ESRI confirms Irish welfare dependent population is TWICE that of Germany or France

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343349#Comment_118343349

Could just reduce welfare...

This whole Living wage / minimum wage, great in theory, but it just increases the cost of living for everyone, leaving everyone in the same position they were to start with when things level out.

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343691#Comment_118343691

Ok, Lets say €10 an hour for 40 hours per week, so € 400 before PAYE PRSI & USC, lets just say they now take €370 home

€ 370 minus € 203 welfare = € 167

As the first € 203 is free, they say why would I work 40 hours for € 167

GSBellew

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343400#Comment_118343400

But every penny came out of the economy in the first place, its not free money, otherwise we could give everyone € 1k per week and all be rich, your take away coffee will be € 25, but we all have loads of cash!!!

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345518#Comment_118345518

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345513#Comment_118345513

funnily enough, giving citizens more money to spend would actually benefit all, as it would increase economic activities, as pup has proven!

money is never free, all money begins its life as debt on someones balance sheet somewhere, most money is created in the private sector, via credit creation, but most of this money is used in inflating asset prices, and since asset ownership is heavily skewed, this financially only truly benefits minorities in society, leading to rising wealth inequality, as we re currently experiencing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345527#Comment_118345527

it depends whats done with this money, if its all spent into the economy, it probably would cause significant inflation, but if some is saved and/or used to service debt, not so much, remembering, the paying off of debt, ultimately leads to the destruction of money

Luxembourgo

Strange how this is never really talked about in politics or media

We are creating generational poverty by moddy coddling those who don't work, buying media support by ruining future generations

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345578#Comment_118345578

its very true, that we simply dont talk about these type of issues, we generally try ridicule and shame the lower classes for simply existing, and try blame them for their situation, but reality is in fact a far more complicated beast, the fact, we just try to maintain the status quo......

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343400#Comment_118343400

Totally agree re medical card. It allows you claim other benefits, like fuel allowance also.

A large section of the long term unemployed are unemployable due to no fault of their own. Many have undiagnosed mental health issues. To cut welfare payments would affect them the most. But, what to do? I don’t have an answer.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345590#Comment_118345590

the root causes of long term unemployment are in fact complex, its incredibly ignorant to say its truly their fault

Luxembourgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345585#Comment_118345585

It would help everyone to try to resolve it.

More encouragement to work means, more tax paid, better role models for their children, more purpose and less resentment on both sides. Now that might not be possible for all, but it's is for alot, these people should be helped.

But like most things that might be hard, so we'll just throw money at the problem to keep people quiet, solving nothing and causing generational issues.

For those caught in poverty, the current systems gives people more reason and aid to stay there than to get out

Shao Kahn

I've said it before, unless you literally GIVE some of these welfare lifers a job, they will never go and get one themselves.

And this is including every type of long term welfare recipient. Whether they are just lazy and unmotivated, or have no confidence or ability to sell themselves to prospective employers. They are the undesirables in society, and therefor most will never be prime candidates for a job.

Making them go through the normal channels for a job like everyone else, is a bit pointless for many of them. You're just setting them up for failure every time. And many of them know this, or figure it out pretty quickly, so they just give up and live on benefits.

In this country, we have an arrogant attitude towards employment. We're happy to give people free money and houses for life, with all the associated social consequences of this, but handing someone a job they didn't earn is against our cultural norms.

But this is exactly what you have to do, if you want to turn many of these people into productive members of society.

We have the equation completely ar$eways in this country. We expect a dole lifer, to suddenly wake up one day and become this impressive highly employable person. Despite having no experience of living this way. (and maybe having bad role models early in life too). And if they are unable to make this leap, then we look down our nose and sneer at them.

Possibly because in our very recent history, we were a poor country. So having any sort of job, made you an impressive respectable person. We still seem to view a "job" as being this highly prestigious status in society.

But there is a difference between just having a "job", and having a career. Just like there is a difference between just having a "roof over your head" or living in a nice expensive house.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should be handed a prestigious career position that they didn't earn. That's something different entirely. I would draw a very big distinction between those two things - like they do in other countries.

This arrogant attitude to employment, also extends to property and housing. This is why you have the working poor, who struggle to put a basic roof over their heads.

It's a really bad mark of the society we are building. There shouldn't be anything exceptional about just having a basic job, with a livable income. Or being able to afford a basic roof over your head. You shouldn't need to be an exceptional person to achieve these basic things in life.

I would use the analogy of the child learning to ride a bike.

The best way for lifers on the dole, to become reliable and employable people in society, is to give them opportunities without the expectation that they need to be perfect right away. You acknowledge that they are going to struggle and screw up quite a bit in the beginning, until they learn how to become more reliable.

If you only ever give them a job, if they reach the requisite standard from the start, then just like the child on the bike, some of them will never get enough opportunities to reach that point. Some people need to fall off and scrape their knee a few times, before they get the hang of it. But for some reason, we don't take this approach with employment. You're either at a certain standard of employ-ability right away, or you're dumped on the scrapheap of society. Basically unemployable and stuck on benefits for life.

It's a dumb mentality, and we need to radically change our attitudes in this regard.

/rant. :)

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345578#Comment_118345578

What's strange about it?

The media are all leftists here

Murph85

Entire welfare system is a disgrace. It's the softest nanny state in the world. Freeze welfare. Christmas bonus scrapped for unemployed. Welfare related to what you paid In. Cap child benefit. Use all these savings to reduce child care costs etc. The government here dont have the balls to cut welfare, unless there is a big down turn. Inflation is massively devaluing it all the time, even if its frozen. Give as good as free housing to workers first , they take priority on the housing lists, that would change the waster first policy.

Topgear on Dave

Cap child benefit. LOL.

Relax the kaks chief, the number of births is dropping like a stone, soon we'll have excess schools and excess teachers.

Edit: Actually, the price of housing is not helping this either.

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343233#Comment_118343233

You forgot the trampoline... yet the working poor should fork out half their income over a pittance to pay for it... lol ! Goodbye fg... pity there is no taxpayer representing party

Murph85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345970#Comment_118345970

Child benefit is capped in many countries. The only people pumping out kids are the ones that will be massive financial burdens on the state... this line of we need to be having kids.. yes, we womt the working people to be having kids or those with a work ethic...

HBC08

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344702#Comment_118344702

Again,that was my direct experience of a year on the dole.If that was what it was like for me then that's what is was like for others aswell (obviously not all)

Unlike you I understand that different people will have different experiences on the dole, I'm not trying to push an absolute narrative one way or the other because that's dishonest.

malinheader

One massive problem with benefit lifers is the more kids you pump out the more welfare you receive and a better bigger house supplied. Don't worry about rearing them, they are only there to serve a purpose. Sad disgusting but true.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346115#Comment_118346115

It’s not true but don’t let me stop you having a tirade.

child benefit is €140 a MONTH per child, if you have any, you’ll know already that’s not gonna cover even the basics let alone with money left over

and the increase for a qualified child is €35(ish) again, hardly a massive amount and with the added weekly expense of a child in the house; it amounts to very little.

really not sure why y’all complain so much about the welfare being the richest life but continue to work anyway. If being on the doles so great why don’t you also?

Jinglejangle69

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343632#Comment_118343632

Sorry you're wrong, they can stretch it to 1800 euro a month.

Mad_maxx

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346115#Comment_118346115

Moral hazard

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346151#Comment_118346151

Sorry you are the one who is wrong here.

And the reason why I work is probably to do with the ethics I was taught growing up and also watching my mother and father working also.

TefalBrain

A welfare thread started by Fred, imagine my shock.

If you get your timing right and get on HAP etc. then you're about as well off as someone on €40k a year. In my town it's about 1200 a month for somewhere on your own. People shouldn't need to make above average wages to be able to live somewhere by themselves. Where I am a quarter of cases already get the "maximum" 20% top up on their advertised HAP payment. Just keeps pushing up rents for those of us who have to pay them.

Rent - 1300 a month

Medical card - 50 a month

Dole - 900 a month (without fuel allowance)

Just those three add up to 27k a year. So you need to be making about €32k a year before tax just to match them. Who in their right mind would work for minimum wage? And even moreso if you have kids, who's going to go out and work full time in a minimum wage job, still go through the application and all for the Working Family Payment just to hopefully break even.

Both my parents used to believe the homelessness nonsense. Between my mother seeing on Facebook what the "homeless" are complaining about and seeing 2 of her kids that went to university and did all the things they were meant to do get little to show for it and planning to move off.

I think one of the better examples I've heard recently was when I was chatted with my sister and she said she'd realised that her friends who never have and never will work are the only ones who can actually afford to have kids. The ones who went to college and did everything "right", absolutely no chance. They're hitting their 30s now and suddenly they're all realising they'll likely never have the stable environment they were hoping to start a family in and are having to bite the bullt.

JimmyCorkhill

The sooner they make those on the welfare contribute to society by working a few hours each week - be it cleaning up litter in the streets, parks etc. or doing admin work for govt. & council departments in return for their welfare payment the better.

The other thing that needs to stop is this prioritisation on building social housing over affordable housing. Yes, both need to be built but affordable housing should be the overwhelming majority. As affordable housing will reward those working who want to own property, whereas social housing for the most part( not all cases but the majority) rewards the scroungers, system players and Sharon who gets up the duff at 16/17.

Like most things in this country, the systems/policies are fundentally broke.

cafflingwunts

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346151#Comment_118346151

When a recently unemployed person who on paper has been nothing but a good taxpaying worker goes to sign on, that person is cajoled, berated, delayed and ultimately bullied in to going back in to employment as soon as possible because the welfare know you have form for working and will go back to it eventually. So they absolutely bombard you with letters to go to this course, that course and consistently spam you with letters and calls wanting to know the intricate details of every interview you went on since you signed on. But do you think they do that with aul Joe Soap down the road who's on the scratcher since he's 18 and is permanantly decked out in head to toe Nike bought with my taxes? Not a chance. They let them sign on and then disappear in to the system. There's never any follow ups when all the letters/emails/calls from the welfare are ignored and they blatantly tell the welfare they haven't gone for a single job interview since they signed on 14 years ago. (Before you tell me I'm wrong, I have close family members who are this person)

It's double standards. Work the slaves to death, celebrate the lazy.

Not a single media outlet in Ireland has covered this yet by the way, at least none I can find on Google. Why?

malinheader

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118346184#Comment_118346184

Your 100% correct. 2 people working and saving for a home will find it very hard to raise children or even have them. But 2 people sitting at home being rewarded for having kids but not really worried about raising them.well we only have to listen to the news every evening to see what is happening in our larger towns and cities.

Monkey see monkey do.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345585#Comment_118345585

The only time I really see any ridicule being directed at lower income groups (no, not lower classes) is on boards.

The media are generally very sympathetic, as is the government. Most people I know have lived on low incomes at various stages in their lives and are also generally very understanding of the situation (except when it comes to Travellers and minority foreign/racial/cultural groups)

No, in all honesty, most comments I hear tend to blame the government for terrible return to work schemes, poor educational options, and general mismanagement which has led to the rental/housing crisis, and overall hikes in cost of living. (and since smokers are well represented in lower income groups, the feeling of being persecuted due to the excessive costs applied). The nanny state approach hasn't helped much to generate independent living... so no, I think most people are well aware that it's government policy that has generated most of these problems rather than assigning blame to the lower income groups.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345503#Comment_118345503

You're making an awful lot of assumptions

I was talking about low paid workers who rely on welfare.

As regards crime. How do we account for all the coke going up the noses of the well to do? Just pointing out its not that clear cut. We have greedy criminals who are wealthy too.

The idea is that if you simply choose not to work you get nothing. Nobody has ever been able to supply the numbers on the numbers who do.

We need welfare. Employers have numbers on their side as regards finding people willing to work for less.

Covid showed us many only did it because they'd no option, not that it was acceptable.

Galwayguy35

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345597#Comment_118345597

Not its not complex at all.

The welfare spend goes up every year in the Budget, €23.2 billion we will spend on welfare in 2022.

Just let that sink in for a minute.

No fear Anto and Jacinta will get out of bed and work when they would lose their medical card, house they pay nothing for, fuel allowence, repairs to their house taken care of free of charge by the council and various other things as well.

Their kids will see Mammy and Daddy having an easy life and do the exact same thing themselves.

Meanwhile those of us on middle income salaries pay for everything and are entitled to nothing, and lets not fool ourselves if SF get in to power they would also reward the dole lifers.

Thats the price you pay for being a welfare state, it started out as a good idea back in the 1950s to help out genuine people who were struggling until they found work but now its just being abused by those too lazy to work.

Brucie Bonus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118345578#Comment_118345578

Complete nonsense. We give welfare were the market fails to provide.

Welfare helps employers find workers they don't want to pay too much.