Walking on your land

Finnbar01

What would you do if you saw a stranger walking on your land with a dog on a lead?

BTW, I from the city.

Dickie10

Ask them what there doing and then politely ask them to leave and not return again. Just say its insurance if they tripped and fell or something, public liabilty etc , cant be on the land.

JustJoe7240

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058222565/walking-on-your-land

As someone who has first hand experience with losses from Neospora, I'd be asking them to vacate

893bet

Depends on the person and dog. And depends on the field in question. And depends on the time of year.

A certain type with a lurcher would be ran.

A stranger with a Labrador and seems a genuine sort In winter, no real sweat. In spring I might have a word to say not to ever enter if there are animals in the field or similar and mention that as dog droppings can cause abortions in cows etc also. Reminder on gates etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058222565/walking-on-your-land

They would be escorted to the nearest exit and politely asked not to return. I note the question informs us that the dog is on a lead, we've had many incidences of people having dogs on leads - until out of sight. This farm is in a scenic area so we often have randomers walking around. We've also had enough of the killings and maulings of sheep, and quite enough of the ever present worry asking ourselves if there is or isn't a dog with those people off in the distance. Over the decades we have learned signs don't work, foreign tourists in fairness tend not to have dogs, equally Irish people tend not to possess the ability to read English.

These are some of the ingredients which lead to raised tempers. It's all liability for the land owner, from the livestock worrying and personal injury point of view.

matt.v

(Also if the dog so happens to get off its leash and worries the cattle the farmer is within their rights to shoot it, as doing so protects their animals and the farmers livelihood. That's a rather fine deterrent.)

Tileman

I’m getting closer to the town the whole time with developments coming out my direction. Suck to the teeth of people coming out walking with dogs. I’m a sheep farmer so had instances of Sheep killed and ran heavy in lamb. More and more are becoming very belligerent and lack of respect for property owner including using a field right beside my parents house.

White Clover

Aa Herdquitter has said, they would be escorted to the nearest exit and told that they are not to return. It would be explained to them that this is my work place and only invited guests (contractors etc) are required to be here.

Why would anyone think that I would want the liability of them and their dogs on my private property?

Easten

Had 2 lads from the Village out walking the dogs and doing a bit of hunting, I challenged them on why they were on my land only to be told they were in the local Gun club and didn't need my permission.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312129#Comment_118312129

I’d be reporting them ASAP to local gun club. Gun club or no gun club they absolutely need permission of the landowner. Ridiculous perception that landowners signed over shooting rights to gun clubs years ago still seems to persist. Common sense would dictate that landowner is king.

and btw, I’m chairman of our local gun club and it infuriates me when members still think they can shoot wherever they like.

have2flushtwice

Go in and walk around their garden with a pet cow and see how they would like it.

I know, it's not the same thing. ....

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118322340#Comment_118322340

It's not to far off..you could go into their garden and say you are a humane bird hunter after a rare species of finch spotted in the neighbourhood but it's cool as you are a member of the local chapter of bird snappers ireland a non profit organisation dedicated to the pursuit of the most high definition photos of our feathered friends ...and btw don't worry about the lad in your kitchen snaffling all the ginger nuts ....hes a friend...scool

Easten

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312205#Comment_118312205

I wasn't sure as it was a place I got from an Uncle and thought maybe he had given them the ok in the past. Turned out they were chancing it and they were not even members of the Club having been refused entry

ganmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312119#Comment_118312119

I'd be tempted to march them to the furthest exit possible :P

StevenToast

https://youtu.be/NelBNtNm8l0

This is how i handle trespassers on my land OP...

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118311732#Comment_118311732

Insurance not a issue. If they are on your lads they are considered a trespassers, you owe no duty of care to them unless you intentionally do something to harm them

Base price

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323285#Comment_118323285

Or unless you have a building/other structure on your land that isn't identified with warning signs and fenced to appropriate standards to prevent possible injury?

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323353#Comment_118323353

Incorrect

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323379#Comment_118323379

Mm, not so sure

"It is advisable to ensure that there are signs on your land warning of potential dangers, especially in areas of the land where it is foreseeable that people might cross."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30838146.html

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118312205#Comment_118312205

They started, or tried to start a GC in this area. After a long weekend and a longer spin up from Kerry I just about made the start of the formation meeting. My participation ended the same night when the proposed chairman said it'd be up to individual members whether they sought landowners permission to go shooting on lands.................. or not.

In another incident, I was genuinely almost shot on my own farm. Two lads out after woodcock in a little gully with lots of furze. I heard a dog so went to investigate, no idea the two were there. Bird flies out over my head, followed by two shotgun blasts. They couldn't initially hear the **** and blinding due to ear protectors, but they heard plenty of it once they saw me.

The same two were ran from three different parcels of land the same day.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323285#Comment_118323285

A Dr from a nearby town to a property I own, decided my land and woods were a nice place to do some shooting. He had an accident - I have always presumed he stumbled, as it's rough ground - and managed to shoot himself - close range blast from a shotgun. I gather he nearly bled out before rescue arrived and he could be taken on an at least 1hr trip to the nearest major hospital.

I was half expecting some solicitor to get in contact and accuse me of not removing every rock and filling every hole so some trespasser poaching wouldn't trip.

Not a word.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323474#Comment_118323474

I would almost love someone to come after me on that one. One situation where the incredible burden of a SAC designation could be of use.

Not my property, mate, go talk to the real owners. Good luck taking on the government.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324571#Comment_118324571

One thing for sure, designations illustrate the extremely weak state of property rights in Ireland. People think they have rights, until the state decides otherwise. Interesting contrast with the 30x30 / America the Beautiful designation strategy in the US, where they actually DO have property rights.

As for trespassers, I'd still like to err on the side of not getting letters tbh.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118323285#Comment_118323285

Incorrect.

irrespective of whether they are trespassing or invited guests, if they can prove negligent on your part you will be liable.

Am I right in saying that in England a hill walker had an accident and fell and sued the land owner and the judge threw it out of court because it would stop other hill walkers availing of country walking ,ambling....I'm sure I read that afew years ago?

Thargor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330687#Comment_118330687

That reminds me of another case in Ireland where it was Coilte or someone else being sued, what ever happened with that does anyone know? A woman tripped and damaged her knee, I know there was a big thread here about it but good luck finding it in this new disaster of a site...

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330651#Comment_118330651

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118324545#Comment_118324545

The law on uninvited guests trespassers is quite clear. You owe no duty of care to them. You may not do anything to deliberately harm them but you being negligent is not in play as you owe them ''no duty of care''.

Minors U16 ( unaccompanied I think but not sure) are not included in the legislation. The only other provisio may be regulations such as around uncovered slurry tanks, if you had no covers on agitation points or when building works are in play.

The legislation has proven very robust. It is not just used in farmland, it has also stopped cases where nefarious activity was being carried out and an individual hurt themselves. The legal people tried to drive a coach and four through it but any case where it applies has been lost.

The two most high profile was a person who slipped down a cliff and broke bones where a high court judge ( the first test case) gave damages but these were overturned by the Supreme Court.

In another case a person slipped taking a shortcut out of a car park that was regularly used and no damages were awarded( I think this was a circuit court case)

Negligence was deliberately excluded from the legislation (lawyers lobbied for it to be included) but the legislation is clear it's ''no duty of care'' as long as you do not deliberately attempt to harm people. Deliberate harm would be where you dug a hole on a path and covered it with grass or bushes so that it became a trap or if you connected a fence wire to mains electricity to stop people entering your land.

There is no onus on you to provide signs or fence off area that may be dangerous unless it is covered by regulation.

I wish people who don't understand the legislation would stop interpreting it.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330882#Comment_118330882

https://www.thejournal.ie/hillwalker-compensation-wicklow-overturned-3244946-Feb2017/

Proper order too.

neris

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118330882#Comment_118330882

I think that was up above the lake in Glendalough where Coilte had put in railway sleeper type pathways on the walks/trails and the case went against her

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331115#Comment_118331115

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-30830505.html

this would certainly contradict some of your points above in regard to duty of care and also liability. Your earlier comment above states that ‘insurance is not an issue’. Any landowner would be very naive to think like that.

https://www.thejournal.ie/hillwalker-compensation-wicklow-overturned-3244946-Feb2017/

This case which the circuit court heard confirms my point which simply stated that you will be liable if found negligent.

unless for course Bass you argue that the circuit court should not be interrupting law........ it’s irrelevant that the high court overturned it as that’s why Appeal processes are in place in any jurisdiction. High court regularly overturn decisions on appeal.

Going back to gun clubs and hunters on land. All gun club members are insured with the NARGC which is a full comprehensive insurance covering individuals, their shooting party, their dog and any damage they may do to livestock or property and they are generally very good at paying out. All members are obliged to carry their membership card with them when out hunting. The card is the size of a credit card and contains their name , club name and date of birth so simply ask to see their card in the first instance will confirm who they are and if they are members of their local club

NARGC are typically very good to pay out and pay out quickly. However, like any insurance there is a few small prints that they must adhere to:

1. all accidents must be reported within 24 hours
2. shooting party must be limited to 3 guns
3. all in party must be NARGC members
4. the exception to 2 above is on say fox shoots where you will typically have a lot more than 3. Clubs are obliged to contact their county secretary to inform of said fox hunt and pay a nominal fee of €20 and they are all insured. Many clubs don’t do this unfortunately.

Lasting piece, if as a landowner you’re in doubt, put them out

ganmo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331336#Comment_118331336

Eventually, It had to be appealed.

the woman in that case had a solicitor husband which is why I'm guessing it made it to court...but I still wouldn't like to pay for a court defence.

carfinder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118331115#Comment_118331115

The irony of your last sentence 😂😂

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332970#Comment_118332970

I cannot quite read the Examiner article as I do not subscribe. I could glean parts of it but not all. As I pointed out earlier minors U16 are not included in the legislation. However part of the reply was incorrect.

In the trespassers legislation ( and it's is in force nearly twenty years now) there is only two type of people catered for Guests, and uninvited Guests( trespassers for the want of a better word). A Guest a someone like a friend you invited for a cup of tea, the postman, the miller rep or the silage contractor etc. A traveling salesman is not a guest neither is someone wandering your fields. Signs are not necessary.

On Gunclubs I neither give permission nor do I go shouting and roaring at them. They are uninvited guests.

Like everyone that has any sense I pay in

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118332990#Comment_118332990

And the fact it was the women husband was a solicitor would have influenced the judges decision as well.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118333020#Comment_118333020

It no irony, in the twenty ish years since this legislation nobody has successfully sued a farmer while walking on his land.

I pay my insurance if there an issue I will hand it over to them. There is no way issue and no need to consider a lad walking you land as a liability from an injury point of view as long as he is uninvited.

einn32

I always thought with cases where someone trespassing on land/property had an accident the judge would award something to them. It's like when you see those signs in a carpark stating the carpark is not responsible for any vehicles, well a judge would most likely see it different. Another example is construction sites where people have trespassed despite adequate warning signs and fencing. If they get injured then the builder could be liable in court. The best you can do to limit the damage in court is have warning signs etc. People laugh at me when I keep checking fencing and signage on sites. There are plenty people out there who have no issue in pulling a fast one at you expense.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334683#Comment_118334683

This is totally different to open countryside and by extension private property as opposed to regulated areas. For instance construction sites and car parks owe a duty of care to those that are in the vicinity of them. A farmer or any private property owner dose not. They may not deliberately harm them but they do not owe them a duty of care.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118334834#Comment_118334834

You are missing the point here. What I’m saying is that if you are found negligent you will be liable. For example y leave a chain Harrow in a field and forget about it and the grass grows up through it - best of luck to you if some uninvited guest gets injured. Other greyer examples might be if someone tore an eye off a briar that was growing out of a ditch.

Both examples are not intentional harm but liability or a portion of it might lie with farmer. I’m not saying I agree with the law but case law will show that unfortunately this is often the case. Below is a classic example

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/injured-trespasser-wins-6-500-in-damages-1.1061484

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335078#Comment_118335078

No I am not missing the point. You do not understand the legal phrase about ''no duty of care'' means you being negligent is not an issue. The way the legislation is phrased if someone list an eye to a briar there is no way they would win compensation, on the harrow the claimant has to prove that you deliberately left it there with the intention of injuring someone.

There has being no such cases won in court where the claimant was an uninvited guest. On the spiked railing, the boy was a six year old so is not covered by the act as he is s minor.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335368#Comment_118335368

Well you should read the Irish times article and it’ll show you are wrong. The clue is in the title ‘injured trespasser wins €6500 in damages’

have a nice day.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335379#Comment_118335379

The trespasser was a minor not covered by the act. As well spiked fences around a property could be considered similar to putting glass.into concrete on the top of a wall to discourage/ prevent access. Putting glass on top of a wall is a deliberate act whereby you will injure someone if they attempt to climb the wall.

Again he was a minor not covered by the act.

paddysdream

Have an interest in this topic for various reasons .What I do know is that I asked my solicitor some years ago about this and his advice was that if I saw someone "trespassing " best thing was to pretend I had not seen them .Its back to the duty of care argument as Bass Reeves said ;as long as you do not intentionally harm them etc then you have no duty of care to uninvited guests .

Slightly higher standard for invited guests but again this is what your public liability is for .

Trespassing is a civil offence as far as I know ie you have to bring the case yourself .

From the Examiner article ;

Firstly the landowner is not to intentionally injure or harm the person, and secondly, the landowner is not to act with reckless disregard for their safety.

Thats all you have to do .

Donald Trump

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335368#Comment_118335368

It is not because he was a six year old boy. Age isn't directly relevant for the Act. The judge made the decision because there was a history of kids regularly trying to retrieve balls and the owner knew about that activity. Therefore it brought the risk itself into the higher category - "reckless disregard".

Just FYI, the 1995 Act only applies to the state of the property itself. So it does not apply in relation to any activity that you do on that property. Additionally, there are 3 categories under the act rather than 2.

Viscount Aggro

The purpose of "no trespassing" sign, its only a deterrent.

I have never seen a legal action about this, and Gardai will not get involved - its a civil matter.

Its happened on my land, when I challenged a couple of people, what were they doing?

I have signs and fences everywhere on my perimeter, just happens to be a very scenic area.

I got a load of guff about right to roam, land should be enjoyed by all.

I am not Jack Reacher, so not going to take on people in a possible fight.

Biscuitus

The ditches and fencing on my farm is designed more to keep people out than keep animals in lately. All our gates are locked and wrapped up in barbed wire so you'll skin yourself trying to get in. We have meshed gates that the average person can't climb and animals can't get thorough. On top of that electric fence is a clear deterrent for most.

I was expecting a lot of trespassers with covid but there's been less in the last 2 years than ever. You'd be some fool to get into my fields when there is mother and calf or the bull in them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118336785#Comment_118336785

I think the barbed wire on gates possibly could be a liability for you?

Viscount Aggro

What you need is the anti-climb paint, along top of gate.

It never dries.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335443#Comment_118335443

In the case of the woman who paraphrase

‘sued the National Parks and Wildlife Service, who placed the boardwalk on the lands. Last year at Dublin Circuit Court judge Jacqueline Linnane found the NWPS was negligent and was ordered to pay Wall €40,000 damages.

The NPWS, who denied negligence, appealed that ruling to the High Court. How many people would have the means to appeal a €40k award to the high court?

I think it’s safe to assume that NPWS didn’t intentionally set out to harm her but the circuit court saw fit to award her €40k.

I doubt either the woman set out to intentionally injure the child but it cost her €6k

No issue on your point of duty of care is to not intentionally harm anyone but case law will show that where negligence is proven, whether intentional or not, that liability or part of will lie with landowner. A simple google will provide plenty of evidence. I’m not a subscriber to the examiner but I can read their articles

but anyways Bass I’ll leave it with you and hopefully for you, you’ll never find out and more importantly I hope I never find out.

John_Rambo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118335996#Comment_118335996

I'm not Jack Reacher. I'm John Rambo, so I set horrific traps that kill & maim trespassers.

Bass Reeves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118339110#Comment_118339110

I wouldn't be defending it my insurance company would. And they have appealed any of these cars they lost to the High court and onto the Supreme court if necessary. That is why all case law shows that the legislation is robust. That is why I pay for insurance.

The NPWS like many government bodies or larger companies self insure and again they pursue cases where they consider judges make incorrect decisions. The first main case law on this was where FBD pursued a case where a women slipped down a cliff and a HC judge gave a significant award as the cliff edge was not properly fenced . The SC red that the women should have known that because there was a fence there even though it was in poor condition that by going beyond she was at risk and should have known it

As Paddydream solicitor advised I ignore trespassers and because they are uninvited guests my insurance company will sort the rest. That is what I pay insurance for

.

Dunedin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118340747#Comment_118340747

You’re some man to twist the argument.

sure why would you need insurance, why would insurers go to court if there’s no liability on any unintentional injury?

won’t a one liner citing the no duty of care against trespassers do the job. Case dismissed. It’s amazing that the circuit court doesn’t know the law and someone like your good self knows it all.

kerryjack

They are plenty places in this country to walk dogs we are blessed with lovely parks and walks and greenways all over Ireland. There is absolutely no need to be entering people's private property and places of business.

kincaid

we had hunters and hounds on our land and one guy took two dogs and and spade and must have dug out a fox on our land and never asked permission, the cheek of some people