Ireland's defensive frailty exposed by Russian exercise

BluePlanet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529141#Comment_118529141

1st paragraph is a poor take. The clear opt-out for Ireland is written there in b&w:

Article 42.7 Lisbon Treaty (EU)

“If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. This shall not prejudice the specific character of the security and defence policy of certain Member States

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528788#Comment_118528788

I remember Kevin Myers saying the Irish were not mechanically minded and it really stayed with me. I don't think we as a country have a flair for engineering or mechanical projects like the Swedes and the Swiss. We are slightly less autistic than them. Instead our strengths lie in the soft power world of diplomacy. But it sucks that we are theoretically a wealthy country, we spend zilch on the military, but yet we can't seem to produce a single functioning system that works for the people, be it transport, education, hospitals etc.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525829#Comment_118525829

In !990, Secretary of state , James Baker gave Gorbachev an assurance that, in agreeing to German unification and continued membership of NATO, NATO in turn would agree not to expand into eastern Europe and not to move troops to threaten Russia/USSR. (see Gorbachev: His Life and Times - William Taubman - Google Books)

I am no fan of Putin, but the Russians have legitimate security concerns which , rather than being addressed by the west, are being used by NATO to racket up tension. The current standoff is exactly analogous to the stand off in early 1960s, no doubt you remember, except the antagonists are in exactly the opposite position. An assurance that NATO will not pose a threat to Russia and the removal of NATO weapons from Eastern Europe would go a long way to ease that tension and the likely hood of conflict. Instead we see US and UK, countries that have a history of lying their way into a war, continue to rebuff diplomatic advances and instead spread propaganda in the same way that they talked up 'weapons of mass destruction' in the early 1990s in Iraq.

Manpads, RPGs, assault rifles and woukd be worth asking any of the older afghan refugees

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529265#Comment_118529265

The most potent war machine of the last 100 years is the submarine. John Holland from Ennis and educated in Drogheda was responsible and indeed sold his first submarine "The Fenian Ram" to The IRB.

The Atom was first split not by a German a Swiss or an American but by Ernest Walton from Wexford.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528244#Comment_118528244

yes so the overspend on military advocated here will result in shortfalls in other areas

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528293#Comment_118528293

they have been doing this for the last 50 years, what is the point indeed

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528788#Comment_118528788

why would russia have a no aggression pact with russsia 🤣

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529265#Comment_118529265

its because people are always sitting on the sidelines cribbing and moaning

the best thing we have done with our money is not waste it on the military

There are roads hospitals and transport out there all working away despite the moaning

JimmyVik

Everybody needs to chill out.

There is nothing going to happen here. And listening to them on the TV going on about defense and it being pathetic that Coveny wont do anything about the Russians.

Jesus people to relax and look at the reality of the situation.

The Russians are doing military operations in the atlantic ocean like they have always done. Ireland is not now or ever going to be able to tell the Russians what to do.

Talk about a mountain out of a molehill. Anyone triggered by the Russians really needs to think about themselves.

Irish_wolf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529496#Comment_118529496

Agreed. I can understand the fishermen being a bit miffed as they are already on the breadline. But I seriously question the motives of anyone suggesting that this is the signal that we need to arm ourselves against an invasion. There is nothing we could do in the next 20 years that would allow us to withstand even a casual assault from a world super power. To divert time and resources away from social causes and infrastructure to support a pointless military is just laughable. Yes we could do with a few more interceptor style ships to help patrol our waters from drug dealers and protect our fisheries, and maybe some new survey equipment. But gearing up to defend ourselves militarily in a full out battle we may as well not bother for how much extra time that would buy us.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529535#Comment_118529535

Yes we could do with a few more interceptor style ships to help patrol our waters from drug dealers and protect our fisheries, and maybe some new survey equipment.

That's about the extent of what people are asking for here. Again - no poster is arguing that we should build up our military to be able to compete with Russia. Only that we should have some minimal level of self-reliance without having to hide behind the skirt of the UK or US for absolutely everything (by the way when push comes to shove we won't be picking up the phone to Brussels for help that's for sure).

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529442#Comment_118529442

Like the 20+ billion on welfare ,the nearly 1 billion we send to Africa every year ,the 500 million we spend on bonus asylum seekers .

We already have shortfalls we spend hundreds of millions on homelessness yet we still have the same homeless cohort we've for the last 30 years ,

We put billions in to health care , education and social and affordable housing.

Why can we not spend several billion per year on defense it won't effect other areas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529567#Comment_118529567

We exploit the labour and resources of third world countries. The very least we should do is send them foreign aid.

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529582#Comment_118529582

So they can invest in their militaries new weapon systems attack helicopters and jets ....

But god forbid if we spend our money on our actual defense

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058229572/irelands-defensive-frailty-exposed-by-russian-exercise

Ireland's military capability has always been = ask America if stuck. Failing that ask Britain. Failing that ask the EU.

Even if Ireland invested in all those things you mention in your post. It still would not make much difference as Ireland is such a small nation and weak militarily. So Ireland's best defence has always been diplomacy. No way would Ireland have the amount of money to invest in defence as Switzerland does. Switzerland has conscription a high tech army. The country is littered with bunkers, missile installations, and fighter jet bases. Also in Switzerland when civilians leave the army they keep the guns. They are expected to keep them handy just in case.

The Garda helicopters are seen as a big expense for the Irish state, in contrast! The coast guard is about the most defence you get on the seas.

Can you imagine the uproar if Ireland spent all that money on the things you suggest? It would immediately be critiised. What about the roads/hospitals/education etc? Even a simple thing like conscription instead - it would be a cold day in hell before Irish people let that be introduced.

You are right though. It is spoofing. I cannot find the picture. But I am sure someone can find it. World War II - (The Emergency) De Valera beside an anti-artillery gun. The gun was wooden. A fake.

It is much more practicable therefore for Ireland to be 'slightly neutral', and keep on the good side of America. And pontificate in the EU.

Not only is it cheaper, it is much safer.

-

It is not only Ireland who has this dependency on America for defence by the way. I believe there are 750 American Military Bases Worldwide.

It is prudent therefore IMO, that Ireland continues to allow the American's to use Shannon as a stopover - turning a blind to what they use it for. Given the alternatives. As if the likes of Russia did pose a threat to Ireland. America would be more able and more willing to step in and play 'big brother'.

It is nice theory that Ireland should have improved defences. But in reality it would not be much defense against any invasion. So I can understand why the diplomacy route is prefered. Cheaper, more practicable. And less contentious with the majority of Irish people than other alternatives.

Fandymo

Can't we send the navy down to give out to them? Or are they still contracted to the people traffickers in the Med??

CreadanLady

Defence spending as far as Ireland is concerned would amount to this...

Buy a load of military equipment and a probably grossly inflated price, then let the majority of it gather dust in a warehouse in the Curragh for 20 odd years until it is obsolete, or it is discovered that there was some fault in it from day one and it was never going to work anyway and there is no come-back on the manufacturer. Then keep it for another 20 years. And replace it. Vehicles might get the odd run around the curragh.

Where is the value for money in that?

All it is is playing into the hands of trillionaire arms manufacturers.

And this whole discussion is a waste of time anyway because no Irish government is going to spend any more than the absolute minimum of defence, the minimum being just enough so that PD Forra are kept at a bearable level of complaining about underfunding.

They can always deflect by dredgign around to bring up allegations of sexual abuse of female staff by the senior officers - that'll keep them in check.

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529567#Comment_118529567

Of course it will affect other areas. Don't be so daft.

You're highlighting just a few of the areas where we regularly fail to get value for money in government spending. And then in the same breath, you're advocating that we plow billions into defense spending. Despite the fact that we are not a target on anyone's list to be either attacked or invaded. And even if we were, no amount of military defense spending would enable us to keep that particular wolf from our door for very long. It's a laughable stance to take.

We're a small nation, and we have nothing to prove by posturing with our military. Our history shows we are well capable of fighting a foreign power in the only way a small outnumbered people can. But dumping billions on defense spending contracts, so we can essentially swing our d!ck around out in the north atlantic and play shadow games with a major world power... is both dumb and completely pointless.

At that point we stop being the friendly irrelevant non-threatening paddies, and become at best an annoying pain in the hole to a dangerous super power. At worst, a hostile unfriendly nation worthy of fcuking with or messing up some area of our daily lives. None of which is worth the hassle or the enormous tax payer investment.

@JimmyVik is bang on the money. People need to chill out, and stop overreacting to a nothing event here. The Russians are doing military exercises in the atlantic. Like every other major power does around the world. The Americans regularly play naval war games in everybody else's back yard. What's the big deal here?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529687#Comment_118529687

Any examples of where military equipment was bought and left in warehouses for 20 + years...

Of course you don't ...

65535

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529496#Comment_118529496

Exactly - Back in the '80's when NATO were doing exercises off the top of Ireland near the Rockall bank nothing was said.

If Russia follows the rules of telling us and aviation if/when live fire exercies are to happen then no rules are broken.

To state that we need to beef up our 'defences' is a misunderstanding - we could never ever compete with the likes of Russia in terms of military hardware. To advocate joining NATO is incorrect as it would only place us in a role that we were never going to be in - we are not Neutral as some people say - we are Non-Aligined - That is why Aeroflot used to land in Shannon on their way to Cuba.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2022/0125/1275728-ireland-fishing-russia/

Fishermen plan a protest.

It would be hilarious if fishing boats stopped it.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529849#Comment_118529849

Naive and deluded but I still love it. Fair f*cks to them at least someone in our country has a pair of liathroidi.

Honestly even though they are not planning to face down the Russians, there have long been suspicions of the equipment of Irish fishing boats getting dragged under by Russian submarines accidentally. I wouldn't fancy taking that extra risk myself.

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529496#Comment_118529496

A good sensible post imo, a game of cat and mouse has been going on for years in the Atlantic with submarines tracking each other.

Coveney is one of these Atlanticist think-tank types so what he says is predictable and to be expected.

The anti Russia hysteria and propaganda is going down a treat with the armchair military strategists and Rambos.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529776#Comment_118529776

I bet most of the stuff the army buys already just sits in a warehouse somewhere gathering dust.

Limited numbers of small arms, ammunition, artillery, anti tank stuff. It is all just in a warehouse gathering dust because the majority of it serves no useful purpose.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530038#Comment_118530038

We (Ireland) don't actually carry large volumes of equipment or arms in a stockpile or depot system. The supply chain for anything larger than a helmet is far from request it.

We have responsibility for huge volumes of sea and air that we can offer not even notional surveillance of. Noone on this thread calling for better defensive ability is asking for frigates or even interceptor aircraft(although there is a need for the aircraft at least).

Regarding the aircraft? We could follow the Baltic model and have deployments of other European aircraft to our shores and support them.

Regarding the ships, our newer hulls have been built with capacity for upgraded reader and armament. We can slowly add to our capabilities at each ships refit.

A 3" canon, is grand for fisheries protection but not much else.

The 2 new MPA aircraft are a vital improvement and should be supplemented by long endurance maritime drones.

There are many ways we can improve our defence without going wild at an arm's expo. We could expand our role in Partnership For Peace, join the European Air Transport Fleet and gain access to the Air Transport who's absence has been highlighted over the last 2 years. We could expand our involvement with European navies on reciprocal patrol, support and basing. Lots that can be done, that will gain us credible capabilities without abandoning our notional neutrality or breaking the bank.

You keep banging on about the equipment serving no useful purpose? I have a fire extinguisher, I'm trained in its use. I have never used it. Should I just stop maintaining it? Sell it?

Or if I did that? Would I miss it when I need it? Should I expect my neighbour to put out my fire for me?

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528912#Comment_118528912

The submarines HMS Vanguard and Le Triomphant collided in the Atlantic Ocean in the night between 3–4 February 2009. Both were ballistic missile submarines belonging to countries who had four such subs because it's the minimum number to guarantee at least ONE would be on patrol at all times. As allies it's quite possible that each would have counted on the other for backup.

So it this collision had occurred at wrong time in the replenishment cycle both countries would have had no nuclear deterrent. But they are super secret subs so who knows ?

Gatling

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530038#Comment_118530038

So what your saying is you haven't a clue what we have or don't have and where the secret warehouses are

Gatling

If we had a nice Chat with the swedish government we could probably get a decent deal on ,land ,air and Maritime assets .

Elmer Blooker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530242#Comment_118530242

Your usual moronic standards Rambo.