Anti-vax/science/lockdown folks facing consequences in the courts

live4tkd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119938544#Comment_119938544

This has been rehashed multiple times on boards and I am not going over it again!

I said they were utter stupidity and insanity not anyone else i.e. its my opinion as there was no nuance to them. There is no conspiracy here just the response was pure reactionary and political! I do agree with the first one but after that they went on far too long and opened up in the winter peak flu season! They turned too political in response to hysteria from certain quarters. There was no nuance to them.

It annoys me we cannot be allowed to debate with civility or criticise the pandemic response because we are regarded as `you lot` conspiracy theorists or anti vaxxers in some cases. Indeed there are some but I am not one of them. I followed the rules too as I have loved ones to protect too and thankfully they avoided it for as long as possible! But I made that decision to do that as I have done for years and I don`t expect everybody to do the same or the world to stop to protect my loved ones. But I am allowed to criticise the response too!

I am trying to be reasonable in my response as I do not want to be banned so I ask that you be reasonable too and less patronising or I will not engage anymore.

Hotblack Desiato

F'kin hell. This is what happens when very very stupid people get access to arms and explosives.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/world/arid-41018201.html

A police officer and two civilians have died after a suicide bomber blew himself up near a truck carrying police officers on their way to protect polio workers near Quetta in Pakistan.

The bombing also wounded 23 others, mostly policemen.

Senior officer Ghulam Azfer Mehser said the attack happened as the policemen were heading to the polio workers, part of a nationwide vaccination drive launched on Monday.

Militants falsely claim that vaccination campaigns are a Western conspiracy to sterilise children.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119937781#Comment_119937781

Says the hardcore conspiracy theorist who lives in perpetual fear of conspiracies that don't exist.

This has been an issue with measures against the virus, unfortunately there's a segment of people in society who are highly susceptible to conspiratorial thinking and have interpreted measures as something else. It's no coincidence that these types of people are typically anti-mask, anti-vaccine, etc.

There will always be a portion of people who are, sorry to say it, dangerously stupid. It's one of the reasons why e.g. wearing a seat-belt is compulsory.

As for your other comment, we don't have a zero-Covid policy and we don't live in a Communist country, so it's irrelevant to us.

farmingquestion

Western people protest lockdowns = racist, far right, conspiracy theorists

Chinese people protest lockdowns = brave, need to support them.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939067#Comment_119939067

False equivalence.

We don't have lockdowns here anymore, because the situation has changed, China does. We don't have a zero Covid policy, China does. China is the only country in the world presently doing this.

If we had a lockdown now, I would be against it, most of the country would be against it, why? Because it's an entirely different situation.

Therefore we can emphathise and understand why people in China are against lockdowns at this stage.

ligerdub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939237#Comment_119939237

You wouldn't be.

It's funny how people can suddenly hypothesize their reaction in a specific scenario yet in a near identical scenario they openly state they actually did something else. Face it, people acted in with the cosy consensus and took great pleasure in throwing shame and suggesting all sorts of hideous repercussions for those who had a different view. The defence mechanism to this was ultimately false claims of "the science" or some other claim that was also found out to be bogus.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939262#Comment_119939262

The situations weren't near identical, that's a false premise.

2020, new virus, global pandemic, cases (and deaths) were threatening national health systems - countries had partial and temporary full lockdowns to reduce cases/deaths and pressure on their systems.

2022, situation is different and under control. Lockdowns are not required.

It's simple logic. Did I support a lockdown in 2020? Of course. Would I support one now? Of course not. Completely different situations.

Do I support people wearing masks in 2020? Of course. Do I support mandated mask wearing now? No. Different situations.

It's basic logic and common sense.

Unfortunately some people are unable to apply either to the situation. To understand why this is, it's best to (again) use the analogy of seat-belts. When seat-belt fines or laws were introduced, there was a huge public backlash in certain countries. This is because a portion of people were unable to look at the situation with logic and common sense, they instead perceived it as an "attack" on their "freedom", as something political.

It's hard not to notice the same position from most people who are anti-vaccine, anti-mask and anti-lockdown.

This is not to be confused normal criticism of lockdowns, differences over details. It's to do with people who have an agenda, a stance, one that isn't rooted in logic. The type of people who put the word science in quotations.

farmingquestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939237#Comment_119939237

What's your point exactly?

Each government does things the way they thought was best. Just because the west did it one way, doesn't mean THAT'S the way it should be done everywhere.

You talk about situations changing. We had one of the strictest lockdowns in Europe. The situation in Ireland was no different other parts of Europe that eased lockdowns yet Tony demanded pubs had to close at 5pm etc.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939350#Comment_119939350

My point should be clear from my post.

If you have a problem over the specifics or details, that's normal, we all did. That e.g. pubs should have been closed in X month instead of Y month, etc.

The issue is that there are people who are actually against the common sense measures themselves. The wearing of masks. The use of vaccines. That kind of thing.

When e.g. the Spanish flu epidemic broke in 1918, we had masks, we had social distancing, we had lockdowns. That's because these are common sense ways of tackling an outbreak of an infectious airborne disease. It makes no sense to just be "against" those tools, that is the equivalent of people who are "against" seatbelts. That's my point.

As for the situation in China. The pandemic around the world has largely subsided. Therefore the vast majority of countries have eased restrictions. There is one country that hasn't; China. They have incorporated a controversial "zero-Covid" policy. That policy is the issue. It's the only country I'm aware that has it.

Some people who are against measures on principle are using that policy as a vector to attack lockdowns/masks/whatever in general, which is absurd.

Unfortunately certain people who are very vocal about the specifics of e.g. mask policy can get lumped into the same category as people who are against masks. To be fair, sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

Again, I'm not pro or anti lockdown. It's a tool, one that has known drawbacks. It can be implemented partially. If a new disease emerges tomorrow, spreads everywhere, starts threatening our national health systems, then indeed, if other measures aren't working, and depending on the factors, we might indeed need to implement temporary partial or full lockdowns.

ligerdub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939321#Comment_119939321

Yeah I'm not reading any of that. I'm not wasting any more of my time on this farcical story.

Look, people revealed themselves to their true character over the last 2 years. I sleep well at night in the knowledge that I never instructed anyone on their behaviour or ostracised anyone for their personal decisions. Others took a different option. They can try and rationalise it away but they know the truth....and they have to live with that. Essentially they were collaborators. They followed the consensus laid out for them....and are doing it again now with the situation in China. The only difference now is that they've been given the green light to support the "anti-lockdown folks" (title of this thread remember) this time around.

Good luck.

Hotblack Desiato

Oh, some revealed their true character all right. "I'll do what I want and f**k everyone else" and that will not soon be forgotten.

dwayneshintzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119939067#Comment_119939067

Almost as if they're wildly different situations, isn't it?

Or are you comparing conditions in China to what you had to endure in the West?

Hotblack Desiato

This mythical support in Ireland for Chinese protestors appears to be coming out of the same orifice as "all the liberals in Ireland support Islam"

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119941946#Comment_119941946

Wow. You don't read my response but you reply to it. Okay. You then go and label the public as "collaborators" in what I can only describe as an Alex Jones style comment. Also anyone can differentiate between health rules during a pandemic and this controversial zero-Covid policy in China after the pandemic.

The vast majority of Irish people followed practical health rules and guidelines during the pandemic. Over 95% of Irish adults are vaccinated. Unfortunately there was a fringe minority who railed against common sense, and now we're seeing this persecution complex thing from them.

Hangdogroad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058221215/anti-vax-science-lockdown-folks-facing-consequences-in-the-courts

Horrible tramp that fella.

Seth Brundle

feckin eejits!

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1600025517410775040?s=20&t=cAeDTbLoX236rYmi7OaQlQ

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119963245#Comment_119963245

Court has ordered that the baby be taken into temporary custody, for the medical procedure, basically to save it's life. The parents wanted to be able to "choose" unvaccinated blood, absolute basket-cases.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119942721#Comment_119942721

Your and others' willingness to be controlled and micro-managed in every aspect of your life and to foist that on other people with stupid slogans like 'Heroes Stay at Home' shows your infantile mentality.

As I recall many people were throwing parties the whole time and by the last Level 5 lockdown traffic in Dublin was chock-a-block, as lockdowns were being generally ignored, and only diehard internet-addicts were still camped at home while normal people were socialising and going about their business.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966581#Comment_119966581

It's nothing to do with "controlling" a person, it's about controlling a virus.

Individuals keep conflating standard measures during a global pandemic with some nefarious attempts to "interfere" with them. It's a form of personal paranoia.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966607#Comment_119966607

Standard my hole.

Are you now going to link me to that National Geographic article that says that they closed the cinemas and cafes in Philadelphia and a handful of cities for a few weeks in winter 1918?

You would start wearing your shoes on your head if a bureaucratic consensus could be produced saying you're meant to.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966581#Comment_119966581

Anyone who goes straight to personal attack (with absolutely NO basis in what was posted) simply cannot be taken seriously

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966638#Comment_119966638

Cool.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966631#Comment_119966631

The measures had nothing to do with someone's irrational distrust of authority or over-inflated sense of persecution.

They weren't political, they weren't about "taking our freedoms", they weren't a personal "attack" on anyone. It was part of a national effort to reduce deaths, reduce the virus and reduce pressure on our health system.

Slogans to get people to stay at home (during the temp lockdown) were part of the effort to reduce the spread of the virus. It's grim that this stuff has to be explained at this stage.

Seth Brundle

It's grim that this stuff has to be explained at this stage.

It doesn't need to be explained as it has been several times over. Some just want to ignore the details because, for whatever reason, they are opposed to the measures taken. I suspect most of those reasons are down to either pure selfishness or stupidity but I'd like to be wrong.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966859#Comment_119966859

Yep. Some people just have a deep-seated belief that the powers-that-be are out to get them or "control" them or screw them over or whatever and that the measures were some sort of extension of that.

1.9 million in fines for covid breaches around the country between November 2020 and February 2022. Article below gives numbers for a few counties

https://www.shannonside.ie/news/almost-e40000-in-covid-fines-issued-across-shannonside-region-215413

Those anti's made a nice contribution towards the state coffers in fairness to them

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966724#Comment_119966724

Some went full William Wallace bellowing about FREEDOM constantly.

Most have scuttled away now but some diehards appear to remain in conspiracy mode.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119970010#Comment_119970010

I heard the word "tyranny" being used. For having to wear a piece of cloth.

The Nal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119970148#Comment_119970148

C'mon man, they're called "face nappies"

Hotblack Desiato

Not working out great for these lads.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/12/23/only-three-face-mask-discrimination-claims-successful-at-wrc/

Just three people have won discrimination claims over Covid-19 face mask rules to date – a success rate of just over 5 per cent. Among the claims rejected was one brought by a man who entered a West Cork supermarket while maskless and wearing a yellow Star of David.

The Workplace Relations Commission has rejected 53 out of 56 complaints taken under the Equal Status Act 2000 and the Employment Equality Act on disability grounds by individuals claiming they were refused goods, services or reasonable accommodation for being unable to wear a face covering.

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966545#Comment_119966545

If the law is equal for all, should the court/doctors/authorities not face murder charges? Ah I forgot this is the topic to ridicule all those people that face consequences for breaching any of the imposed nonsensical restriction, scumbags they should get a life sentence for venturing outside the 5km radius.

My sympathy goes to the parents, they will never find out if they made the right choice because they simply weren't allowed to choose

https://www.eviemagazine.com/post/baby-dies-after-doctors-ignore-parents-request-for-unvaccinated-blood

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043407#Comment_120043407

The entire source seems to be Twitter and a fundraiser. No confirmation from the hospital. Looking it up, people suspect it's a scam.

Even if it was true, then it the parents would be 100% at fault for delaying medical procedures by absurdly demanding "unvaccinated" blood.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043407#Comment_120043407

Ah I forgot this is the topic to ridicule all those people that face consequences for breaching any of the imposed nonsensical restriction, scumbags they should get a life sentence for venturing outside the 5km radius.

I can't recall a point in this thread when the anti-vax people didn't warrant ridicule which they brought upon themselves.

As for the restrictions, remind us why they were introduced. Was it to control people for some absurd reason or was it simply to reduce the likleihood of an infection spreading and placing a huge burden on the health services? The restriuctions were a common sense approach despite whatever nutjob logic you've been reading!

My sympathy goes to the parents, they will never find out if they made the right choice because they simply weren't allowed to choose

My sympathy would go to the infant who was born into a short life with eejits for parents who placed their childs health well below their stupid ideologies. If anyone is to blame for the infants death, it would be the parents and the parents alone!

cnocbui

For those who like to gloat because they think they are so smart for adhering to the prevailing opinion of the herd:

Former federal MP Dr Kerryn Phelps says she and her partner experienced vaccine injury, calling for tests for long COVID and vaccine injuries as well as more research on the long-term harms of the coronavirus and immunisation side effects.

Phelps said that until there were vaccines that prevented transmission, stronger public health messaging and measures were imperative to protect the vulnerable – including those with existing health conditions and people who could not have the vaccine.

Dr Kerryn Phelps says tests for long COVID and vaccine injury are important, and ongoing research is needed.Credit:Peter Braig

In a submission to an ongoing parliamentary inquiry on long COVID Phelps said she and her wife had both been injured after receiving COVID vaccinations.

She said her wife, Jackie Stricker-Phelps, suffered long-term symptoms including ongoing nerve pain and fatigue following her first injection, while Phelps herself experienced symptoms including breathlessness and irregular blood pressure following her second shot.

In an interview, the former Australian Medical Association president and medical practitioner said more research was vital to understanding both the disease and vaccine injury as the pandemic continues.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/not-anti-vaxxers-dr-kerryn-phelps-says-she-suffered-covid-vaccine-injury-calls-for-more-research-20221220-p5c7ry.html

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043531#Comment_120043531

She's right, it would be great if we could have even less vaccine injuries than present.

Not sure why you use the phrase "prevailing opinion of the herd", it's bizarre and doesn't make any sense. She fully supported and still supports the vaccines. Just wants to see if further research can be done to get vaccine injury numbers down even more.

darconio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043460#Comment_120043460

You assume that the baby died because of the delayed transfusion, however :

1) The parents had a donor ready with the required blood type

2) The transfusion was not required for the success of the operation, in fact it was decided arbitrarily by the doctor

3) The cause of death was blood-clotting following the blood transfusion

I know it's hard, but forget for a second the usual dispute antivax/provax, don't you think the parents were entitled to choose considering that the alternative has proven to be fatal for the infant? On the other end, considering the outcome, should the court/doctor not face charges based on their poor decision?

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043553#Comment_120043553

Again, all of this information is based on a fundraiser and social media. None of this has been confirmed in any way.

However, if hypothetically this was true - parents don't get their "own" donors. Any delays to treatment based on their quackery are on them. If an operation occurs and something unforeseen happens (e.g. complications during surgery) then there are processes to determine if malpractice was involved.

There's no such thing as ordering or getting "unvaccinated" blood or "vegan" blood or "virgin" blood or whatever, it doesn't exist. And when a NZ couple tried it, the court ruled against them and took temporary custody of the child to provide it with the right healthcare.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043547#Comment_120043547

I think it vindicates the fact that people should be able to make their own choice without coercion. It may be that VAERS and other such databases under-record incidents (yes I know they are only correlations).

Given the amount of vaccine injuries, you are definitely going to sow mistrust if you're seen to be almost forcing people to take the vaccines.

Add in that they don't prevent transmission, particularly in light of Omicron washing over the entire population, and the case for things like vaccine passes and exclusion falls apart for all but we-know-best fanatics.

Dohnjoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069454#Comment_120069454

There have been 14 billion vaccinations, injuries/deaths from the vaccines are relatively very low

People can be too ignorant/selfish to make their own choices, hence we have guidelines/rules/laws.

During the pandemic I came across such intense stupidity it was borderline dangerous.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069454#Comment_120069454

This is deceptive on several fronts.

Vaccine passes were in place here before Omicron was circulating. Against the variants then in circulation, vaccination significantly reduced infection rates and transmission. To use Omicron to argue against what was done in 2021 is therefore revisionism without basis.

And that wasn't the only reason for vaccine passes. It was so that people in higher risk social settings such as pubs, if they did get infected, would be far less likely to get severe covid.

Vaccine passes have been dropped here for pubs etc in part because Omicron changed the terrain.

Finally, there was no 'coercion' in Ireland. Everybody had a choice whether to take vaccine or not. Pubs were closed to everyone before we rolled out vaccine passes. It was very much a case of the carrot not the stick. Nobody in Ireland suffered consequences in terms of threats of prisons or fines at the hands of the state for not getting vaccinated.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069479#Comment_120069479

Of course there was coercion and I've never heard anyway say otherwise until now. I've only seen people say the coercion was 100% necessary and justified on public health grounds (with an "albeit regrettable" thrown in by anyone who wasn't spiteful), or else they opposed it and thought it unnecessary for xyz reasons.

(Obviously what is NOT meant is things like torture or threats of violence.)

In Italy, Lithuania, Australia and Canada you could be barred from most employment, which is what happened to Lech Walesa who was disallowed from trading as a electrician in Communist Poland when he organised the Solidarity trade union.

Btw 'the stick' = coercion. Having a choice doesn't mean that that choice hasn't been coerced in some way.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069520#Comment_120069520

There wasn't coercion in Ireland.

That point has been challenged multiple times on this forum.

Coercion has a specific meaning which you have entirely failed to substantiate.

the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.

Nobody was compelled or coerced to be vaccinated in Ireland using force or threats.

To compare a public health measure to a political act against Lech Walesa just shows how far your argument has jumped the shark. If someone was banned from work for drinking or smoking on the job would be summoning his name for them also? Absolute nonsense whataboutery.

growleaves

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069534#Comment_120069534

Barring people from all public buildings indefinitely is force. Freedom of association was suspended under the 'Emergency' diktat system otherwise it would not have been possible legally.

There was also a cultural atmosphere of unhingedness and huge pressure. I worked with a guy who said unvaccinated people are Nazis.

Then the whole thing was scrapped overnight when inflation was starting to bite. Soon afterwards we facilitated the mass migration of Ukrainians - a large many of whom are not now, and never will be, vaccinated.

Edit: post edited to fix timeline

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069585#Comment_120069585

The 'cultural atmosphere' is not coercion. Coercion has a specific meaning which you have entirely failed to substantiate as applicable to vaccine passes in Ireland.

The unvaccinated weren't barred from all public buildings. They weren't barred from garda stations, hospitals, schools, universities, the courts. They weren't barred from shops, pharmacies. I could go on, but that it sufficient to demonstrate the falseness of your claim.

The rest of your post bears as much connection with reality.

purplefields

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120043531#Comment_120043531

I got my booster in November as was hospitalised because of it. Got sudden onset anisocoria and need an emergency MRI. My blood pressure is still really high two months later. My side effects have now also been submitted via The Health Products Regulatory Authority (hpra.ie)

Had all of my Covid vaccines. I used to think the anti-vax crowd were cranks. Not any more!

growleaves

@odyssey06 'The unvaccinated weren't barred from all public buildings.'

Many public buildings though, there was a fairly extensive ban-list as I recall.

My point about our taking in large numbers of un-vaxed migrants bears reflection. If we are taking in people from a country with less vaccinations per capita than Ireland that is admitting that vaccination is subordinate to other, more important considerations.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069686#Comment_120069686

There's a massive difference between claiming they were barred from all public buildings, and the ones they were barred from. They were not barred from any essential services. They were barred from accessing services which had been closed to all during lockdowns.

Your latter point doesn't mean vaccination isn't important or that the passes wouldn't have been dropped regardless of Omicron. What vaccine pass restrictions were still in force when the war started?

growleaves

@odyssey06 'They were not barred from any essential services.'

Yeah fair enough.

'Your latter point doesn't mean vaccination isn't important or that the passes wouldn't have been dropped regardless of Omicron. What vaccine pass restrictions were still in force when the war started?'

But clearly its no longer the most important thing, which is what I've said. Do you mind me asking does the mass migration of people from a country with less vaccinations per capita vex you at all?

Don't worry, I'm not going to falsely accuse you of being pro-Russian if you say yes.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069733#Comment_120069733

The healthcare of the refugees is a concern fullstop, that would be a main aspect of it especially in relation to adult population.

To discuss further would be off topic.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120069673#Comment_120069673

i am afraid they are absolutely cranks, no doubt about that fact.

nobody has ever said, at least not to my knowledge, that a vaccine can't have unforseen effects on some individuals, some of those effects serious given any medical product can effect people differently the odd time, however what the anti-vax crowd do is spout lies and knowingly so, and keep spouting them even when those lies have been debunked.