Irish language gets full EU status today

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433988#Comment_118433988

You ask me to be honest...frankly downcow, at this stage I take everything you say about where you live, who your multiple conveniently endorsing nationalist friends are etc etc with a grain of salt.

If steddyeddy has picked up something ambiguous in what you have said the wrong way, let the two of you work it out. You have a habit of saying stuff and backing away from it when challenged and blaming the challenger.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434207#Comment_118434207

Now I know where I stand. Always good to know where you stand.

so steddyeddy it’s put up or shut up. You tell me I am lying about the makeup of my area. Let’s have the evidence posted?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433914#Comment_118433914

I think most people would agree that Co Down is both in Ireland and in the UK.

While there is a state called Ireland which doesn't cover the whole of the island, people don't use the word Ireland to refer to that state except in official contexts. I suspect you know this and are just trying to wind us up. To be honest there is no worthwhile discussion possible when we get down to this sort of linguistic mumbojumbo.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434382#Comment_118434382

It was just the predictable deflection, indulged when the argument hits the end of the cul de sac.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118434382#Comment_118434382

Well I have been scolded here for calling it roi I have been corrected several times and told the country is Ireland.

I like the fact I live on the island of Ireland but it is important to me to be clear which I am talking about. Read the post again that I was responding to and you will see that the poster knows exactly what he is doing.

i don’t know anyone in my community who would describe themselves as living ‘in Ireland’. We would certainly say we live ‘on’ the ‘island of Ireland’.

I will try using ROI for a while but will expect to be told that I ‘can’t even respect the country enough to give it its correct name’ or ‘what has a football team got to do with this thread’. I have had them both several times.

remember I have been in trouble on this very thread for reminding people of the archipelago that we all live on

so just remember we look at this from different angles

ps YOUR language is also key. You say that everyone would agree that County Down both in the Uk and in Ireland. In my view when you say ‘in Ireland’ you are referring to a country. I don’t think anyone would say they live in the American continent, they would say on the American continent and in the USA rather than on the USA. But I guess you knew that and were just trying to wind me up

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431232#Comment_118431232

I'm atypical, and my "mongrel" background is a strong influence on that, so I wouldn't want people to think that my experience or my take is representative of people generally with an interest in the Irish language. Having said that, I do know many who'd agree with me. Right now though, I'm thinking of one Gaeilgeoir who learned the language in the 80s and 90s while being housed compulsorily by Her Majesty - and who is more passionate than anyone I've met about the need to listen to unionists and loyalists, and in particular to listen most closely to the opinions we find hardest to hear.

I think there's a lot of similarity between the positions people take in a divided society and those we take in debates in cyberspace - as in this cartoon.

If a load of them others think a thing, that thing must be wrong. And what becomes more important than the thing itself is how we set it up as a symbol of the "other", or more accurately, an external representation of our own fears about the other and about ourselves. I remember reading somewhere (fecked if I can find a reference now) that we choose what and who we love, and of course we choose what and who we hate. I believe we can choose what to find offensive or what not to find offensive, which of course means that if we choose not to find something offensive, it makes it much harder for our ill-wishers to offend us.

As far as I know, Linda Ervine was introduced to Irish in an introductory course run under the auspices of the Methodist Church in the 00s, having never spoken the language before. She went on to set up short courses in the language, and is currently studying for a degree in the subject. As she said herself, you can use Irish to say "ná géillimis" (no surrender) or "tiocfaidh ár lá".

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432066#Comment_118432066

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431192#Comment_118431192

Self declared indeed, I can see how that would be perceived as a tautology on my part. What is the Irish word for tautology by the way, if there is one? Anyway, my essential point is that stats on Irish language speakers are based on a self declared ability to speak, not measured ability to speak. There has always been the charge of inflation of numbers as a result. Nonetheless, the same (albeit self declared(!)) data on use of Irish on a daily basis, outside an educational setting, was 78000 or 1.4% of the population. About 50,000 of those reside in Gaeltacht areas and Dublin/Cork city, leaving 28,000 approx for the rest of the country.

I was surprised therefore to read that one locality, I believe in a region with the lowest self declared proficiency in Irish at any level, has witnessed a spontaneous outbreak of daily usage of the language. Assuming the reporter is not under a misapprehension, it is a remarkable story. One that should be enthusiastically received and studied by those of us with an interest in growing the language. I wonder what made the difference?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431758#Comment_118431758

Thanks for the link. I was on a flight to Copenhagen years ago in the days when complimentary tea and coffee was still a thing. I thought I heard a steward speaking to me in Scots (or mixed Scots and English) when he asked if we wanted "Mere te? Mere kaffe?"

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435332#Comment_118435332

The point about 28,000 people speaking the language on a daily basis in the "rest of the country" is a fairly simple one: it has to do not with overall numbers, but density of (known) speakers. The population density in Ireland is low outside the cities, and unless you know person X or Y or Z speaks Irish you are not likely to strike up a conversation on the off chance. So you need to a) know the person, b) know that they speak Irish and c) interact with them on a fairly frequent basis if you are to become a "daily speaker".

Of course it could be easier than it currently is, but I'm describing how it is at present.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435332#Comment_118435332

Athluaiteachas. Luaigh is the verb to mention. Luaiteachas is the act of making mention. Ath- means to repeat.

Everything in the Census that is self-declared is - at the risk of athluaiteachas - based solely on the declaration of the person completing the Census form, and not on external measurement.

You made your point. You made it badly. Now you're having changing your angle and having another go. As I mentioned to the OP earlier, regardless of the starting point, all of these debates collapse into the same end point of blinkered people telling us how much they hate Irish. This is your moment, so just let fly. Don't waste time with arguments, because all that matters is your hate, and no matter what is said in reply you'll just find more words to express your hate.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435259#Comment_118435259

In my view when you say ‘in Ireland’ you are referring to a country.

For a nationalist of any stripe, the island is the country. For many of the unionists I know, it is also, just they feel British while living in Ireland and the UK.

Back just over 100 years ago with the exception of the small percentage who lived in "West Britain" the whole population regardless of religion or politics were agreed that they lived in Ireland.

This is all axiomatic, and you already know it so I'm going to leave it there.

Now can we talk about Irish in the EU please as alluded to in the title of the thread?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435332#Comment_118435332

I can speak a smattering of Irish but I said I didn't speak it on the census.

If I am hearing Irish being spoken around me and seeing the GAA initiative and we are 4th lowest...I'll take that as a positive regardless of the snide remarks Finty.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435527#Comment_118435527

What made the difference?

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435527#Comment_118435527

I've been in St Tiernachs Park Clones at a few league matches over the years and I've never heard anyone of the home supporters using Irish. Not once, even when they were roaring at the ref.

Maybe I was in the cheap seats and should have gone to the progressive, middle class section instead?

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435571#Comment_118435571

The club I was talking about Finty...scroll their page, you'll see what I mean.

Killeevan Sarsfields GAA Club (Cumann Peile na Sairsealaigh, Cill Laobhain) | Facebook

Unfortunately I have no recordings of kids conversing with parents, you'll just have to take my word on that...but I guess I'll just get some more snide remarks.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435460#Comment_118435460

Why are you talking about hate? That's certainly uncalled for and you have prejudged/ misjudged my point. That was simply that we should look at the situation objectively, using controlled measures, and not allow wishful thinking about what we want to happen cloud our view.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435630#Comment_118435630

Your hate is in your snideness Finty. Loud and clear.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435674#Comment_118435674

Worrying that anyone who questions the pre-determined narrative is accused of hate. A totalitarian approach to debate.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435837#Comment_118435837

I gave my personal experience, you dissed it from the get go. Away up the yard now trying to talk nonsense about 'pre-determined' narratives.

Like a few others here, you'd cut off your nose rather than have the shinners or people you hate succeed in rescuing your language.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435870#Comment_118435870

The last line reveals the true nature of your intent to commandeer the language for a narriw. political narrative.

But if you insist on making claims of one party 'rescuing' a language, please remember, every Gaelscoil in the state has been built by FF or FG governments. FF enshrined the language in the constitution. FF delivered EU official status. The national radio and TV stations delivered as Gaeilge were founded under FF or FG governments. The promotion of Irish in the primary school system was devised by FF. All the Gaeltacht economic programmes in place were put there by FF. The success or otherwise of these initiatives is a separate matter, but the 'progress' you report in your region has been brought to you by your FF government. Enjoy.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436210#Comment_118436210

Typical, willfully miss the word 'or' in the sentence and go on a 'predetermined' fantasy run. It isn't FF and FG money and it certainly wasn't FF and FG activism that propelled the Gael Scoil movement.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118435485#Comment_118435485

Well there we are. If you say it then it must be right.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436233#Comment_118436233

No party invests their own money, they invest citizens' money. Thus it has ever been. But FF and FG instituted all the policies that have successfully grown the language, like you said.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436470#Comment_118436470

Yeh, tell that to my local GS which spent 15 years in a rodent infested portacabin pleading for funding. Yes Finty...citizens money.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436485#Comment_118436485

For years your local GS didn't meet the pupil numbers requirements to secure funding Francie, it wasn't government discrimination no matter how how wish to portray it. However, large sums were spent by your ETB on new buildings for primary and secondary gaelscoilanna in neighbouring towns.

Ah, that's much better. 😊

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436880#Comment_118436880

That seems strange when all the kids were running around speaking Irish in francies locality. mmmmm that might explain his belief that Irish signs are going up all over the north without controversy. All is becoming clear.

Finty Lemon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437740#Comment_118437740

There are probably more native Ullans speakers than native Irish speakers in that part of the country. But still, it is great to hear that the Irish language is beginning to flourish. Lessons to be learned for the nation as a whole. I must visit in the summer to witness for myself.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118436880#Comment_118436880

I wonder where regulations came from that ensured that the school would not be approved for funding? From on high, or from D2?

It's an important question because if the regulations were changed there would be a lot more Gaelscoileanna around. However successive governments have created a system with a series of checks that make it difficult to get a Gaelscoil up and running. This involves jumping through a range of hoops for funding, as well as a system whereby trained teachers with fluency in Irish are often not available at primary level. At secondary level things are much worse because Galway University no longer bothers to teach a wide range of courses through Irish, meaning that teachers have to train themselves post graduation in order to be able to teach in a Gaelcholáiste.

This series of bottlenecks - each of which chokes the growth of the Gaelscoil movement - did not come into existence on its own. Decisions had to be made somewhere that brought each of these situations into existence.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118437788#Comment_118437788

In County Monaghan? I wonder if you realise that it is one of the three counties in Ulster that were not planted during the Plantation of Ulster?