Taxed to the hilt

cnocbui

Ireland has:

The highest death duties in the world

highest taxes on motoring in the EU

4th highest CGT in the world

10th highest VAT?GST tax

14th highest income taxes, but realistically way higher, as 37% of earners pay no tax but no doubt are included in calculating the per head hit.

Then there are innumerable cunning tricks pulled to impose tax like cost imposts that are not measured internationally as taxes, such as the levies on electricity bills, medical insurance, car insurance, home insurance, TV licence.

Irish people have other costs lumped on them which act as government subsidies to commercial interests. They don't count as taxes per sey, but they have the same effect. Things like restrictions on generic medicines. I use Beconase for hayfever. It's an over the counter medication and is about 4-5 times the cost of it's generic equivalent in the UK. You can get the generic beclamethasone from a pharmacy, but first you need to spend €50 on a visit to Dr to get a prescription and then you will only have to pay €4.50 for it whereas the branded Beconase costs ±€12, except the pharmacy will charge you a €7 dispensing fee.

"Generic drugs in Ireland cost a multiple of the prices of the same products in the UK and the OECD says:

Despite recent cuts, Irish expenditure on pharmaceuticals remains high and well above the OECD average on a per capita basis. In part, this can be explained by the low use of generic medications, which in 2011 accounted for only 18% of the total volume of pharmaceuticals prescribed in Ireland. In Germany, the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Denmark, generics represent more than 70% of the market."

You can't get around it by importing from other countries in the EU either - you can't even import or buy natural plant remedies that are effective, as they are also banned.

So amongst the highest pharmaceutical costs in the EU due to legislated subsidisation of pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies

Ireland has the highest mortgage costs in the EU due to government policy on pardoning defaulting mortgages, so the banks pass on the cost to the non-defaulting borrowers to the tune of somewhere around €6,000 added to the cost of an average mortgage. So one group of taxpayers is subsidising another. Taxation by another name. Socialism in action.

Getting a handle on the real levels of Irish taxation is quite difficult, because most reporting is done on the basis of taxation as a percentage of GDP, which, is meaningless as there is a near total disconnect between Irish GDP and reality.

But back to the obvious taxes.

Irish government non corporate tax revenue in 2020 was €45,322 m. There are only 1,651,900 earners who pay tax, so the non corporate tax revenue per taxpayer was €27,442. Given the average salary is somewhere around €34 - 38 K a year, that seems like a lot. Of course it's likely not quite that high as some of the non corporate tax categories would actually come from corporate activities, but I can't see how to seperate those out.

Anyone who thinks the tax burden on tax payers in this country is low, is welcome to their opinioin, but given Ireland is a chart topper in several tax categories and an over-achiever in the others and 37% of earners pay no tax, I personally find that an impossibe conclusion.

Mayfielder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233981#Comment_118233981

Drug charges in this country are extortionate.

My monthly statins, allopurinol for gout and asthma inhaler costs around €35 with a €25 prescription charge every six months. The wife's drug bill is about the same.

Well they would be if I didn't buy in bulk while visiting Spain or Greece every year or getting my pals to pick-up when they're over.

Works out around €30 a month.

No brainer mate.

Sam Russell

Ireland does not have the highest death duties in the world. It has no death duties.

What it does have is a gift tax or inheritance tax, with tax breaks. Everyone is allowed to receive €3,000 as a gift free of tax each year. Sons and daughters are allowed to be gifted €350,000 from parents over their lifetime. Now maybe the 33% tax over that might be a lot, but it is simplistic to take that as the level on the whole amount. There is a very generous relief for the parental home if the recipient lives in it as their prime residence for three years, and remain there for a further six years. That can be significant.

For everyone, there is no capital gains tax on prime residence on the sale of it.

Now some taxes are high but some are not.

cnocbui

"IRELAND has the highest death taxes of any of the world's major economies, according to a new study.

The report, by the global accountancy network UHY, found that Ireland's inheritance tax was more than three times the international average and far higher than that charged by other countries in the European Union."

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ireland-has-the-highest-death-taxes-in-world-30158169.html

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235415#Comment_118235415

That report is from 2014 and uses extreme examples - not taking exemptions into account. Since 2014, disregards have been increased, and it is not a death tax, but an inheritance/gift tax. Death taxes are charged on the total estate, inheritance is charged to the recipient - big difference.

It is a good bit of clickbait, but unsound.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118236680#Comment_118236680

You are arguing against an accountancy firm - knock yourself out mate.

"The UK and Ireland take the highest proportion of inheritance or estate taxes of any major world economies, according to a new study by UHY, the international accountancy network.  

Ireland would typically take 26%, and the UK 25.8% from the estate of an individual passing on an estate worth US$3m* to their heirs, well above the global average of 7.67%" https://www.uhy.com/uk-imposes-highest-taxes-on-inheritance-of-all-major-economies/

Oh look, Ireland takes the chequred flag again.

You imply that because it's from 2014, it's out of date. I agree. The governments tax take from CAT in 2014 was €561m and in 2020 it was €951m

Here's a couple more groups for you to take on with your denial:

"The Law Society of Ireland is calling on the Government to raise the punitive Capital Acquisitions Tax thresholds in Budget 2016.

The current level of Capital Acquisitions Tax (CAT) thresholds places an unfair tax burden on children inheriting property from their parents, forcing many to sell their family home in order to pay the tax bill.

Director General of the Law Society Ken Murphy said, “These inheritance tax thresholds were never intended to catch ordinary people in the tax net. Inheritance tax was meant to tax people who receive exceptionally large inheritances, not modest three bedroom semi-ds.”

“Both the thresholds at which the tax must be paid and the rate of tax were massively increased by the Government during the financial crisis. In 2009, a child could inherit €542,544 from a parent, and the balance was taxed at 22pc. Now a child can inherit only €225,000 from a parent before the balance is taxed at 33pc."

“Combine these massive decreases of the CAT threshold with rising property prices, together with the higher rate of tax, and you have a tax system that is punitive to the extreme,” said Ken Murphy.

Ireland compared globally

“When compared to other countries around the world, Ireland has one of the most penal inheritance tax systems in the world. We suffer from a lethal combination of both a punitive rate of CAT tax and a severely low threshold,” says Ken Murphy.

“The Ireland CAT tax rate of 33% is significantly above the OECD average of 15%. However, more significant is the threshold for exemption before the tax applies, which is penal in worldwide terms. In fact, many countries have increased the thresholds to such an extent that they have effectively abolished inheritance tax.”

https://www.lawsociety.ie/News/Media/Press-Releases/Law-Society-of-Ireland-calls-on-Government--to-raise-punitive-inheritance-tax-thresholds

Once you have put the accountants and the law society in their place, you can take on the OECD:

"In Ireland, inheritance tax accounts for a greater share of overall tax revenue than in most other OECD states"

Sam Russell

So going from an outdated Indo article from 2014, you are quoting from Ken Murphy of the Law Society from 2016. You are some joker.

Now why would the Law Society be concerned about Inheritance tax? Have they run out of ambulances to chase?

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118237741#Comment_118237741

Because the law society handle wills, probate, etc. and are the people who pay the inheritance tax to revenue.

Strumms

Paying large sums of tax... I’m ok with that... IF we were getting bang for our buck, we aren’t and haven’t been...

The European Health Consumer Index 2018 tells us...

• we have the longest waiting lists in Europe.
• Worst value for money for the money invested in the service in Europe....also...
• National Clinical Programme for Rehabilitation Medicine (NCPRM) Model of Care for the Provision of Specialist Rehabilitation Services in Ireland.. lambast the lack of inpatient physical rehab facilities
• Clinical Strategy and Programmes Division of the HSE reported that there is a significant shortage of in-patient rehabilitation beds for physical disability/illness....

in other words, you are in a bad car crash, nerve issue, brain injury... you are up against it to recover..because you probably won’t get funding or a bed in the NRH or Doolaghs Park...

money is ringfenced to go ‘elsewhere’...

L1011

Do you want to swap zero water charges and exceptionally low property tax for some reductions in other taxations?

Because it appears parties in power have decided that the populace doesn't.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118235394#Comment_118235394

there's no better way for me to start an argument at a family gathering than by arguing that inheritance tax is too low in ireland.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243455#Comment_118243455

Taxes are never considered too low in any gathering, apart from those who are not liable or do not pay. The problem with taxes is that if they are too low, the Gov does not have the money to run the country. On the other hand, if they target some elements of the population, such as the super-rich, they will move their assets so that avoid (or evade) the tax.

Inheritance taxes are a bit of an unavoidable tax without long term planning, and they have been designed to cope with that, with frequent annual adjustments in the budgets to avoid the avoiders.

If the wealth of the country was more evenly spread, then the taxes could be as well.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243507#Comment_118243507

most citizens pay some sort of taxes, including the welfare classes, so.....

if we embraced perpetual deficits, and other forms of public money creation, we d have more money to run the country, but we re extremely reluctant to do so, seems very daft to me! if we embraced these methods more, we d become less reliant on taxation, in order to run the country, but i suspect we may never actually do this, but relying primarily on the taxation related to labour and consumption, and not taxing wealth enough, isnt gonna work in the long run, so.......

Sam Russell

Well, running a deficit is a good idea if we could rely on interest rates staying at the current rates.

This has two downsides. Inflation needs to be kept low - currently deemed to be below 2%, but we are in for a spate of higher inflation as a result of Brexit. Secondly, the level of national debt has to be kept below our GDP or GNI or some other measure as set by the Euro rules and ECB.

There was a time when the whole total of income tax was used to pay the interest on the national debt. That cannot last as the economy gets into a downward spiral as austerity is used to reduce public spending but also reduces GDP which makes the matters worse.

Wealth tax would be a good idea, but we do not even levy any tax on high worth individuals who claim to be resident elsewhere, but still appear a lot in Irish life. The USA tax all citizens on their world income - perhaps we might try the same.

We have plenty of tax rules that are a bit odd, like the artist exemption - why? Or allowing companies to carry forward losses against Corporation tax indefinitely - like the banks can - it is over a decade since those losses were posted, and a decade is long enough to earn their way out.

We have an opposition that believes the solution to all political or social problems can be solved by throwing plenty of free money from the evergreen money tree. This can only lead to national destitution - just think back to the 1950s to the 1980s - inflation, unemployment and emigration. We cannot go back there.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118243903#Comment_118243903

the world has moved on, central banks are currently stuck in a low rate cycle, compared to the past, increasing rates to past levels would more than likely create severe downturns in many economy's, probably even severe recessions, and central banks know this, its also important to note, rates have been in a steady decline for a very long time now, we need to truly put this one to rest now.

current inflation rates are more than likely transitory, largely due to supply side issues, which do look like continuing for some time, and its also important to bare in mind, theres currently a relaxing of borrowing rules, to plough on with the borrowing folks, we ve never had better opportunities to do so...

again, the world has moved on, the economy of today is far different than the economy of the past, and thankfully more and more are slowly starting to accept austerity actually does far more harm than good, if any good at all, even some troika members have admitted this in recent times.

taxation on wealthy individuals alone also wont cut it, even though this also must be pursued, we must also start taxing wealthy institutions, businesses, corporations etc etc etc, more, the recent agreement of global corporate tax has showed us yet again, we re not truly willing to do this just yet, but we clearly need to, and quickly, we re all running out of methods of funding our countries, there clearly needs to be some sort of long term approach to doing this, the current agreement is nothing of the sort

exemptions are sometimes understandable, and sometimes just not, artists for example generally have very low income and work in extremely precarious environments, if we were to remove these exemptions, we d also have to decrease such citizens precariousness, i.e. we would need to make sure we have truly functioning critical services such as property and health care services, we currently have neither, and its looking like this will remain to be so, for a very long time, possibly indefinitely, so.....

id would agree though with regards corporate tax...

nobody is actually throwing free money anywhere, as all this money begins its life as debt, i.e. they would simply just be increasing the national debt, baring in mind, current government proposals requires an enormous amount of citizens to borrow money from private sector credit markets, i.e. borrowing money from banks, in order for the work to be done, this actually wont work at all, the only way to truly get this work done, is to embrace public debt, and public money creation, as we have once again learned the hard way, running your economy primarily on private sector money, i.e. credit, has become too dangerous, i.e. 08!

again, we have moved on, the world of the past, of past generations is exactly that, in the past, but if we dont embrace these ideas, and all of their problems, and theres many, you can be damn sure we ll be quickly heading back to the problems of the past you mentioned, i.e. unemployment, emigration, and more modern, more serious problems

Sam Russell

Well, you could look at Norway which has a Sovereign Fund, not a national debt. Now having a National Debt - particularly one as large as ours, leaves the nation subject to the vagaries of the money markets, which can swing against our advantage, and if we are in hock to them, then there is nothing we can do about it except follow their requirements. That will never happen to Norway.

Economics have changed? Of course, the crash was caused by a change in economics - they wanted their money back.

Our Gov are prepared to use PPP to fund infrastructure projects rather than the EU funding available. PPP is a way of putting Public funds into Private Pockets, with the Public taking the risks, while Private side Profits. I have always wondered why, as the State can always borrow on better terms that private financiers.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244882#Comment_118244882

id absolutely agree with the use of sovereign wealth funds, but we dont seem to be too pushed there either, so......

we ve become over reliant on credit markets to run the country, this has become too dangerous now, we have to embrace alternatives, with their problems, and hope for the best

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244969#Comment_118244969

What asset would you base any sovereign wealth fund on?

while credit is cheap we should absolutely be borrowing for capital expenditure that will have long term benefits for the country.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244996#Comment_118244996

the only idea ive heard so far is partially accepting corporation revenue as stocks and shares, and placing these into funds, but im sure theres other ideas out there, this stuff can be done, we have to do it, or.......

L1011

And what would you replace that foregone income with?

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245057#Comment_118245057

...again, we need to embrace public debt, deficits, and other methods of public money creation

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245106#Comment_118245106

So you're suggesting we borrow money to save money?

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118244882#Comment_118244882

Norway is Europe's Saudi Arabia. Their soveriegn fund is entirely based on income from selling oil and gas, it's not the result of them being financial geniuses. Anyone who believes in AGW should consider Norway to be the dirtiest, most polluting country in Europe.

They export CO2 and use the proceeds to buy EV's and eco smugness. Easily the worlds largest eco hypocrits.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245122#Comment_118245122

yes, because thats how the world works, all money begins its life as debt, in both the public and private domains, in most recent times, this has been primarily in the private domain, via credit creation, but this has clearly become too unstable, too dangerous, i.e. 08, and the fact that now, the private domain is unwilling and unable to now provide us with our needs, most evident in our property and health care needs. its important to realise, by not doing so, it pushes this requirement out into the private domain, i.e. with credit, so no matter what way you go, theres actual no 'saving', just the origin of where the money comes from, and where that debt sits, i.e. whos balance sheet

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245184#Comment_118245184

Just because you read this somewhere doesn't make it actually work in reality.

You don't create a sovereign wealth fund from borrowing.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245191#Comment_118245191

theres plenty of respected sources on this, including from central banks themselves, Scotland has recently just created its own infrastructure bank, we to could do this, but theres no will to....

whats to borrow, in order to create it?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118245221#Comment_118245221

Show me a respected source saying that you can create a sovereign wealth fund from borrowing, then.

Sam Russell

A sovereign wealth fund is the opposite of sovereign debt. If you create sovereign debt, then you are depleting the sovereign fund.

The only way out of sovereign debt is to create wealth and not spend it.

You can create/access more debt by growing the economy, preferably by increased productivity. Spending public money on consumption or day to day expenditure is the road to ruin. Spending on good infrastructure like Metrolink is wise and well worthwhile as that project will still be functioning next century long after the cost of it is forgotten.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118233257#Comment_118233257

That all depends on how much you earn after the AIW you shoot right up for personal taxation rates in this country and as you pointed out the public services you get in return are p1ss poor. You also need to take into account those earning less pay very little or no tax and also have much more options open to them with regards to services and grants meaning that the burden of personal tax is crippling at a very low level in this country and your entitled to very little the further up you go.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118246489#Comment_118246489

You need to take into account taxes other than income tax, with VAT being the most obvious one.