Taxed to the hilt

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036975#Comment_118036975

completely agree, and respected commentators have been advocating for such a fund for a long time, but it still hasnt been done, and it easily could be! theres very little will within our governments to truly change things

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037450#Comment_118037450

Well, they have tried the 'Rainy Day Fund' but too little in it. First they need to stop spending - like €5 for Social Welfare - it is too little to make much difference, but costs a lot. Increase children's allowance, but tax it so high earners do not get the extra. Basically, get clever with the give away items so hey are properly targeted. I like the half price fares for the under 23s.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037763#Comment_118037763

...again, running a government is nothing like running a household, when governments 'save', they in fact withdraw money from the economy, reducing the ability of the economy to engage in economic activities, i.e. transactions, it effectively slows the economy down, and then the economy requires the increase of the private sector money supply, the credit supply, to do the heavy lifting, which means the private sector must take on the debts to do so.

simply giving citizens more money to spend actually makes perfect sense, as it increases the public money supply, you ll actually find most, if not all of this money moves into private sector bank accounts, as its spent into the economy, hence why pup was so successful, as it kept many businesses open during covid, as the demand for new credit in the private sector dramatically fell, this public money kept things ticking over, it even created some jobs along the way, without which, many businesses probably would have gone bust.

yes, this new money, i.e. pup payments, came from deficit borrowing, but again, as explained above, if we didnt do this, the cost of not doing it, would have been far greater, i.e. business closures

best of luck with increasing taxes on higher earners, theres very little will to do that, as apparently, their gains trickle down, apparently!

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037944#Comment_118037944

Again with this bullsh1t. So, how would you suggest paying the multi-billion interest bill for all this Borrowing? What do you suggest when interest rates go up making borrowing more difficult? What do you suggest when lenders no longer want to lend to one of the most-indebted nations in the world?

Why don't your stock copy and paste jobs all over this site deal with any of these three questions?

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024146#Comment_118024146

Good to see you've the interests of the mega rich capitalists in your heart.

Yes, you're right private sector waste is disgraceful, robbing those who's foresight and initiative in setting up businesses of their profits and returns.

Robbing those share-holders like me who invest heavily in various businesses of my dividends.

Thanks for highlightingh the topic of waste inside the private sector!! I'll try harder to stamp it out where I can! 👍️

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035755#Comment_118035755

Regarding your third paragraph, we pour ever more money into the HSE.

And yet the waiting lists and times get longer.

Between Dec 2019 and Aug 2021 we added 10,000+ staff to the HSE.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/our-workforce/workforce-reporting/health-service-personnel-census-aug-2021-v2.pdf

And still the waiting lists get longer.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038826#Comment_118038826

@salonfire , well said.

Obviously most countries can't continue to run large fiscal deficits on and on.

Obviously public debt can't continue to rise and rise as a share of GNI.

Thankfully, the situation is not as bad as I feared, and the planned deficit is falling fast, thankfully.

I can't understand why some people seem to love more and more public debt.

salonfire

They don't even realize by calling for this continuous and increased borrowing, they are actually lining the pockets of the financiers and the casino capitalists; the very people they rally against. Where do they think the €5 billion in interest last year went to?

All the outrage of the price of the Children's Hosiptal and not a peep about this €5 billion. Had we borrowed less and had politicians with a spine, we could have used this €5 billion to have a second Children's Hospital in case we wanted a spare one laying about. But alas ...

[Deleted User]

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118038826#Comment_118038826

You don't understand macroeconomics and how national debt differs from household debt. Instead of arguing with the person on boards take some time to research these topics. You have everything you need to get started.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118039430#Comment_118039430

The HSE is a badly conceived project that was founded to unify the various health boards, but without shedding staff, and not upsetting all those who are invested in their own little bailiwick.

The health services in Ireland have a strong private health element where public health consultants are allowed to run extensive and lucrative private practice while still getting a generous salary from the HSE. There has been no success in changing this, because the politicians are not able to do anything about it. I cannot think why.

A similar situation applies to the legal profession. The top lawyers do quite nicely out of it. Courts do not start sitting till - what 11 am, and finish at 4 pm. Serious cases have collapsed because jurors have fallen sick. Why not have spare jurors empanelled and pick the twelve when the jury go to deliberate? Why do they wear wigs?

Whatever solutions can be hewn from the body politic and the vested interests that dictate politics, the bills still need to be paid. The least productive bill is the interest on all that overspending we did in the past.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118040600#Comment_118040600

We all know public debt is not the same as household debt.

That is not a rationale for supporting ever rising public debt.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023582#Comment_118023582

Sorry just to be sure taxation for the low paid are not high and in some cases non-existent, as soon as you earn the AIW your bent over and raped on personal taxation. I find it immoral that over half the money you earn over this amount is taken off you and further to make it even more punitive a lot of services/grants etc that its paid into a person earning a decent salary cannot avail of as they are in some gobsh1ts eyes earning too much. I believe that people should be allowed work like a company and have expenses (travel, accommodation, electricity, food and other essentials) paid out of pre-tax monies - if its good enough for the likes of Google and Facebook who make billions then its good enough for Billy the IT Guy or Sharon the nurse (Not to be sexist we could have Sharon the IT girl and Billy the nurse :) ) who are on the AIW. Also someone who pays tax while working they should see a % of that being kept and ring fenced for their own personal services that they will need going into the future. The current system absolutely hammers the middle income earners and is an actual deterrent for people working or for others who may want to come to work in this country.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024146#Comment_118024146

You have the option not to use the private sector if you think they are wasting money cant say the same with our public sector now can we. Also most private sector companies would have hit the wall and have disappeared in the wind if they had anything like the debt and deficit that the last 3/4 governments has hoisted onto us and our kids and grand kids and quite possibly our great grand kids.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024960#Comment_118024960

OK 240 Billion in debt and currently running a deficit of 14Billion - Can you explain how this fits into your narrative?

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118025356#Comment_118025356

The difference being if a private sector remains inefficient the company will spot it and try to change it as in updating a process , firing and hiring and if that doesn't happen eventually the company hits the wall as the private sector is open to competition and in age where this is now global instead of just local if a company is not on the ball there not going to last long. The same cannot be said for the public sector change is way too slow in a lot of areas. A public sector employee can literally watch the clock for an entire career and come out with a nice little pension at the end further suckling at the public purses. Even with the numerous scandals and phuck ups we have seen in the public sector over the years we have seen very few sackings from the public sector.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118026833#Comment_118026833

Right so lets get this right.

So the average guy say as the site has 40k so lets do the math

Tax with PSRI and USC you lose - 6750

Then you have the following

VAT

Property tax (if you are lucky to own a house)

Carbon tax for either driving or heating your home

Motor Tax

This is before the indirect costs

Mortgage/rent

Insurance

ESB

Toll bridges

Heating

childcare

refuge charges

Food

Clothes

Now go look at your comparison and look at what your taxes pay for in the likes of Norway. For a start no one pays childcare their its taken out of the tax take of the country. Also have a look at the public transport network available to their population in comparison to the p1ss poor effort that is available in this country. You cant blame anyone for driving as the simple fact is the transport is not there.

The simple fact is we overpay from a very low rate (around the AIW) for the p1ss poor services that are offered. I mean how phucking stupid are the government upping carbon tax with out even a half public transport network to give the public an alternative.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034597#Comment_118034597

Once again it wont change as the alternative of a decent transport network is not there for people to change to. They have put the cart before the horse. They should of built up the transport network then up the tax to give people the choice of a cheaper public option or a more expensive private option

Padre_Pio

The government sets incentives and disincentives. It's up to you to work in the system they create (unless you form your own party, get into govt and change things)

The govt are very anti-car, so either suck it up and pay high tax and fuel costs, or buy a small, efficient car and love cheaply.

Same with everything else. It's in your power to game the system. You'll never get the better of it, but you can be less affected by it.

All other countries are the same. Things you take for granted here could be taxed to the hilt somewhere else and vice versa.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035755#Comment_118035755

Are you kidding the HSE has had an annual overspend for at least a decade and a half and the service has gotten worse I will leave the exception of Covid aside but the likes of queues for beds and treatments have gone through the roof (once again this was before covid hit) its like a bottomless pit, it needs to be re-organised root and branch to see where the money is going. Like one other poster put up the children's hospital build is snapshot of the overall mishandling of public monies that go into the public sector where no one knows why its the most expensive medical facility ever built globally and we apparently cant ask why it costs so much its all smoke and mirrors.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/national-children-s-hospital-set-to-be-world-s-most-expensive-medical-facility-1.3734669

Anyone looking for more taxation just want the trough to be remain full for piggies to be eating from it. Time to get our spend in order as the middle to high income earners are paying too much for a p1ss poor return

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046789#Comment_118046789

So what about people who will probably give up the job as driving a car will be too expensive and there is no public transport available I can see the law of unintended consequences squarely biting Mr Ryan and the rest of the greens in the hole here as our welfare is actively competing with low paying jobs why would you bother working when you can sit on your hole and be handed almost as much money as you would get by working

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046799#Comment_118046799

The HSE was formed by amalgamating the health boards without any rationalisation and no redundancies. The number of management staff increased in the new HSE rather than being reduced. The HSE needs reform but there are significant vested interests preventing it. But it is what it is. Those vested interests are vicious when defending their patch, and no politician considers that they can take them on.

There are many big ways the HSE could be reformed, and many small ways that could be implemented which would, collectively, add up to significant improvements. No-one who could implement these changes is interested or listening. Covid allowed changes that would take decades to be implemented in weeks or even days. So maybe there is a sea change.

One example. Following the hack of the HSE computers it became known that many of these computers were still working on Windows 7 which is no longer supported - but that may be for operational reasons because they control scanners or such. Now what I would suggest is that the HSE approach a country like Denmark (or any other country) that has a successful health computer system and licence it and implement it wholesale in the HSE. Now I remember PPARS and the expensive disaster that turned out to be, so I would get their experts to do the implementation as well.

There are many scandals within the HSE that come from appalling management and they are inexcusable. I do not defend them, but Eir, for example, are a company with an appalling customer service record so not every private enterprise is blameless.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058213250/taxed-to-the-hilt

you know what, how about you get a f77king job. Then you can stop whinging about your handouts...

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118046907#Comment_118046907

Just your own opening paragraph about vested interested keeping their own interests going and asking the tax payer to pay more for the status quo to remain is exactly what is wrong with the country when it comes to our spend and our tax take. Until these vested interests are told to phuck off we should not be upping taxes in any area. The rest of your post is irrelevant with the exception of a comparison to Eir, who I agree offer a poor service but guess what you have a multitude of different vendors to change too as well as the option of not paying Eir for their service, now compare that to the HSE in how the general public interact with it we have not got the option not to use it or not to pay for it and we have no alternative. The Unions and other vested interest have for too long held way to much power in this country it has to be stated none of these people were elected by anyone in the country

Wanderer78

you can clearly see how imbedded our ideologies are of public sector bad, private sector almost perfect, but reality is saying other words....

once again, im sorry to inform you folks, both sectors actually have shortcomings, inefficiencies, failures etc etc etc, but this message has now become so deeply imbedded in our societies, it now has the potential to crash the whole lot. its clearly obvious that something is starting to catastrophically fail, in regards us being able to provide ourselves with out most critical of needs, again property and health care needs being the most obvious, but there are plenty of other issues also. a large proportion of the private sector has become a widescale wealth extractor, or whats called rent seeking, this behavior actually doesnt truly benefit anyone, including the wealthy, as its now causing significant destabilisation of virtually all human needs, and then of course theres the shortcomings of the public sector. those of you that have yet to accept this, some who i believe never actually will, are potentially dooming your kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews etc, we clearly need to bring both sectors together, to work in some sort of symbiotic way, to try create better societies and economies for all, or these younger generations are probably screwed, so.....

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047054#Comment_118047054

I never said the private sector was bad or good I made the point you have choice. Your completely misunderstanding the role of the private sector property owners/developers/builders with a nations need for housing. This need should never have been the remit of the private sector to supply housing for poorer people that chunk of work should always have sat with the government of the day and they dropped the ball over the last decade and half. No one planned for the additional 1/2 million increase in population over the last decade in population we have living here. This is squarely the fault of successive governments and trying to demonize the private sector builders/renters for making a profit while playing by the rules that the government has set down is wrong. The government can change this with the stroke of a pen BTW. The main difference between both public and private is the choice. The choice of not having to pay for a service. I mean if you don't want to pay a certain rate of rent in a certain area of the country they can move to an area that is lower it may not be ideal for the person but we cant all just pick and choose where we want to live, unless you are on welfare of course and then you can request a place 15 mins from Mum or to be in house with a south facing garden. It beggars believe that the more money you pay in tax the less support/services and selection you seem to have.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047174#Comment_118047174

i do agree with you in part, but theres clearly something fundamentally failing in both our public and private sectors, in regards providing our most critical needs, we have a tendency to default towards primarily blaming the public sector, the state etc etc, which of course are far from blameless, but theres clearly something fundamentally failing within our most critical private sectors also, in particularly in relation to the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), and we now have far clearer data and research supporting this also. yes these critical private sectors are required in resolving these issues, but we must also try to resolve the dangerous elements of these sectors, i.e. rent seeking, wealth extraction, monopolisation, speculation, etc etc etc

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024960#Comment_118024960

Oh really?

"Ireland has the second-highest health spending ratio in OECD area which comprises of 34 mainly developed countries but it has some of the worst health outcomes among advanced countries." http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506

"Ireland’s highly paid civil servants have been targeted by European Union bosses bank-rolling the country’s attempts to save the economy.

EU and IMF chiefs have launched an extensive probe into the outlandish wages earned by top Irish public sector workers.

...

The Sunday Independent reports that a series of recent surveys by government bodies has revealed that Ireland’s doctors, nurses, police and teachers are among the highest-paid public servants in the world." https://www.irishcentral.com/news/overpaid-public-servants-targeted-for-crackdown-by-imf-bosses-118733379-237378601

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047211#Comment_118047211

Yeap there are sections of the private sector that needs inspection but it is up to the public sector to do this. We cant vote for a private sector company to say lower its rate of insurance premium but the government can implement law that makes the insurance company lower its rates when the the conditions for an individual to get a lower rate is met when they are getting the insurance.

Also the basic needs of a citizen weather its food,shelter, education etc should never be the remit of the private sector. Private sector are driven by profits and competition and that is out of kilter with basic needs for someone who cant afford to pay. Yet people will demonize builders etc because the government dropped the ball on building social housing

Ash.J.Williams

As a lifelong left thinking pot head i think it's time we went conservative right wing for a while, i recently got the dream job i've always wanted and it's f**ing useless , i should be loaded but Ireland is too expensive , this is not normal and we are accepting it as normal.

fliball123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118047288#Comment_118047288

Your living the Irish dream :) wait till you retire although with the way things are going you may be 80 before that happens