ESRI confirms Irish welfare dependent population is TWICE that of Germany or France

Fred Cryton · 18-12-2021 5:46pm #1

New ESRI report says around 12% of Irish households containing working age people have no earners and are entirely dependent on the welfare state. This compares with 6% in France, Germany or Sweden, model nations for the Irish left. The equivalent figure in the UK is 8%.

It also blows away the false statistic of Irish unemployment rate of 5% or so pre-Covid. That's 5% of those looking for a job do not currently have one. Not 5% of the entire working age population. There's an enormous non-employed hidden population, comfortable on welfare.

So what is this uniquely Irish phenomenon? The truth is an enormous cohort of Irish are better off on welfare than in low paid work, because welfare is way too high compared with jobs at their appropriate skill level. No wonder there is such a focus on social housing in this country, a huge number of people are expecting the nanny state to take care of them cradle to grave. The system is crying out for thorough reform. And by the way, when was the last time you heard of a welfare to work program from our government? We just seem to accept the situation, it's ridiculous.

growleaves · 18-12-2021 6:01pm

Does that include PUP recipients?

Gatling · 18-12-2021 6:01pm

Social welfare should only ever be a short term safety net ,but our system is a 4 bed front and back garden with comfortable furniture and a duvet ,

There needs to a full review of the whole system from top to bottom ,more people should be made to take up training and employment and not be allowed to have benefits from the cradle to the grave without ever having to make an effort , when you look at it we spend 100bn every 5 years on welfare that's crazy for our population

Damien360 · 18-12-2021 6:03pm

there are 2 types of unemployed. One is quite happy to be on welfare and the other just can’t get out of the trap. One plays the system and the other doesn’t know how. I’ve met both types. The happy on welfare one I know is living pretty well with holidays abroad every year, nice new house paid for by state the other is in poverty and can’t pay to fix their heating system. It won’t change as every time an attempt to at least discuss it, it’s met with nonsense as an attack on the poor.

Atlantic Dawn · 18-12-2021 6:04pm

If they look at the comparison to their country of those claiming disability here it will fully blow them away.

RandomViewer · 18-12-2021 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223432/esri-confirms-irish-welfare-dependent-population-is-twice-that-of-germany-or-france

Link?

busunderer · 18-12-2021 6:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343267#Comment_118343267

the fact that you have to ask …

https://www.esri.ie/publications/irelands-household-worklessness-and-working-age-market-income-inequality

Kermit.de.frog · 18-12-2021 6:23pm

Hardly surprising. I think the worrying aspect from a societal point of view is the generational one, incentivising the bringing in to this world of children and the more the better who will know nothing of work, won't be encouraged to do well for themselves and will be the next generation of life time dependents.

The other thing is this system is not sustainable. Someone is paying for all of this at the end of the day.

Something has to be done. The whole system needs serious reform.

malinheader · 18-12-2021 6:26pm

Until they bring in a proper living wage instead of the minimum wage it will still mean alot of families are better off on welfare than working.

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2021 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223432/esri-confirms-irish-welfare-dependent-population-is-twice-that-of-germany-or-france

You forgot the word "proportion" from your misleading thread title. Clickbait.

Kermit.de.frog · 18-12-2021 6:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343349#Comment_118343349

The other option is to reduce welfare.

The benefits of reducing welfare as an inducement are it costs us all less and the former dole recipient is now in employment getting work experience and used to a culture of work.

As things stand now you can be born in this country and never work a day in your life.

It's all arseways.

malinheader · 18-12-2021 6:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343366#Comment_118343366

Totally agree but can't see that happening.

All I hear on the radio is how social welfare has to rise because of cost of living. No word of wages rising.

Also with social welfare lots of add ons, medical card, rent subsidies etc.

RandomViewer · 18-12-2021 6:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343366#Comment_118343366

If you reduce welfare it'll actually cost jobs as nearly every penny of welfare is back into the economy, PUP saved the banks arse again, I think that free health care for all would do more to help people escape welfare trap than anything else, the loss of a medical card is more of a block to people taking up employment than you'd think.

18-12-2021 6:44pm

Can someone explain to me where or how I can draw the dole (200 odd a week) and also afford foreign holidays etc as people claim?

Also what’s this shite about new houses or something? Have any of the councils built new houses recently? I know a few people in social housing, they are not new builds, lovely houses in fairness though but nothing most people can’t afford to rent/buy anyway.

any reasonable discussion about the welfare state in Ireland is immediately made a farce by the “free house” and other similar fallacy brigade. Guess what guys - they’re NOT free - you pay rent! I know of a few people paying upwards of €70 odd a week. “Sure that’s nothing!”

yeah, no prob, please reduce your wages to €130 a week and live on that for a few weeks and come back to me.

so many absolutely rubbish things spouted left and right on the subject of social welfare, in my years here I swear I couldn’t begin to count the amount of times. Funny too that there’s always “I know a friend of someone who knows an aunt of someone I ran into on the street, well they’re on the dole anyway and they go to Spain every year!”

I bet it’s happening, but the type of people doing it are either:

Getting loans, somewhere, from someone
making extra income, likely in cash, possibly illegally.

because let me promise you, no one on welfare full time is having a foreign holiday every year just on that money. It’s simply not happening.

enricoh · 18-12-2021 6:45pm

That's what corporation tax and the MNC tax take is for n that's going to increase forever so we're grand!

Well it better coz we're the third most indebted country in the developed world. What could possibly go wrong?!

18-12-2021 6:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343414#Comment_118343414

Are we?

according to Wikipedia Ireland doesn’t even rank in the top 10.

edit; we’re 31, for anyone curious.

enricoh · 18-12-2021 6:52pm

Someone needs to update Wikipedia

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/ireland-banks-debt-paschal-donohoe-13187329.amp

Ireland is the THIRD most indebted country in the developed world with €201 billion mountain of debt

The debt equates to every man, woman and child in Ireland owing €42,000

SHARE

Danno · 18-12-2021 7:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343349#Comment_118343349

Wages are already quite high in Ireland especially when one looks at the minimum wage. The problem in Ireland for both workers and welfare recipients is that the €uro in the pocket doesn't have much purchasing power. One of the reasons for this is government taxes (excluding income taxes) which drive up the costs of things that should be cheaper.

Social welfare rates also need to be reformed - 80% of your last job's wages for three months, falling to 60% after six months, falling further to minimum social welfare rates after one year.

Medical cards are another fiasco. I would argue that three tiers or a traffic light system needs to be introduced. Getting a card is based on health needs. A perfectly healthy person should get a green medical card loaded with six annual doctors visits and two hospital visits covered. After that you're paying. Someone with an ongoing but manageable health condition could get an amber card with say twice as much as the green card. And finally, someone with a serious illness and life limiting health condition could get a red card with unlimited healthcare access.

Green medical cards would be rolled out to the whole population and it would be also illegal for hospitals to charge for parking.

lawred2 · 18-12-2021 7:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343456#Comment_118343456

pffft that's well out of date I'm afraid

HBC08 · 18-12-2021 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343413#Comment_118343413

I lived abroad for years and moved home in the middle of the recession.I was keen to get a job but applied for the dole aswell.

I was living at home and my parents explained that they wouldn't accept any money from me. (I of course did contribute indirectly)

I couldn't believe it,I'd head into the post office every Tuesday and they'd literally hand me cash.I was out for pints most weekends and could still save money,a cheap holiday in Spain was had too.This all started in January,I got an interview for a job about April and was offered it.I thought about it for a while and then thought fùck it I'll leave it til after the summer,I was enjoying myself.

Now I know not everybody on the dole was in the same situation as me but there was no incentive to get a job and that's not the way it should be.I got a bit bored after a year and got back to work.

Taxburden carrier · 18-12-2021 7:17pm

Certainly is out of date. It’s currently over €48k per capita, c. €20k above the EU average

18-12-2021 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343601#Comment_118343601

So basically unless you’re not a real adult you can’t afford these holidays yearly?

ok good enough.

enricoh · 18-12-2021 7:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343529#Comment_118343529

Here's a gaff in Balbriggan to rent at the minute, e2100 a month for a townhouse! Totally unsustainable for a working couple paying their way. The government will rent it on hap no bother and the tenants pony up 40 quid a week. Would you blame people for not bothering?!

https://www.daft.ie/for-rent/house-28-bremore-pastures-drive-balbriggan-co-dublin/3656726

18-12-2021 7:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343615#Comment_118343615

Aha more nonsense.

the limit for DCC at the minute for a lone parent/couple with THREE children is €1,300 p/m.

so, no, they certainly won’t. And if you’re just a couple with no kids the limits €900.

HBC08 · 18-12-2021 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343613#Comment_118343613

I thought the thread was about how generous the dole is,I gave you an example of my experience on the dole.I was able to save,have nights out and go on a foreign holiday.

Im sorry it doesn't suit your narrative.

enricoh · 18-12-2021 7:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343556#Comment_118343556

Article was 3 years ago, good I hope we're in the middle of the pack now so

malinheader · 18-12-2021 7:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343529#Comment_118343529

Good idea for the medical card.

We only attend a doctor when it's a very big must. As well as losing a couple of hours it always costs me a days wages or more for visit and medication. Yet some I know can attend for the simplest of complaints. Not fair.

18-12-2021 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343649#Comment_118343649

You lived at home with your parents and contributed on the sly, which is fair enough, but my point is, if you’re living in your own place, paying rent and utility bills, you’re not gonna afford drinks every weekend and trips to Spain.

Exactly how is €200 a week (from age 25 and up it starts at €100 or so) generous? Would you work 40hr a week for €200 in wages? or would you give up your job to live on €200 a week? I certainly wouldn’t.

lawred2 · 18-12-2021 7:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343655#Comment_118343655

Worse I would expect. Sure we're throwing about billions for covid.

growleaves · 18-12-2021 7:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343655#Comment_118343655

We've had the most comprehensive shutdowns of 2020-1 in Europe and the world, effectively embargoing parts of our real economy and subsidising closed businesses with debt-based stimulus.

18-12-2021 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343400#Comment_118343400

A lick of sense among the usual reactionary drivel.

techman1 · 18-12-2021 7:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343414#Comment_118343414

Exactly, that's why this is still all possible, the bonanza we are getting from corporation tax, it's also the reason why we are closing down hospitality yet again, the government doesn't have to properly account for the lost revenue and the business supports they have to pay out as well. Corporation tax is preventing proper reform of the Irish systems

Confused11811 · 18-12-2021 8:03pm

Welfare payments aren't just for the unemployed so you argument of the "false statistic of Irish unemployment rate of 5% or so pre-Covid" is completely wrong. That 12 percent of households could include lone parents, people on disability payments, carers or widows/widowers etc. As a report there a no details of the metrics used and the source of it's data. For example does it assume a household with a lone parents working but also in receipt of one parent family is a non-working house hold or have the cross referenced social welfare records with current revenue records. It also doesn't say if those in the asylum system who are entitled to welfare payments but not allowed to work are included.

That's not to say there aren't issues with some long term unemploymed people especially intergenerational unemployed households but from the get go the assumptions are wrong

cnocbui · 18-12-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343422#Comment_118343422

That's comforting...

"Ireland to have highest debt per head in Europe this year" https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-to-have-highest-debt-per-head-in-europe-this-year-1.4503652

Public debt stands at a mind boggling €150,000 per income tax payer - that's not people in employment, as 37% of employed people don't pay income tax.

Menawhile, 80% of the traveller community are unemployed.

generic_throwaway · 18-12-2021 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343355#Comment_118343355

a) only a complete moron would think this refers to absolute numbers

b) dismissing this rather alarming fact as clickbait is...interesting

Mad_maxx · 18-12-2021 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343400#Comment_118343400

Using that argument, welfare should be doubled

generic_throwaway · 18-12-2021 8:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343413#Comment_118343413

70 euros a week (your 'high' number) is indeed nothing. Your mortgage on a 300k house will be around 300 euros a week. And rent for an 2 bed apartment in Dublin on the open market will be closer to 400 a week.

There aren't easy answers here but it is very dangerous to create a class of people who are entirely welfare dependent as guess what most of their kids (note that middle-income earners are struggling to afford to have children) are going to do when they grow up?

Wanderer78 · 18-12-2021 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058223432/esri-confirms-irish-welfare-dependent-population-is-twice-that-of-germany-or-france

...or maybe the cost of living has sky rocketed, primarily due to encouraging and facilitating a fire sector lead economy, driving the cost of accommodation out the window, couple that with the encouragement of the undermining of labour markets, causing much lower wage inflation in comparison to this property price inflation, resulting in a big pile of sh1te! but lets point the finger at the welfare classes, theyre definitely at fault here, theyve definitely caused this one!

generic_throwaway · 18-12-2021 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343822#Comment_118343822

You are right, it could be and probably is including all those categories of people - but presumably Germany and France have those categories too...

Brucie Bonus · 18-12-2021 8:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343456#Comment_118343456

Yeah but got Irish Water there.

Brucie Bonus · 18-12-2021 8:52pm

People in the US who work for Walmart, also receive welfare.

It's my understanding that people only receive what its deemed they need.

If there's concern about the welfare bill I'd look at the causes for the need rather than the recipients, who don't make policy.

generic_throwaway · 18-12-2021 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343973#Comment_118343973

Where do you think Ireland should have focused efforts to develop the economy since the 1980s, given that high tech and finance aren't to your liking? What well-paid roles with a solid future should we have cultivated here?

Note: I don't expect you to answer in anything other than complete waffle. Just pointing out that you moan about everthing but have no answers for even the most basic questions about alternatives.

angela1711 · 18-12-2021 9:00pm

In fairness how can anyone expect people to work for minimum wage which is currently 10.20 an hour that’s just over 400e for a 40 hour week, take away tax and you are left with just shy of 400e. Now that may be fair enough for students, people just out of college or mothers with young kids that just want to make some extra money but if you take a 30 year old that works in a factory, 30kms away from their home, who needs to pay rent and all the usual bills they would actually be foolish even considering working for that kind of money.

Between petrol, car insurance, tax, nct, work clothes, food for work etc they will be left with no more than they would get on the dole. On top of it they actually have to get up everyday and actually do some work to get paid.

Now take that same person on the dole:

203e a week

HAP

Medical Card

Fuel allowance

Little to no need for a car so that’s your petrol, insurance, nct costs down to 0.

At home all day so doesn’t need too many clothes.

Plenty of time to cook or go to mums for dinner so saving on food costs here.

No real need for phone top ups can just use WhatsApp or messenger to call/text people.

Let’s now say that this 30year old decides to find himself a partner and have a baby. Calculations are looking even better now:

203e for himself

150 (almost) for herself

40 (almost for the baby)

almost 400 here x 4 weeks= 1200

140 a month child benefit

=1340

On top of this their rent is now even lower and they are entitled to a bigger house. Medical cards for all. Fuel allowance (additional almost 200e a month)

Almost free Creche. If he decides to do some work for extra hand in cash and she does some house cleaning for a couple of ladies down the road now you are looking for a monthly income of 3000e on top of hap, medical cards, heavily subsided childcare. And remember they are on their way to a social house which they could subsequently buy at a serious discount (the lower they earn the higher the discount).

So why would anyone of sound mind work for minimum wage ?

18-12-2021 9:08pm

Any I know getting unemployment have housing at percentage but also work cash job like mind child etc. I don't know any who has to "survive " on 200

angela1711 · 18-12-2021 9:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344179#Comment_118344179

Pensioners maybe but it’s close to 300e a week with fuel, telephone and in some cases living alone allowance. I know fuel is only paid for a portion of the year but they would generally have around 250e a week without it.

Brucie Bonus · 18-12-2021 9:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118344179#Comment_118344179

Thats defrauding welfare. If they can organise side work they should organise more of it and sign off.

They don't get the 200 with a nod and a wink that they can work on the quiet.

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2021 10:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343649#Comment_118343649

Because someone else was providing your accommodation, paying your utility bills, washing your jocks and socks, dishing up the meat and two veg, paying for your TV and broadband....

Check your privilege.

AndrewJRenko · 18-12-2021 11:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118343896#Comment_118343896

I'm the complete moron because I believed the words that Fred wrote? Interesting.

I'd respectfully suggest that Fred knew exactly he was doing in hyping up the matter, the 'clickbait' approach. Perhaps most people wouldn't be all that alarmed if he had actually been clear and accurate?

Geuze · 18-12-2021 11:34pm

I have been studying this for a few years.

Yes, Ireland leads the EU in what is know as people living in households with Very Low Work Intensity.

Similarly, we have a lot of jobless households.

It's important to know that unemployment is not the same as joblessness.

We have had low unemployment here, but high joblessness.

We have high levels of economic inactivity, meaning we have lots of hh with zero market income.

Barra Roantree of the ESRI gave a nice lecture on it:

https://www.esri.ie/sites/default/files/media/file-uploads/2020-01/Slides_1.pdf

Geuze · 18-12-2021 11:38pm

Look at page 20-25 of Roantree's analysis.

"How does this compare to our neighbours? ...

as where we really stand out is % of working-age adults with no market income

Comparatively low rates of employment among single parent households in particular

… who make up a larger share of total households than in other countries

... while 19% of working-age adults living alone say permanently disabled/unfit for work"

Compared to other countries, we have loads of lone parents, and many of these are inactive

We also have really high rates of disability (I don't know why).

joseywhales · 18-12-2021 11:39pm

What ever happened to survival of the fittest? If there is no jeopardy in life then you won't get any growth and productivity. Why are people entitled to anything? If a cheetah is too slow to catch an antelope it dies. Hence cheetahs have evolved to be fast to live. It's seems humans want to de-evolve, since the slowest seem to procreate the most because we incentivise it.

ESRI confirms Irish welfare dependent population is TWICE that of Germany or France

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