The media and male violence

seamus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529445#Comment_118529445

He hasn't been charged (according to this thread anyway). He may still be arrested on suspicion of murder without being charged. The arrest is part of the legal process, it allows them to question him under caution and detain him for a maximum period of time while they get a proper grip on what happened. If he wasn't arrested, he could walk out of the police station and leave the country.

I'd like to think it would be fairly standard process one way or another. Regardless of what force was used, a group of people standing around a dead man could always claim they were acting in self defence in order to throw the cops off.

zv2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529445#Comment_118529445

It is reasonable force if someone's life is in danger.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529768#Comment_118529768

Sorry, but there are people with criminal records because they sought to defend others. It's a big risk to take when it comes to the investigation after the incident, especially if someone is dead. The same for defending yourself. Reasonable force is not decided by the people involved.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529742#Comment_118529742

I would imagine doing something to stop him stabbing someone, not knocking down and killing two people!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529767#Comment_118529767

Of course it's standard,people can't expect to kill someone and walk away!

I would think running them over is above reasonable force however

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530017#Comment_118530017

We're all heroes in our own minds. When it comes to reality though... we tend to fall short.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/18/enacted/en/html

in Ireland, here is the defence for justifiable use of force. If you are genuine in your assistance of someone you believe is being assaulted and you do what you think you have to, to assist that person, there's a defence.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530035#Comment_118530035

There’s falling short klaz, and then there’s driving at someone behind the wheel of a vehicle with intent to cause sufficient injury to stop them from continuing an attack.

That’s not just falling short, it’s criminal.

john123470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530017#Comment_118530017

According to one newspaper, bystanders reported that the attacker had already stabbed the woman several times (approx 10 times in the torso and neck and that she was on the ground). Attacker and victim would have been in very close proximity whether on the ground or not

The attacker turned and threatened those who tried to intervene with the knife before returning to his frenzied assault

It would seem from these reports that the lady stood little chance of surviving the assault

I doubt the bystanders had much time to discuss what would be considered 'reasonable force'.

They could have simply thrown their hands in the air and walked away since driving a car at the perpetraror would be considered 'unreasonable force'

Perhaps there is CCTV evidence also.

Meanwhile, all we have are newspaper / bystanders' reports and surmise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530122#Comment_118530122

Well, if he can justify his actions and the CPS believe he was only doing what he thought he could, he won't be charged. If he is, it'll be up to the jury whether he is convicted, they will have to believe he just did what was necessary.

Personally, I wouldn't have an issue being judged by a jury, if I believed I took the necessary action.

zv2

"Dr Cliona Saidlear said young girls need to be made aware that young boys who sit with them in the classroom can also be a danger."

Young boys should be warned that the little girl sitting beside him can falsely accuse him and have him taken from his family and put into care.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529380#Comment_118529380

A completely irrelevant anecdote given that most women's fears tend to center around being on their own in less populated environments.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530220#Comment_118530220

So, avoid less populated environments... I do. I tend to stick to areas where I know there's a reliable amount of foot traffic.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530287#Comment_118530287

Quick....tell all the females of Ireland that you've solved their problem by thinking of something they've never considered themselves.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530220#Comment_118530220

A very relevant anecdote by way of countering the ridiculous narrative being portrayed by dishonest hacks* in Irish media looking to generate content which puts food on their tables at the expense of portraying women as wilting wallflowers who need constant chaperoning as though they’re living in the middle of Mumbai.

*I would call them journalists, but that implies they have integrity, a character trait which they are very clearly lacking.

I might also have mentioned the girl in the lift who I interrupted while she was taking a selfie and the elevator doors opened. I stood there for a minute not sure what to do when she beckoned me in, “you’re grand” I said, “I’ll take the stairs”, pointing to the sign that said only members in the same household could be in the lift. God me out of a tight spot, but I nearly broke my hole falling down the stairs laughing at the encounter.

That anecdote would have been inappropriate though, because it was fcuking hilarious.

BrianD3

Looks like we have some here who have watched too many Chuck Norris films who think that "something should be done" but using a car as an improvised defensive weapon - Jaysus, that's too much.

This actually ties back to the topic of women being attacked and calls on "men" to do something. The likes of Women's Aid and the NWCI have no practical suggestions and are clueless. And in fact don't want solutions seeing as their livelihood depends on women remaining victims.

Someone suggests that women should be offered self protection training and the inevitable, well practiced response is that they shouldn't have to and the mere suggestion of it constitutes victim blaming.

Using something like a car to stop an attack - there is an emotional, visceral reaction there with it likely seen as cowardly.

Plenty of people out there living in a fantasy world. Women who think that if they are attacked, some 6 foot 4, 18 stone rugby player will be around to save the day by rescuing the damsel in distress with his bare hands. Then our hero will bring her to bed afterwards.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530320#Comment_118530320

Wow.. sarcasm, while refusing to deal with what was said... that's new. 🙄

You seem to expect a reality that is different from that of men. As if, by being women, you're entitled to be safe everywhere, and reality is going to match that expectation, just because you wish it to happen. It's not. As adults we are responsible for our own safety, and that includes avoiding areas where we are vulnerable, or have higher risks.

The sensible option is to accept that there are dangers in life, and adjust your lifestyle to minimize your exposure to those risks. That's the case for both genders...

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530349#Comment_118530349

Countering a ridiculous narrative with an even more ridiculous narrative isn't the power move you think it is.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530370#Comment_118530370

Look, I'm not fooled by the disingenous style of 'arguing' people like you employ. You have said absolutely nothing of substance to 'engage with' or 'deal with', it's laughable that you're sitting there thinking you've made some kind of valid point. Women aren't morons, they use every safety behaviour available to them and it still isn't enough.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530379#Comment_118530379

I’m clearly no match for your petty sniping.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530217#Comment_118530217

Yes. If I had a son now I would be working hard on teaching him to be respectful of everyone he encounters and to ensure that he’s never alone in a room with a female he doesn’t know.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530395#Comment_118530395

You, yourself, said "most women's fears tend to center around being on their own in less populated environments".

Those are your words, and nothing in my post is twisting or changing what was said. I said that I avoid less populated environments. Why? because as a person, there is a definite risk involved in such places to me.. and if the risk is there for me, then it is there for women.

The problem with posters like yourself is that you refuse to deal with the arguments made. Instead you deflect, constantly returning to how unfair it is for women to be at risk. However, the simple fact is that everyone is at risk. The risks to men are different than they are for women, but the risks are often just as high...

I know "women" aren't morons. My mother and sister are probably the most intelligent people i know... and they take care. They drive when they can. They walk with other people, avoiding walking anywhere alone, except in populated areas. They take precautions. That to me is a sign of intelligence, and the truth is that most women will take those same precautions because they understand that the risks exist.

As for people like me... and the style of arguing.. it's called logic. Less emotion, less idealistic nonsense, more interest in the realities involved.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530450#Comment_118530450

Whatever man, I've stopped paying attention to this rot. It's like talking to a brick wall.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530367#Comment_118530367

It's not rocket science. Justified use of force isn't hard to understand.

If someone is going to drive down Grafton Street and kill/injure lots of people, then ram them off the road with your car, 100% justifiable.

If someone is boxing the head of anyone, shooting them would not be justified.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530519#Comment_118530519

Who said anything about boxing the head off someone or a mass murder on Grafton St. The case being discussed here involved someone being stabbed multiple times and the attack apparently being stopped by a third party using a car. Your reaction was to say that it wasn't reasonable force. Yet you still haven't said what you would have done or what would have been reasonable force. And now you're deflecting by talking about boxing someone and throwing in a dig about rocket science.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530489#Comment_118530489

haha... cruel irony.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530595#Comment_118530595

So would have used what I think justified force was. If he believes that using his car was justified, that's his decision, but there is no guarantee anyone else will agree with him.

What is justified for him, may be different to what is justified for me. I would have thought another weapon would be justified.

do you think it was reasonable use of force?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530220#Comment_118530220

How could you possibly know what most women’s fears are that you imagine you could make such a claim that most women’s fears are anything?

The sort of hacks that write opinion pieces for their middle class readers have no more of a clue what most women’s fears are than you or I do. I don’t claim to know what most women’s fears are, but if anyone’s fears of anything are such an impediment to their participation in society, that’s not a social problem, and it’s not an issue that can be addressed with social policies.

It’s why I said earlier that it needs to be considered and addressed at an individual level, in the very same way as anyone with a persecution complex has an issue which can only be considered and addressed at an individual level, and if necessary through counselling.

My point, and my only point, is that the narratives being portrayed by Irish opinion writers are simply perpetuating social anxiety among their readership, and some people are more prone to it than others, a gullibility which isn’t based upon sex, and working themselves up into a frenzy.

It’s completely irrational, and as much as they’re a pain in the arse, I was glad to see young women out last night not cowering in fear at the mere sight of a man, or kowtowing to the media narrative of the bogeyman around every corner waiting to jump out and attack them.

It’s perverse, to be honest, what the media have been allowed get away with the last few years, stoking gender wars nonsense that bears very little relation to reality. It’s why I just don’t bother much with newspapers and try to limit my exposure to other shameless sources of perpetual misery porn.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531029#Comment_118531029

The use of force in this case was absolutely justified 100%. IMO. Assuming the incident is as being reported and described in the thread. If the woman died not as a result of the stabbing but as a result of the attempt to save her, that is bad but the driver still should be treated leniently in that case.

A car is one if the best improvised weapons that a person has in an everyday situation.

We're not allowed to carry actual yet less lethal weapons for self defence. Pepper spray is banned here. Not sure about the UK.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531504#Comment_118531504

Don't get me wrong, I sincerely hope he is not charged. So long as he can justify his actions and that he believed it was necessary, then he should be ok.

It will I suspect depend on what else was available to use. I wouldn't advise using a car as a weapon, definitely not in this country, not unless it was to stop another vehicle.

Still stihl waters 3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530056#Comment_118530056

So are you saying they were adequate in the response that they stopped the assailant, the intent was to stop the attack which was successful, the criminal part comes after and left up to a court of law if they decide to proceed with charges

enricoh

https://m.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/man-37-jailed-after-breaking-into-home-of-woman-91-and-sexually-assaulting-her-41276239.html

Some absolute dregs of society enriching our little island these days.

dog_pig

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40792437.html

OEJ, don't put words in my mouth, I didn't say or suggest anything about falling short. In fact, I have not made a single judgment about the actions of the driver.

My only statement was about the dangers of being killing someone in defense of another, in response to another posters comments.

john123470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531919#Comment_118531919

If you happened to be defending this poor lady from assault, you'd first have to pause and consider what would be "appropriate action" to take.

Perhaps get him in a headlock and try holding him till the Gardai arrived - if you happen to be stronger than him.

Or start roaring at him while keeping him at bay with a chair

He has rights too you know esp as an uninvited guest in your house. Best to err on the side of "reasonable force"

buried

Concerning that incident in London, its not beyond the realms of possibility that the driver of the car may have thought he was witnessing another brainwashed lunatic terrorist repeating the same knife wielding mass assault seen so many times before on the streets on London in recent years.

zv2

One Eyed Jack: "How could you possibly know what most women’s fears are that you imagine you could make such a claim that most women’s fears are anything?

The sort of hacks that write opinion pieces for their middle class readers have no more of a clue what most women’s fears are than you or I do. "

Men know how to look behind them on the street; how to scan the bus for psychos; how not to go down certain streets; how to watch the morons outside the chipper, etc. It does not take much imagination to know women's fears, they are much the same as ours.

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531919#Comment_118531919

That's horrific.

He had previous convictions and arrived in Ireland February 2021. Is it too much to ask that background check be carried out? I know there's free movement in the EU, but something needs to change.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118531972#Comment_118531972

Same could be said of the driver in this case klaz, that’s the point I was making.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532075#Comment_118532075

Quite within your rights to defend your home, it's set out in statute

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2011/act/35/enacted/en/print.html

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532179#Comment_118532179

I got what you were saying alright, my point was, even using your example - that while there are undoubtedly some people of both sexes who are that paranoid, it takes a hell of an imagination to think anyone knows the mind of anyone else or what their fears are or aren’t.

Jason Bourne for example, I am not. I don’t have any fears that I’m going to be attacked when I’m out and about in public, and that’s not just because I’m a man, which is often the response to that point - it’s because I’m not so paranoid. I do know people who are though, of both sexes. Other people have their own fears which I wouldn’t have known about, and until they told me, I never would have imagined it.

zv2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532545#Comment_118532545

I got my lip busted open one day rolling a punctured bicycle home. Things like that sensitize you to violence on the street.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118532617#Comment_118532617

I’m not being obtuse or anything, but yeah, I can completely understand how something like that might affect someone.

The key word in that sentence is ‘might’. Different people will be affected differently, or not at all, by different circumstances pertaining to the individual. It depends entirely upon their own thought processes.

That’s what makes it so difficult for rational people who would never think to attack anyone, to understand the thinking of anyone who has carried out an attack, often described as ‘senseless’, because they can’t make any sense of it or understand what the person who carried out the attack was thinking.

The woman who was stabbed to death in Maida Vale has been named, Yasmin Chfaiki. Her family are hailing the driver of the car as a hero.

“The deceased murderer, Leon McCaskre, was wanted for allegedly breaching a stalking restraint order and not turning up for a court hearing.” Police had issued a warrant for his arrest three weeks ago.

“The Independent Office for Police Complaints has been asked to investigate the force's previous contact with Ms Chkaifi to see if it could have done more to protect her.”

https://news.sky.com/story/maida-vale-met-police-refers-itself-to-watchdog-after-woman-stabbed-to-death-and-her-attacker-fatally-hit-by-car-12525965

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118530030#Comment_118530030

If someone (made up scenario) was in the process of stabbing you and/or your child, and I ran over them with my car to prevent them from continuing their attack, I doubt you'd say "Ah Jaysus, that was above reasonable force".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118540898#Comment_118540898

No of course not! And I hope 100% he will not be charged/convicted, more people need to get involved. People are afraid, and the reason being is because prosecutors and courts, do think like that. I would imagine it will depend on whatever other items were available and what the drivers intention was. reasonable force is very subjective.

And he still killed someone so he has to be.arrested and the incident investigated properly.

BattleCorp1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118541070#Comment_118541070

If you don't think it was above reasonable force, why did you say the following:

"I would think running them over is above reasonable force however"

My made up scenario is not much different to the example being discussed.

Because I think, under the law it will be.

bmc58

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118515750#Comment_118515750

Don't forget Newstalk!

Feisar

The problem is the word reasonable has no place in a conversation around violence. To survive a violent encounter one should follow the three F's. First, fast and furious. Why be thinking about a reasonable level of force when it's time better spent steam rolling through the threat.