Irish language gets full EU status today

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430996#Comment_118430996

Very interesting. Again some posters own personal experience or fantasy runs contrary to the stats.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431163#Comment_118431163

I have my own particular view of supports for the Irish language, which I'd extend to minority languages generally. For that reason I'm not all that concerned about communities and their politics, and my take on language and cultural supports wouldn't be based on such politics. My interest in Ullans is because I know a lot of Scottish people (mainly from central Scotland) and I've been listening to "Broad Scots" for decades, so I just find the words and phrases hugely interesting. A lot of people still regard Scots as a dialect of English, whereas linguistically both are evolutions of Middle English, which means the relationship of Scots to English is more akin to the relationship of Gaeilge to Manx (Gaelg) or Scottish Gaelic (Gàidhlig).

I know quite a few people, including both great fans and great enemies of the Irish language, who regard things like traditional music, Irish dancing and GAA sports as more valid and germane cultural markers of "Irishness". I don't agree. Irish traditional music is Scottish traditional music with some modifications, and the same can be said for dancing - or maybe it's the other way round, but there's feck all there that either the Irish or the Scots can claim to be uniquely theirs. GAA was invented at the same time as a lot of other sports were being codified, especially football, so the sports are effectively Victorian creations, and any differences between them and other sports invented in that era are nothing more than happenstance.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431032#Comment_118431032

Everything on the Census is self-declared.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431190#Comment_118431190

nice to hear your love for minority languages. That’s helpful for me to hear. I hated languages in school (even English) so maybe I was laying too much on Irish speakers, thinking that it must be tied up with their politics etc. Clearly it is for many and no one could argue that sf and the ira massively politicise and indeed weaponise the language. That is sad.

I guess my community need to engage more and be exposed more to people like you. I attend an optician based in an Irish language centre and when I enter it feels very alien. You may find this shocking but I would feel awkward if any of my unionist community saw me enter it - Maybe what a local nationalist would feel going in to use the credit union in the orange hall. Same feeling as I would have going into the GAA club. In areas like mine our only real engagement with the language is the bitter battle over signage, shinners election posters and derogatory graffiti aimed at intimidating us. I am sure there is more out there but I don’t see it (or maybe I avoid it, who knows).

you even see it in this thread from the same sort of posters. It’s became a battle even on here. Not an inch, no understanding of the other. And I include myself in that as I have got drawn in. If anything. This thread demonstrates why it is such a controversial issue with those on both sides who allow us to let it.

anyhow I appreciate the posters on here who have gave me an insight into how many love the language without the need to laud it over others or use it in the struggle.

we have a long way to go in the north.

I was thinking about Linda Ervine and wondering about her path. Did she grow up in a very unionist community with zero exposure to Irish, and then when she encountered it was it with people who just loved the language , with no struggle attached. I didn’t get that chance. I grew up surrounded by all the worst aspects of it and it was part of ‘the war’.

Maybe the battle now needs to be internal in nationalist community. How are they going to express/expose the generation of unionists younger than me. If people like you win that battle then there is real hope of unionists embracing it. If people like some of the posters on here win that battle then there is not a hope of young unionists cooperating with its public expression.

is this where we are headed ie that there will have to be police units in each area to try to protect the signage https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/11/14/news/psni-nominate-officer-for-reports-of-attacks-on-irish-language-signs-in-mid-ulster-1764998/

….and yet some of the biggest agitators want to argue on here that it’s not controversial and consensus has been reached🤔

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431190#Comment_118431190

Ditto the 'English' language, we speak it differently to the other neighbouring cultures, we have made it our own in that sense.

We are very close in all the things you allude to. We could not fail to be. There is no reason, bar stubbornness and disrespect that all are not treated equally. But it will happen, whether some have to be dragged there kicking and screaming.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431190#Comment_118431190

If you watch much Danish / Swedish noir, you might notice a lot of words that sound familiar to us, one of the first that struck me was 'full' (pronounced something close to "fool") which means drunk, and is the same as NI (possibly all Ireland) slang for being drunk, ie "he's full". This page contains more on the similarities https://esoteriic.com/2017/06/24/the-similarity-between-scottish-and-scandinavian-words/ , might be interesting.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429992#Comment_118429992

You are avoiding the point I was making - I asked if you would be opposed to flags where equal prominence is given to both.

Why didn't you reply to the question instead of avoiding it?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430178#Comment_118430178

I think that if the legislation says 15% is sufficient for a sign in Irish - or ulster scats - then it's not a question of the council having a 'dialogue' - rather it's a question of the council obeying the precepts of the law.

You can be sure that if they don't, there will be a court case forcing them to put up the sign. And most likely in a new vote there will be more than 6 votes in favour if the figures are as you say.

The resulting tension may well lead to some of the minority community in your street deciding to move away in the medium term. If this were to happen - who do you feel would have "won"?

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430910#Comment_118430910

I'm not sure if you are trying to make a point in relation to immigration here, but if you are, I think you are looking in the wrong direction. There has (in the south at any rate) been another huge change in society, and this is the change that has led to FF and FG losing almost half of their previous support.

Now a lot of that support has gone to a nationalist left-of-centre party. Support for the Irish language is one of their policies - so I would guess that the increase in the Gaelscoil population is due to these changes that also express themselves in the political sphere.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431192#Comment_118431192

This is something that people who make that claim always forget.

It's effectively the same as if you were to read that according to the census the average house in Ireland has 5 bedrooms (unlikely, I know) - does that mean that we can automatically subtract 2 because the houses in Finty's street only have 3 bedrooms?

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431156#Comment_118431156

It actually doesn't make much logical sense to have "Down" and "An Dún". It makes more sense to have "An Dún" and "The Fort".

"Down" would need to be kept simply to keep others, like yourself, happy.

"Down" is the only one that makes no logical sense.

Imagine doing what you are saying for a person's name. Someone called "Peter" goes to live in Spain. They cannot pronounce his name so call him "Peto" (which translates to overalls). A few years later he explains he wants to be called his proper name and the Spanish say instead that they will call him both "Peto" and "Roca" because that is what "Peter" means.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431950#Comment_118431950

I am sorry deirdremf. I operate in a strange situation. You will note complaints here https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223439/26-county-forum#latest that I takeover and reply too often. Yet a regular complaint against me is that I don’t respond enough. I have tried to find a balance and I honestly wasn’t meaning to avoid your question.

so on your question. Yes I would be absolutely opposed to equal prominence to Uk flag and roi flag. The gfa was very clear. This is the Uk until majority vote otherwise. So the Uk flag is the official flag. If a vote happens and a UI happens, I think it would be absurd then to ask for the Uk flag to have equal prominence with whatever would become the flag of whatever this new country would be called.

I would like to see the Irish flag respected at all times here

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431986#Comment_118431986

I have already been told by a member of the minority community who is about as liberal and travelled a person I have ever met (who lives in a cul de sac of my road which has recently had Irish signs put up) that he would not have bought his house if he had knew this would happen. He said he would not by a house with the kerbstones painted RW&B or Irish signage up. He said he choose to live in an are that was not labelled one side or other and is pissed off that this has been done now. He also said that he was afraid to vote as his neighbours would find out.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432123#Comment_118432123

I agree with your first points.

the last para has no relevance to this.

Down is not a great example as ‘Down’ is an English word and I agree is meaningless re the county.

that the road Shan Slieve road. I understand that was written like that so as the majority no Irish speakers could pronounce it. It is Irish I think for old mountain. Council etc are trying to tell me that Shan Slieve is English and they want to add the Irish. They have been taken aback when I have pointed out the obvious, that of course it is not English. The English is old mountain. They currently have their knickers in a twist and are not responding.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432269#Comment_118432269

Shan Slieve is not Irish though.

Sean Sliabh is

To say that "Shan Slieve" is Irish would be a bit like putting up "Niu casel" on signs for "Newcastle" so that Spanish visitors could pronounce the name, and then saying that "Niu Casel" is English.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432281#Comment_118432281

We are very close here. You example is reasonable about Newcastle.

I am not saying Shan Slieve is proper Irish. I am saying it is phonetically spelt Irish so as English speakers can pronounce it. Currently Irish can look at it and understand that it is old mountain. The 90% English only speakers don’t have a clue what it means. It’s just words that don’t exist in their language. Yet you are telling me it is more English than Irish and the council want to put another sign beside it explaining the the Irish speakers, who already know, what it means and the 90% English speakers are nothing the wiser

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429322#Comment_118429322

It is indeed. The disgusting fact is that a lot in these communities would rather focus on bigotry than education. Hence the fact that I don't believe they're faux outrage over the Irish protocol, it's unlikely that they have read it.

irelandrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432269#Comment_118432269

Did you ever object to the sign before? Or is it now only a problem because the original Irish name might be put up as well?

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429415#Comment_118429415

You previously said the majority of your road would object to Irish road signs. You're doing the unionist community no favors by posting nonsensical statements like this.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432381#Comment_118432381

You do know what 'dual' in dual language means?

Why would it need to be explained to English speakers, if they want to know what it means let them look it up, same as if you saw a name in Spanish in SPAIN.

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432381#Comment_118432381

Putting up "Sean Sliabh" is not explaining it to Irish speakers. It is using the proper historical name. It just so happens that that name means something. But that is the same with most placenames - even if you are not aware of the origins of them.

You are looking at this from a completely different prism which I think sees anything related to Irish language as either suspicious or an attack. The language is the oldest language in Western Europe. It existed long long before the distinction "Catholic" and "Protestant" came into being.

The name derives from "old mountain". So there is a history there. But the name of the location would represent more than it's origins. "Newcastle" in England is more that just a castle, and that castle is not particularly new! However the origin of the name is still a valuable part of its history.

That place you refer to was likely never called "old mountain". It isn't its name and never was. But it is the translation of the origin/explanation of the name. It would have been called "sean sliabh" and when later newcomers tried to adopt that they spelled it differently. That version has no meaning other than identifying the location by its use. So you can explain the origin as meaning "old mountain" if you want, but "old mountain" was never the name.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432228#Comment_118432228

Well DC that is certainly interesting, but you have already said there are 30 houses on the road, 5 are unionist and 25 nationalist. The original vote was 6 in favour and 5 against, with 19 (probably all and certainly mostly) nationalist.

In the adjoining road where he lives, one of the nats (apparently with a very small N) might now move away, likely to be replaced by a more nationalist type. Still, from your point of view, it must be reassuring to know that some CNRs are not in favour of Irish much - there are quite a few of them in the south too.

On the other hand, a lot of people who came over from Scotland would have spoken Gaelic, essentially a dialect of the same broader language group that Irish also belongs to, and very similar to the original Irish of E and NE Ulster. Then again, quite a few Gaelic Irish in the Downpatrick area also changed religion - the Gracie surname for instance was I think originally Ó Gráinne. What I am getting at here is that a lot of people on both sides of the divide have Gaelic origins, and many unionists would discover this if they cared to scratch away the modern British label pasted on top. This doesn't mean they have to like Irish, but it may allow them/you to be more understanding of their neighbours who want to breathe new life into the language.

While (I'm taking an example I know) Shan Slieve Drive is partly badly-spelt Irish, it is also partly good English. (Your address may not include the word Drive), so replacing this by Seansliabh Drive would not make it Irish either, but a different bastardisation. And finally, the word was never pronounced Sleeve in Ulster - more like shlee-oo, so it's definitely not very phonetic in that area.

steddyeddy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433240#Comment_118433240

Google Downcow and previous comments about where he lives. The demographic breakdown of his area has changed depending on the post and the point being made. It was previously a moderate unionist area.

deirdremf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433384#Comment_118433384

Fair enough, I haven't come across him/her before. But then a lot of people might call Eddie McGrady (who used to be regularly elected in the SE Down area) a moderate unionist!

steddyeddy

Now DC you know the bit quoted below isn't true.

Downcow

I was thinking about Linda Ervine and wondering about her path. Did she grow up in a very unionist community with zero exposure to Irish, and then when she encountered it was it with people who just loved the language , with no struggle attached. I didn’t get that chance. I grew up surrounded by all the worst aspects of it and it was part of ‘the war’.

You previously said you had pleasant experiences when your father used to speak and sing to you in Irish. You stated this and many others in response to people commenting that your experiences are shaped exclusively by bigotry against Irish nationalists.

Drop the false shock. You knew rightly what I meant and tbh my dad who was from your country always referred to it as the soldiers song and his party piece was to sing it in Irish. So I’m not sure what the issue is. Should he not have been allowed to call it the ss or was he wrong?. Is that not it’s name? And if not then where did that come from ?

So what is it? Your dad sang and spoke to you in Irish or you have had zero positive experiences with Irish? Also you stated that Linda Irvine's Irish speaking efforts were and unusual for a unionist yet you described your dad as as a staunch unionist who spoke Irish. So could you set us straight?

I take no offence at your posts about unionism rather I take offence that your posts change crucial details about your life, your political ideals depending on who you talk to. It would be great for some clarification.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432525#Comment_118432525

I don’t think I said that. If I did it was a typo. Could you show me where I said that

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432541#Comment_118432541

I’m not in Ireland. I am in the Uk

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432542#Comment_118432542

Surely the people who called it “Sean Sliabh" were calling it old mountain in their own language?

therefore it would be really interesting to have that on the name plate along with some of the other stuff.

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433384#Comment_118433384

Now you are just being silly and making stuff up. Could I ask someone like francie who I doubt has ever agreed with me on anything, to directly comment on this. Have I ever implied I live in anything other that a very dominantly nationalist/republican area?

downcow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118433748#Comment_118433748

Well I am starting to take offence at how you are twisting my posts. If the republicans posting here have integrity then they will challenge this wind up nonsense of yours.

I have said how my father had a extremely negative experience of learning Irish in Donegal. The very fact he was able to shock family and friends with his rendition of the ss should tell you that we knew no one else who could have done it.

I can’t answer this for you but you need to examine why you feel the need to try and undermine my integrity.