The media and male violence

anewme

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525697#Comment_118525697

Are you saying Vicky Phelan and others are lying, because that seems to be what you are implying.

Vicky Whelan's character is beyond reproach and it shows how low some people will go to try to discredit people.

cms88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525822#Comment_118525822

It's not that puzzling really i would have thought. You or me have no idea if what she siad there is being exaggerated. My point is no one will question her either way. BTW she was also quoted as saying he carried keys with her while out.

Many female NGO's have been using this whole thing to suit them and push an agenda. They're also not being questioned not will anyone question them.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526402#Comment_118526402

"BTW she was also quoted as saying he carried keys with her while out."

And? You've never heard of someone doing this?

Sweet jesus, do you just not know any women? Because that would explain a lot.

Feisar

Do people not know that carrying something with the intention of using it as a weapon is illegal? Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six and all that shtick but I wouldn't go around admitting it.

Leg End Reject

It's preposterous to claim that every woman who reports an incident is lying.

Everyone with half a brain knows it happens. Some men behave like that, however all men don't and it's unreasonable to suggest that all boys and men need to be educated.

It's also incredibly naive to believe that education will change or eradicate this behaviour, especially at the more violent end of the scale.

zv2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118525593#Comment_118525593

Personally I have come to the conclusion that general violence in society is a separate issue from gender violence. I think this big gender argument is something men and women have to go through. It is like a domestic argument writ large and like a domestic argument it can clear the air and we will both know better where we stand after it and, hopefully, learn to be better men and women. But we have to go through the fire first.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526623#Comment_118526623

It's preposterous to claim that every woman who reports an incident is lying.

Who claimed that? I thought the claim was that we shouldn't automatically accept a woman's claims as being true... the #Ibelieveher tag being a good example of past attempts to justify the stance that women's claims should be believed without evidence being presented.

Everyone with half a brain knows it happens. Some men behave like that, however all men don't and it's unreasonable to suggest that all boys and men need to be educated.

I'd say that everyone in society, male and female, should be educated equally to present the best opportunities for a safe society... We (as in most people) already are educated somewhat along those lines, but a better system could be designed/implemented with unbiased research to support it.

It's also incredibly naive to believe that education will change or eradicate this behaviour, especially at the more violent end of the scale.

Education encourages conditioning to become established, and conditioning has been used in society for centuries to have most people conform to social norms. Whether it's the Catholic Church, government institutions, or extremist organisations abroad, conditioning has been proven remarkably effective at instilling beliefs in how people should live their lives, but also the perspectives that people have about others.

My claim was that education would decrease this behavior, not that it would eradicate it.. and the more violent end of the scale are typically those who would break any or all rules/norms, because they don't care regardless. However, violence is also performed by people who are normally, well, normal.. and education that is suitable for dealing with emotions, and personal control, would likely provide those people with a greater chance to control themselves, therefore reducing violence in society.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526633#Comment_118526633

I agree, in part.... however, everything is connected, because people have their biases, and agendas to support/promote.

Gender is important because of the state of society in regards to women's rights/feminism and the emergence of male rights groups, which have traditionally been fragmented, and are starting to come together due to the changes in society (that have sought to elevate women above men rather than seeking equality). The use of violence as a rallying cry is part of that gender conflict, and that gender conflict comes from the social sciences that have come from the US. Feminism is strongly rooted in marxism, and marxism tends to support the idea of change through conflict. It stands to reason that these kinds of situations would be used to further promote women's rights, and that means men's rights will decline as a result (because equality is not the objective of feminism).

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526777#Comment_118526777

There was a claim that Vicky Phelan could be lying (not by you). Given her circumstances it's unlikely she'd take the time to lie about a time a man exposed himself to her. Yes, some women will lie and every claim of any wrong doing should stand up to scrutiny regardless of the gender of either the victim or perpetrator.

I wasn't contradicting your post about education, just the general media theme of all men needing education when many of our values and behaviours originate in the home.

With regards to church or governmental controls, they often provide a veneer of respectability where those under their control are afraid to speak out. The Catholic Church here has a sordid history of abuse towards men, women, boys and girls despite their puritanical teachings.

Mwengwe

There was a claim that Vicky Phelan could be lying

About something completely innocuous too.

In fact the poster originally stated that Phelan was trying to 'outdo' others with her tales, which she clearly wasn't as you can see from the tweet above. Not that anyone ever walks anything back on here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526850#Comment_118526850

There was a claim that Vicky Phelan could be lying (not by you). Given her circumstances it's unlikely she'd take the time to lie about a time a man exposed himself to her. Yes, some women will lie and every claim of any wrong doing should stand up to scrutiny regardless of the gender of either the victim or perpetrator.

Yes, the claim was about Vicky Phelan... not all women. But, yes, I agree with the rest of your post.

With regards to church or governmental controls, they often provide a veneer of respectability where those under their control are afraid to speak out. The Catholic Church here has a sordid history of abuse towards men, women, boys and girls despite their puritanical teachings.

It doesn't matter the negatives of the RCC. My point was about the power of education and conditioning. Many dodgy or outright evil regimes have used conditioning to bring about changes in perspectives, and to alter the behavior of people. Usually this meant targeting people when they were young, instilling a range of beliefs in them, and reinforcing those beliefs as they became older. Germany and Russia both did it to bring out aggression in their indoctrinated recruits, but the opposite is just as possible, by reinforcing belief systems that encourages greater patience, and understanding among people. TBH the possibilities are pretty much endless as to what can be done through education and conditioning... and it would be an effective way to decrease the attention given to violence in society. Not enough on it's own, but as part of an overall process, it definitely has value.

Hoboo

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118526961#Comment_118526961

I specifically mentioned Vicky Phelan because of her terminal diagnosis. It strikes me as odd that anyone would waste time making up claims in those circumstances. My post was simply acknowledging that some claims will be false or grossly exaggerated, but some will be true.

With regards to conditioning, if an education/conditioning regime was established to target one gender only it would be unlikely to have positive outcomes for the gender deemed to require it.

I haven't experienced the seemingly ongoing and relentless behaviour that other women reference, I'm not afraid to go out and about, and I'm bemused that this has gained so much traction. It would be awful to have girls indoctrinated that men are to be feared, and cruel to teach boys that they are likely to grow into sexual predators.

rogber

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118522682#Comment_118522682

Sure, I think we're in broad agreement. Acknowleding the reality of irrational impulses and drives, including relating to violence, and finding the right strategies for harnessing and/or counteracting (as much as possible) the harmful aspects.

Mwengwe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527051#Comment_118527051

Yeah, people with a terminal diagnosis should concentrate on dying and not be bothering the rest of us with their views or 'pretending' that they carry keys around

Leg End Reject

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527110#Comment_118527110

That isn't what I said though, is it?

Maybe read carefully before you post like a harridan.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527051#Comment_118527051

I specifically mentioned Vicky Phelan because of her terminal diagnosis. It strikes me as odd that anyone would waste time making up claims in those circumstances. My post was simply acknowledging that some claims will be false or grossly exaggerated, but some will be true.

TBH I tend to be wary of claims/statements made on social media, because people have a stake in presenting/supporting their biases. That's not to say that she was exaggerating or lying outright. I honestly don't know, which is why I didn't get involved in the discussion earlier. Claims, unless they're backed up with evidence should always be taken with a pinch of salt.

Nope. The reason I commented was due to "It's preposterous to claim that every woman who reports an incident is lying"... I hadn't seen anyone state that..

With regards to conditioning, if an education/conditioning regime was established to target one gender only it would be unlikely to have positive outcomes for the gender deemed to require it.

Completely agree, which is why I've been talking about taking a balanced approach and seeking to understand all factors that contribute, including those that are influenced by women in society.

I haven't experienced the seemingly ongoing and relentless behaviour that other women reference, I'm not afraid to go out and about, and I'm bemused that this has gained so much traction. It would be awful to have girls indoctrinated that men are to be feared, and cruel to teach boys that they are likely to grow into sexual predators.

Again, I agree, but there have been people who have been indoctrinated to believe such.. the media has a stake in presenting reality such a way (the amount of attention they allocated to showing women's issues in society means that they're already seeking to condition society), as do hardline feminists. Fear is a powerful way to influence others, especially when you can point to a vague formless fear that is next to impossible to resolve.

cms88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527110#Comment_118527110

Where did anyone say this? You're just making things up now.

anewme

Another shocking murder today in West London, horrific attack on a woman at 9am in Maida Vale. RIP

john123470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527206#Comment_118527206

Yep, fortunately there was a man around to neutralize the attacker

john123470

One of the 3 men who tried to stop this attack on the woman this morning is now charged with murder ..

Ye gods

What kind of message does this send out to bystanders who are urged to get involved - to risk life and limb when an assault is taking place ?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527448#Comment_118527448

”Don’t use your vehicle as a people-battering ram”?

"All of a sudden it moved to the street and no sooner than they reached the street than a driver came and hit both of them.

"We were all shocked and shouting and my heart goes out to the families of this fatal incident.

"This is something one sees in movies, not in real life."

Detective Chief Inspector Jim Eastwood, of the Met's Specialist Crime Command, added: "This was a terrible incident that occurred in broad daylight on a busy London street.

"It also appears that a number of members of the public bravely tried to intervene to stop the attack."

The families of the man and woman who died have now been told.

(bold emphasis my own)

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/maida-vale-woman-stabbed-to-death-and-man-killed-by-car-in-in-west-london-street-12524428

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527522#Comment_118527522

It also says the woman was stabbed to death. That part about hitting both of them strikes me as odd. How should men in the vicinity have helped vs a knife attacker?

john123470

From bystander reports, it seemed the knifeman was able to keep the men who were trying to help at bay with the knife

The driver tried to remonstrate with the attacker .. then used his car as a last resort

”Don’t use your vehicle as a people-battering ram”?

Yep, its,easy to call it from behind safety of a keyboard. I am sure the guy has best intentions .. ie to save the woman's life ..

I doubt his intentions were to kill both people

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527527#Comment_118527527

Now I’m not sure if you’re asking me the question, or if it’s a rhetorical question by which the answer would seem obvious.

The way @john123470 presented it, the post read as though a man is being charged with murder for coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked.

That was clearly not the case. He is not being charged with murder for coming to the aid of a woman who was being attacked.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527584#Comment_118527584

You asked this question -

What kind of message does this send out to bystanders who are urged to get involved - to risk life and limb when an assault is taking place ?

It’s not just an easy call from behind the safety of a keyboard, it’s an easy call from behind the safety of a steering wheel too - don’t do it.

You make like that’s an unreasonable idea, whereas for most people I would imagine it’s quite an easy idea to understand.

john123470

" ..Horror on the school-run: Police arrest driver, 26, for murder after knifeman was run over and killed to stop frenzied attack on woman who died from stab wounds in west London street .."

Ah ok, he's wanted for a previous murder.

Right

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527674#Comment_118527674

No john - you’re reading that wrong. He isn’t wanted for a previous murder, and he hasn’t been charged with anything. He was arrested on suspicion of murder, as part of an ongoing investigation into the incident.

john123470

You're the type that will argue day is night. So, i'll end the back and forth right here.

My point stands - this is not the first time a good Samaritan ends up being charged with assault or - as you prefer it in this case - placed "under suspicion of murder" ..

The message it sends out is ''Don't get involved / Mind your own business"

.. you say " It’s not just an easy call from behind the safety of a keyboard, it’s an easy call from behind the safety of a steering wheel too - don’t do it .."

- hhmm, if that were your arse on the ground being stabbed to death, i'm sure you'd be able to raise a feeble, bloody hand and stop that motorist right in his tracks. Don't do it !!"

Lols

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527794#Comment_118527794

Your point doesn’t stand. It never stood, and you couldn’t have picked a worse example to portray your own narrative of a Good Samaritan being charged with murder for coming to the aid of a woman being attacked.

Look at your own post above and how you attempted to portray it -

One of the 3 men who tried to stop this attack on the woman this morning is now charged with murder ..

I know that doesn’t happen, so I looked up the incident that was being referred to only after I read your post, and guess what? It didn’t happen!

That’s not arguing night is day, that’s telling you straight out you’re talking out your rear end. Problem is, some people actually will believe you.

BTW - I didn’t miss the way you switched the scenario either in suggesting that if I had been the victim, I wouldn’t be telling someone not to run over another person with their car. Does the phrase ‘unlawful killing’ mean anything to you? It’s why I wouldn’t advocate anyone taking the law into their own hands -

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/four-men-took-law-into-their-own-hands-by-attacking-teen-who-had-witnessed-the-unlawful-killing-of-their-friend-41273345.html

That’s why the driver was arrested on suspicion of murder, his arrest wasn’t as a consequence of being a Good Samaritan and trying to come to the aid of a woman who was being attacked. He was arrested on suspicion of murder as part of an investigation into the unlawful killing of two people.

I wouldn’t mind but this is a thread about the media and “male violence” and the shìtty narratives the media portrays of men, and then you come out with that nonsense!

One eyed Jack

Christ almighty, this is why I don’t go looking for this stuff. I was just reading that link I’d shared from the Independent earlier, and this case was also reported on.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/teacher-who-raped-his-little-brother-when-they-were-children-is-jailed-41273333.html

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527835#Comment_118527835

He said that they were charged for getting involved. Not that they were simply on the scene. Both of you are being inaccurate in your claims.

Now, honestly, I have no idea why you're all deciding to try support one side or another. Most of the news reports suggest that a man, known to the victim, attacked her (somehow), they moved into the street, where they were both hit by a driver. None of the reports (that I've seen) say that the driver tried to help the woman. The driver has been taken in for hitting the two people, but nothing about the driver being involved. There were witnesses but nobody else was actually involved. I've looked at four different media reports... and none of them support this argument that's going on here.

I understand the desire to use real world example to support your positions, but this is not one of them... at least in regards to the thread topic. Except, for the aspect of a male attacking a woman. (but even there, details are sparse). Surely there are better examples of male violence or men being done for intervening, than this one?

john123470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528818#Comment_118528818

"The driver has been taken in for hitting the two people, but nothing about the driver being involved. There were witnesses but nobody else was actually involved. I've looked at four different media reports... and none of them support this argument that's going on here .."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/maida-vale-deaths-stabbing-london-b1999389.html

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/maida-vale-stabbing-live-updates-22851841

"The Met Police announced this afternoon that the driver - a 26-year-old man - had been arrested on suspicion of murder. At the same time as announcing the arrest, they praised the have-a-go-heroes who "bravely tried to intervene to stop the attack".

3. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/met-launches-urgent-inquiry-into-double-killing-in-maida-vale-ljmkcqdf2

John Simpson, Crime Correspondent

Monday January 24 2022, 6.45pm GMT, The Times

A driver said to have run over and killed a knifeman to save a woman from being stabbed to death in broad daylight has been arrested for murder.

A car hit a hooded man armed with a large knife after passers-by tried in vain to stop him hacking at the woman in the street in west London at 9am today, witnesses said."

"I've looked at four different media reports... and none of them support this argument that's going on here .."

@klaz

.. a bit selective in our reading - were we, Sir ?

The Times, Independent and London News beg to differ with you.

What were you reading 'The Onion ?

A trip to Specsavers, p'raps ?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528818#Comment_118528818

Except, for the aspect of a male attacking a woman.

And this, from @john123470 earlier:

From bystander reports, it seemed the knifeman was able to keep the men who were trying to help at bay with the knife

The driver tried to remonstrate with the attacker .. then used his car as a last resort

That certainly qualifies as being relevant to the thread topic, if the thread topic is how the media reports on cases or incidents of men committing violent acts?

I just don’t use the term “male violence”, as it implies violent behaviour towards others is an intrinsic biologically determined trait of boys and men, which is BS.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528956#Comment_118528956

What were you reading 'The Onion ?

I looked at SkyNews, BBC, and a few of the other main media outlets. And no, not being selective in my reading. The myLondon article provides a lot more info than the other articles I saw. Cheers.

A trip to Specsavers, p'raps ?

hmm... What's up with the need to be a dick?

john123470

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528968#Comment_118528968

"hmm... What's up with the need to be a dick?"

No offence intended - simply that major UK publications and live witnesses on the ground disagree with your conclusions

One gets exasperated that good men can put their lives /welfare on the line to help "damsels in distress" and then have their heroic actions summarily dismissed.

This tragedy is very pertinent in light of recent discussions. It shows that "your average man on the street" does care about the welfarw of those around him

Most men are honest, caring people and painting them all as potential rapists / objects of fear for women is simply unacceptable

john123470

Actually Klaz, having read several of your posts on different threads, you come across as one of the more level headed posters on this site

Sorry if my language came across as rude

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118528994#Comment_118528994

One gets exasperated that good men can put their lives /welfare on the line to help "damsels in distress" and then have their heroic actions summarily dismissed.

One has to have a debilitating persecution complex if one is so easily exasperated at the idea of journalists and talking heads making wildly stupid sweeping statements which are intended to provoke a response. The obvious danger in promoting the actions of “have-a-go hero” types is that it encourages vigilante behaviour. It’s not that anyone is dismissive of their actions, it’s that their actions are liable to lead to unintended consequences up to and including further loss of life, which they will absolutely be held responsible for by law, as has happened in this case.

This tragedy is very pertinent in light of recent discussions. It shows that "your average man on the street" does care about the welfarw of those around him

Most men are honest, caring people and painting them all as potential rapists / objects of fear for women is simply unacceptable

People are already aware that your average man on the street cares about the welfare of those around him. That’s not what anyone is critical of or complaining about. People are already aware that most men, the men they know, the men in their lives, are honest, caring people, and that painting any man as a potential rapist, object of fear, isn’t just unacceptable - it’s irrational, unreasonable, and just plain stupid. That’s precisely why most people ignore journalists and talking heads making wildly sweeping statements which are intended to provoke a response.

The only really, really wild, irresponsible, and unjustifiable comment I can think of in recent memory of the kind of sweeping generalisation attempting to associate boys and men with violent behaviour towards girls and women was Dr. Cliona Saidlear’s comments in the wake of studies done which showed a growing trend of younger people committing sexual offences in Ireland, and her conclusion and recommendations speaking as the Executive Director of Rape Crisis Network Ireland, was this -

Dr Cliona Saidlear said young girls need to be made aware that young boys who sit with them in the classroom can also be a danger.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/a-boy-in-class-could-be-a-danger-girls-warned-of-sex-abuse-37969829.html

Fortunately, people are rational and aren’t so easily given to pearl-clutching, even in light of recent tragic events, nor are they so easily given to a persecution complex in which they portray themselves as the real victim who is exasperated when someone says something so monumentally stupid, that it isn’t even worth entertaining. I’d suggest to anyone feeling that way in those circumstances might do well to chill out a bit tbh, rather than making everything about themselves.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118527615#Comment_118527615

The car was found on top of the attacker which suggests to me that perhaps the driver was trying to help by using his car and may have inadvertently hit the woman. He was arrested on suspicion of murder.

Isn’t this what people have been asking for? For men to take responsibility and help women? I couldn’t think of any way of engaging a knife wielding attacker unless I have some bigger weapon.

From sky news

A 26-year-old driver has been arrested on suspicion of murder after he allegedly ran over a knife attacker who had stabbed a woman in the street.

One witness said he was attacking a woman and the confrontation moved into the road, where they were both hit by a car.

Witnesses tried to intervene to save the 43-year-old woman but she was fatally injured by the attacker, police said

Firefighters managed to free the man from underneath the car, but despite the efforts of paramedics, both people were declared dead at the scene.

In fact multiple outlets are now running with something along the lines of ‘vigilante runs over knife attacker’. Why is he not being called a hero for taking responsibility?

This was reported in the sun:

’Someone arrived in a car who wanted to help her and he hit the attacker with the car and tried to get him to stop.

"The man who arrived in the blue car, which was a Renault, was scared about what happened. We spoke to each other and he tried to stop the guy with the knife.’

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529056#Comment_118529056

I’ll just explain in advance that I know full well you didn’t mean it the way it sounded, and this is by no means a laughing matter, but when you said “the car was found on top of the attacker”, my first thought was “well it didn’t get there on it’s own!”

Everyone is acutely aware of just how the car got there, which is why the man was arrested on suspicion of murder. Everyone too wants people to help when they see people in trouble, or in distress, or being attacked. What nobody wants, is further unintentional loss of life, because they will live with the consequences of their actions for the rest of their own lives, and knowing they are responsible for taking someone’s life is right up there for most people in terms of things they’ve done that they can’t live with. Nobody wants for that to happen, to anyone. It’s precisely for this reason that the concept of unlawful killing exists in law - as both a preventative measure and a punishment for anyone who unlawfully kills another person.

I’d suggest that the reason anyone doesn’t see his actions as heroic is because they don’t imagine that his actions were heroic. It’s not that anyone thinks he isn’t taking responsibility for trying to help, it’s that the consequences of his actions in this particular case, led to further loss of life, which is not something to be lauding as heroic.

What people are asking for, and have always been demanding, is actions to prevent anyone who intends to cause other people harm from doing so. Nobody was asking anyone to take actions which would mean causing other people to be hurt, intentionally, recklessly or otherwise. That’s not justice, it’s vengeance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529061#Comment_118529061

You were trying to make out that this driver didn’t have the intention of helping the woman. Don’t deflect with unfounded accusations of it being a laughing matter, I made no such inference. My point was that his intention was clearly to hurt the attacker, he didn’t just randomly hit into the two.

It’s not vengeance when the motorist was trying to help a woman who is being attacked with a knife. He was trying to prevent her from being murdered. It’s not justice either but it’s something that will happen all more frequently after the media campaigns following the Sarah Everett and Aisling Murphy murders.

More men will feel compelled to act in such situations, like most men would have anyway. There is no way to prevent such crimes without minority report type future vision. If the woman had lived I have no doubt he would have gone down as a hero. Some media outlets are reporting him as such.

The daily mail have a quote from bystanders who were trying to help, Raad Jiyad and his wife.

“Mr Jiyad said the driver's actions were heroic and described how he himself tried to save the woman: 'I tried to speak to her as she was bleeding and held her as she took her last breath. I have blood on my hand from it.'

’'I think the driver was just trying to buy time to distract him.'

His wife, who asked not be named, added: 'The driver wasn't driving very fast but nothing could take the guy from the lady. The driver was the only one who could do anything.'”

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529073#Comment_118529073

It was beside the point, which is why I explained that it was beside the point and that I knew exactly what you meant. It wasn’t an attempt to deflect from anything, and certainly not an attempt to deflect from your point that his intention was to save the woman’s life by stopping the man from causing her any further injury.

It IS vengeance, the very definition of vengeance being irrational actions driven by an emotional response to an unjust act. I agree with you that it IS something which we will see happen more frequently as a result of the media campaigns following the killing of Sarah Everett and Aisling Murphy, and instead of being hailed as heroes, the people who engage in that sort of behaviour are likely to find themselves deprived of their liberty, not to mention the consequences of their actions for their families, friends and the wider community.

It’s why when most men are compelled to act in such situations, it is even more important that they don’t allow their emotions to get the better of them, lose self-control, and the idea occurs to them to stop the attacker by any means possible, because that’s not even justifiable as self-defence which is a defence permitting the use of reasonable force in defence of oneself or another, in this particular case, the woman who was being attacked.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-defence_in_English_law

There are ways to prevent such crimes, but it would be unreasonable to expect all such crimes could be prevented. What certainly can be done however, is that we aim to ensure that they occur far less frequently though through intervention and prevention policies as opposed to discussing circumstances after the fact as if that would change what has already happened.

Any such policies can only prevent people from committing criminal acts in the future. Such policies require the buy-in of everyone in society, it’s how our system of justice functions, as opposed to hailing men who commit violence as heroes because vengeance, mob justice and retribution is easier to justify as a means of achieving more immediate justice in an age of digital and social media where the justice system is perceived to be failing. Such short-sighted actions based upon emotional responses does society no good whatsoever in the long term, and it doesn’t do men any favours against the argument that men are perceived as being violent thugs incapable of keeping their emotions in check.

I agree with you that it IS something which we will see happen more frequently as a result of the media campaigns following the killing of Sarah Everett and Aisling Murphy, and instead of being hailed as heroes, the people who engage in that sort of behaviour are likely to find themselves deprived of their liberty, not to mention the consequences of their actions for their families, friends and the wider community.

Its an important point worth noting. I’m not condoning this behaviour exactly but what else are people to do.

The motorist was actively trying to stop the murderer from more stabbing. She wasn’t dead when he hit the attacker. This idea of retribution and vengeance seems very unnecessary. This case seems to be about trying to stop an active attacker, not seeking vengeance after a death.

If you had some suggestions for policies that could prevent these attacks I’m sure most people would be on board, things that don’t deprive decent, innocent people of their liberties such as some of the suggestions that men need a licence to socialise. I’m a pragmatic person and I keep an eye out for solutions to such problems but I must say there has been a lack of real suggestions.

I can see men reacting more when they see these things but how else are they supposed to help? All men that I know are furious about what happened to Aisling Murphy, a friend of mine when I questioned, ‘are you sure they have the right guy’? Told me ‘I don’t care if it’s his cousin’ What could any of them have done to stop the murder? I think you and I both know there is nothing. Unless by chance one of them was walking by at the right opportune time to stop the attacker.

seamus

I'm confused as to what the argument is here.

If you intentionally kill someone else, you will be arrested on suspicion of murder. Standard process. Can't have people going around killing each other. Circumstances are irrelevant.

If after investigating, the police are sufficiently convinced that the motivation was defence, you will be released without charge. Most likely they will hand it over to the CPS/DPP to decide whether to prosecute.

If the CPS/DPP decide to proceed, then you have the opportunity in court to defend yourself. Defence is a pretty clad-iron defence against murder provided you can show that your response was reasonable.

In this case, there's a big complicating factor; if the post-mortem finds that the collision with the car was a significant cause in the woman's death, he could find himself on the hook for that too.

Are people trying to say the driver shouldn't have been arrested. A handshake, "Well done lad" and sent on his way?

Two people are dead. One way or another that has to be fully and properly investigated.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529117#Comment_118529117

I don’t know enough about the specifics of the incident in England to offer any particular insight that would be of any use in that case tbh, and I hope you’ll appreciate that I’m very reluctant to comment at all on the killing of Aisling Murphy for the simple reason that I don’t want to imagine I contributed in any way to his defence arguing that his right to a fair trial was prejudiced by coverage and commentary on social media.

With regards to suggestions for policies that could prevent these attacks - more visible community policing would be a good start, more legislation and curbing of peoples freedoms is not going to do shìt, IMO, nor is the idea of more “education” - if someone gets to a point in their lives after at least 16 years of education, and still imagines they’re above the law, that person isn’t going to give a shìt for what the law does or doesn’t permit them to do. I was going to give an example, but it’s before the Courts so all I can say is CCTV isn’t worth a shìt - the authorities need to be visible, and they need the general public to be proactive in reporting any concerns. I’m probably just as pragmatic as you are, so I know that such measures cost an enormous amount of money, time, resources and most of all - political will. Instead, unfortunately what it appears we’ll be getting from the way politicians are talking, is education and legislation, which will do fcukall to prevent criminal behaviour.

There’s two things I will say though about the idea of people having to apply for a license to socialise - he can fcuk off with that idea, it’s just too stupid, but knowing opportunistic politicians as I do, the idea could still get legs.

As for the idea of women and girls now being in fear of their lives, I’d be calling BS on that idea too as while it might be that there are a minority of women and girls who have become increasingly paranoid about their safety in light of recent events, or even events that have happened throughout their lifetimes, that’s a phenomenon which can and should only be considered and addressed at an individual level, through counselling if necessary, because it’s a completely irrational mindset which dependent upon the degree to which it impacts upon their lives, it absolutely can be debilitating. I’m not dismissing their concerns, I’m saying that their concerns are not sufficient justification for introducing measures that will do fcukall to reassure them that they are free as anyone else to participate in society.

By way of example, earlier tonight I’d to go to the local small shop for a pack of smokes. I was approaching the shop and there were young ones literally out the door and all over the footpath, on the road. Eventually managed to weave my way through them (once I’d gotten over the paranoia of catching covid off any of ‘em). I’m a fat bastard so wasn’t easy, got to the door and I know the guy doing security, so I just joked with him that I’d have showered before leaving home if I’d known the place was going to be this packed!

The idea that any women or girls are in any way in fear of their lives was quickly dispelled, specially when waiting in the queue and all I want is a pack of smokes, and I’m getting squashed and squeezed among a load of young ones that are only there for the after-club analysis. I was only grateful I’d the earphones in because they didn’t care for the “fcuk off!” expression on my face 😒

Running over someone with a car is not 'reasonable force'

If he had used reasonable force in his defence of another person he saw being assaulted, he would still be questioned, but wouldn't be charged. It's fairly certain that knocking two people over with a car and killing them is more than reasonable force.

zv2

"Dr Cliona Saidlear said young girls need to be made aware that young boys who sit with them in the classroom can also be a danger."

Just when I thought it had reached rock bottom and could not get more hysterical. Does she not know what a statistical wrinkle is? If a woman sees a 2 year old male child in a pram coming towards her - time go get out the Mace.

BrianD3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118529445#Comment_118529445

What's reasonable force to stop someone with a knife who is stabbing someone.

Real life is not a movie - Chuck Norris is not going to wade in to save the day with his bare hands and restrain an attacker until the police arrive.

There is a reason reality based self protection training (e.g. Lee Morrison's stuff) teaches people to run the fcuk away if someone produces a knife. If someone does decide to intervene to assist another person who is being stabbed, running the attacker over with a car would be a sensible approach. Where it would stray past reasonable force would be if the attacker was already down and they decided to finish him off by reversing over him.