outside their house.

After that the rest of the spaces are first come first served.

It could be a visitor or a tradesman working in a house etc.

This seems to work pretty well most of the time.

I'm not saying they "own" the road but if it was part of the estate it was effectively paid for by the buyers of the houses.

harmless

I'm lucky, it's on street parling in my area and most use as much of the footpath as possible so the road is left free and does not inconvieniance anyone.

Strumms

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593216#Comment_118593216

a well known expert on Irish commuting problems then, my mistake….!

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593432#Comment_118593432

Doesn't inconvenience anyone

https://twitter.com/AccessForAll7/status/1476953204428574726?t=QLWa8zJrdNEHcJrKDnU8gw&s=19

https://twitter.com/feicphoto/status/1482406638648762371?t=RhmWeB37aAvSktAfM9wjGA&s=19

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593245#Comment_118593245

Pub owners effectively bought and paid for the rights to sell to smoking customers, but we recognised that wasn't a good thing so we changed those rules. It doesn't really matter what was assumed by buyers in the past. We could give people 3 or 6 months notice to find other storage for their private property.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593474#Comment_118593474

A well known expert on standing up to those who use sneering as a tactic to protect their own privileges .

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593229#Comment_118593229

As far back as the 70's An Foras Forbartha and the Dept of Environment and Local Government produced gudelines and standards for the construction of housing estates including parking and roads.

These were adopted in development plans by all local councils following public consultation.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593573#Comment_118593573

I don't see that as a very good comparison but if you want to make it let's examine the effect on people.

People who used to smoke in pubs were discommoded but the pubs were still open and many had smoking areas so people could still enjoy a visit to the pub. You are proposing completely removing an amenity from householders.

I think it does matter what people bought into in buying a house in an estate. They were effectively paying for the whole package, house garden, parking green etc.

If you said to all residents of housing estates that they couldn't park on the road outside their houses where would they put their cars?

There is usually a max of two car spaces in front of an average house so what happens to a visitors car?

That could be someone staying at the house, someone working on the house, a carer etc.

I think your proposal is unworkable and unenforceable with very little chance of being adopted.

That's not to say that we couldn't improve the standards and design of estates.

I'm conscious of the fact that we have strayed quite a bit from discussing SUVs but they do need to park so maybe we are ok.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594430#Comment_118594430

Yes we have strayed from the SUV discussion.....that is because the SUV discussion is basically an anti car discussion. Most SUV's bought by Irish consumer's are no bigger than standard family saloons. Yes there is some larger ones around but people buying these would be buying marquees brands like 5/7 series BMW's, A6 and above Audi's, and other larger trophy card.

Bass Reeves

Dacia have launched a new SUV. It's up to a 7 seater with a base price of 23k. It will really drive on the population these types of cars. Fairly basic 1L petrol engine with a hybrid in the pipeline.

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2022/0206/1278128-dacia-launches-budget-seven-seater-suv/

you would hardly get a Nissan Micra for that.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594430#Comment_118594430

My proposal is the exact opposite of ‘completely removing the amenity from the community’. The amenity HAS been completely removed from the community and is being used by a select group for storage of their private property. This proposal will give the amenity back to the community, and make it available for people who are driving on the road, for kids who are playing on the road, for those who are cycling on the road - basically what the road was originally for, instead of being used as a private storage area.

You’d be amazed how creative people can be about finding space to park when their free, public space is taken away. You’ll find that all those car wrecks that are sitting about in driveways and gardens going nowhere will suddenly get sent to the scrapyard. You’ll find that the neighbours who have no car or space for an extra car will have a nice little side earner renting out their space to others. You’ll find that local spaces will be repurposed as paid parking, so people can pay for their storage space instead of taking the community amenity space.

What happens to the visitor or the carer? Well, maybe just like in the rest of the world, people have to make arrangements for their parking and not use public space for free? Maybe they need to move their own vehicle elsewhere for the duration? Maybe the visitor needs to park at the local community paid (shock horror) parking and walk (shock horror) for a few minutes to their destination? Maybe all those 18 and 19 year olds will be less likely to get a car gifted from mummy and daddy when mummy and daddy find they have to find their own space to store it? Maybe the young working adults in the house will be less likely to buy their own cars when they find they have to fund their own space to store it? Maybe they’ll rely more on car sharing, taxis, occasional car rental, and (shock horror) public transport?

Maybe, just maybe, we don’t need to build our society around everyone having a couple of tons on metal outside the door, sitting unused for 90+% of the time, being 80% empty for most of its hours of use, and taking 98% of the power consumption going into moving the item itself, not the occupants?

FinnC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118593189#Comment_118593189

+1 Agree

magicbastarder

there's a few responses that the 'anti-SUV' side are simply anti-car, when (at least some of us) have clearly stated why we don't like SUVs. most of us drive cars.

my father in law drives a boat of a 7 series, it's essentially a limousine; i prefer him driving that compared to the merc ML he had before. my brother in law drives a carrera 4. that's great, they're out of my eye-line.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594917#Comment_118594917

All I can do at this stage is to wish you luck with your campaign.

You have raised some interesting proposals for change in parking regimes in estates.

While we didn't agree you have given me food for thought.

Gant21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594895#Comment_118594895

Is it a proper suv though? Will it bring the few hens to the mart and satisfy the school run?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594895#Comment_118594895

It doesn't have a Euro NCAP test result yet but based on their other models , I take it for granted that it will have a fairly poor safety standard for both it's occupants and for vulnerable road users.

Killer K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118594917#Comment_118594917

Would find it difficult to argue with this. If it was implemented properly across large urban areas it would make a real impact to the environment at a very low cost to the taxpayer. Would make people question, whether they need the second, third or fourth car in the household. Particularly those who are living in large urban centres that are fairly well served by public transport.

Many estates weren't designed for parking on the road, particularly on both sides. Makes it much more difficult for people pulling out of their drives and children crossing the road due to decreased visibility.

magicbastarder

i know it's barely an SUV (it's the aygo cross he's talking about for god's sake) but if this journalist - michael sheridan - is concerned about drivers being stereotyped, he's going the wrong way about it.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1491204000800452608

Popoutman

It really looks like I will have to make sure to never bring my Cayenne Turbo to Ireland.. seems like it ticks far too many of the haters' boxes and would be at risk. Ireland really isn't the country for a car lover anyway with things like taxes being too high, the roads are definitely too crap, and it's clear that significant amounts of other drivers have a hatred of any car nicer than theirs.

It's a pity as that car really ticks all the relevant boxes for my particular use case..

• Must be petrol to enter European city centres, seeing that diesels are slowly being forbidden and I couldn't afford a Euro 6d diesel that satisfied everything else on the want/need list.
• Must be capable of comfortable trans-Europe trips carrying a decent amount of stuff internally. So for me this meant a quiet interior with good stereo, adaptive cruise, comfortable seating, air suspension, and an estate form factor. My holidays are generally camping activity trips with three other adults.
• Must be able to take a Thule roofrack with 60kg+ capability - this immediately rules out some of the Tesla options. I kayak, so I absolutely need this.
• Must be a proper four wheel drive as it snows a lot where I now live and snow tires are mandated. All-season tyres are specifically not suitable, must have the snowflake or three-peak mountain. All seasons could be used with chains. Two-wheel drives could work but poorly. I do also go off-road as an example I took my Q7 up to the top of Keeper Hill a few times and that road to the summit is not for a crossover or soft-roader SUV, it needs the ground clearance.
• Must be reliable. All indications suggest that the Cayenne is more reliable than many of the other options. Range rover was dropped from the list for this reason. Anyway, the dealer I got my car from has a long extended warranty so that takes care of that for me.
• Must have a hitch, for a rear bike carrier to take the mountain bikes. Rear hatch carriers are not great compared with a good Thule hitch carrier.
• Would be nice to have the interior feel somewhat "special" when sitting in it in traffic. I like leather in a car, and every touch point in my Cayenne is either leather or Alcantara.
• Must be under 1.85m tall for access to various car parks.
• Reasonable overall cost of ownership. Tax and insurance on this car is significantly cheaper than what I had in Ireland, and I'm not driving enough for the fuel economy to be a real issue, with under 10k km a year expected.
• And should be somewhat fun to drive. 500bhp and actually half-decent actual handling does help with this one!
• Under a particular price point, which I'm not pointing out here.
• Things I don't care about: Brand image; overall looks past a point; paint colour;

I was shopping for either an Audi S6 or a Porsche Cayenne as there weren't really any other options in the price range. It just happened that the first car in my price range with the desired spec was a Cayenne Turbo. Still, I feel that if I had this car in Ireland it would be an object of hate from people that couldn't understand why this car makes sense *for me* with my use cases. Of course, if I overlook some of my tick boxes I could find something that would be a compromise, but when I had the option to search for what I want that also fully satisfied what I need, that's what I did. If an S6 with the right spec had turned up before this Cayenne appeared, then I would have taken that instead.

I see that the hatred for the SUV in Ireland comes from a few different places, some of which can be considered to be justified, and some that are just asinine.

• I completely agree with the environmental concerns generically associated with SUVs, though I think it's less accurate of late than portrayed in the public media. My purchase of a second-hand Cayenne affects the environment less over my expected ownership lifetime than my purchase of a new EV and certainly a lot less than the purchase of a new fossil-fueled or hybrid car - when the construction and disposal costs are factored in. I wouldn't have bought a new car even if I could find one that satisfied the criteria for these exact same reasons.
• Seeing the stereotype of the needs-to-be-seen Irish Mammy bringing the kids(s) the kilometre to the suburban primary school gate in the SUV that never sees a bit of mud or pretty much any other use, does scream to me to be a proper waste of resources. It's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut, and the attitude that drives this is very annoying. Walk your child to the school dammit, and bring a raincoat if needed.
• There's also a certain jealousy amongst the Irish these days that tries to pull someone down when they appear to be any bit successful. Very rare to see "I'm genuinely happy for them". I find that attitude too common and it's absolutely terrible. I see it often enough on Boards and I have seen it in this thread too. It's the typical voice of the comments under many of the Irish websites. People forgetting that the pixels they're hating on on Twitter/FB/Boards are real people - if given the opportunity to say it face to face most wouldn't have the balls to..
• Two-wheel drive tall cars without ground clearance get mis-branded as SUVs, but don't deserve the moniker. Juke, Qashqai, Mokka, Kuga - none of these are actual SUVs but they do get lumped in with things that actually have the capability to be all of the "S" and the "U" of the moniker.

By far and away the best ways to combat the problems that the original article touches on would be:

• Make public transport in towns and suburbs the same as many Euro cities. Frequent routes, routes that make sense, and not running the routes as a business but instead run everything as a service.
• Long-term, our society needs to change away from the current low-level housing to go to more dense housing similar to most European cities, with a proper amount of carparking in e.g. the basements. in 20 years time it may be possible to do very efficient personal transport and we shouldn't hamstring ourselves with no spaces for these vehicles. Of course this means proper regulation of everything rental, and proper rental agencies.
• Seriously improve cycling infrastructure, and make cyclists a higher priority than cars for infrastructure purposes. Employers should provide better facilities for cyclists. We are getting there slowly, but there's lots more to be done.
• Stop penalising the car, but instead make the alternatives so much more enticing that they become real options. This change of attitude won't be easy as the Greens see the car as an easy target, without being able to offer really useful alternatives.

Windowsnut

In the interest of being fair and balanced, shouldn't there be a thread titled, Why the reign of suvs on irish roads should continue??

Possible reasons, lower back pain issues when lifting three kids in and out of a car, is made so much less in an SUV

The work horse on a farm, we are a farming Country, many farmers use these to get about difficult terrain were a normal car would sink.

TheTruth89

magicbastarder

Possible reasons, lower back pain issues when lifting three kids in and out of a car, is made so much less in an SUV

The work horse on a farm, we are a farming Country, many farmers use these to get about difficult terrain were a normal car would sink.

try lifting them out one at a time instead!

joking aside, i don't think anyone in this thread has decried SUVs/4x4s in the context you mention.

em_cat

Yea I agree with you@Popoutman, you use your SUV as they are ultimately intended and for that reason the hate isn’t really directed at SUVs for those reasons.

I use the same roof rails and carry container on my MB A Class & with AWD & adaptive suspension I can too go almost anywhere you can, with exception of places that obvs I can’t clear like you. We also use our motor to travel with as I prefer to drive on my holidays so we can bring the dogs & equipment. However I’ve no where near the fantastic BHP you’ve got, must be a blast to drive, little jealous tbh…

I thoroughly hate the city baby SUV drivers though, in a place like Dublin City, there’s no need for them to be driven as their daily. They don’t fit in between the actual lane markings, cause awful blockages on residential streets and nearly always have 1 person in them when I come across them. They make it really difficult to see traffic on coming @ a T junction if they are on the LHS

I would like to a see a congestion charge based on emissions &/or weight. That might get people to think twice about if they need to use a tank to get in their Brown Thomas shopping.

maestroamado

Personally I think most SUVs like Nissan Quasqai no bigger than the modern car but d agree smaller cars be better.

The way I would go is another category on the license for farmers, solicitors and important people that need them. It would be separate drive test. Another option is may be have a separate license for women as these yokes too big for them...