What would Ireland look like if we didn't join the EU?

I'm picturing scenes from "Angela's Ashes";

People complain about cultural diversification and yes, when it's improperly managed (or ill-resourced), ees probleem.

But adapting to this is the basis for societal evolution (of course no one claimed this was easy nor straight forward).

Opening our doors to alternate cultures has been the best thing this country has done since the dark ages (the remnants of which I can recall being a kid), falling off my bike about 10% of the time I'd cycle down to my mates house, lose half a pound of flesh on the pot-holed, pebble stoned, non-tarmac road.

Then we joined the EU, had the infrastructure boom.

I recall a proper road was laid between my folks house and the small adjacent urban center.

It was so smooth, I'd never experienced anything like it before in my life, it felt divine - like a magic carpet ride, compared to the muck track it replaced.

We've gone from strength to strength ever since, the country we live in now.... millennials just don't know how it was for younger generations (and I still classify myself as a young generator, being a 90's kid).

Technology and the internet has clearly paved the way for globalization, it's like humanities nervous system in a way, a nervous system to the super organism.

Has the fundamental basis of historical Irish culture and thought process actually changed though, in spite of our diversification?

If we withdrew from the EU and had a non-native exodus, would it be back to square one?

Ubbquittious

I'd take the sh1t road surface in return for turfing out the EU rules. It is a high commitment club to be in, they regulate everything from a minimum price of petrol to what kind of food we are allowed to eat and what kind of car we are allowed to drive.

The J Stands for Jay

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212676/what-would-ireland-look-like-if-we-didnt-join-the-eu

90s kids are millenials.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009024#Comment_118009024

Ireland has one of the higher petrol prices in Europe and most of it is made up of domestic taxes (VAT/Duty etc). How is that the big bad EU's fault? I'm glad for high EU food standards - god knows what shiite we'd be eating otherwise - food standards in the US are grim compared to here. What kind of car are you denied driving by the EU?

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009024#Comment_118009024

I think that is a fairly superficial and erroneous view of what the EU does. Yes there are some regulations but your narrative on it sounds very brexitesque high in generalities and low on facts. The benefits of Ireland in the EU far outweigh some small loss of control when viewed in the bigger picture. You don't have to have a degree in Economics to realise this surely?

--

In answer to the OP's question if Ireland did not join the EU first thing I thought about was no or much less immigrants from Eastern Europe in recent years - many of whom did the jobs Irish people would not .

And how Ireland would have been much less likely to have had a Celtic Tiger and brought out of the doldrums in the 80's - Ireland has been a net recipient for much of its time in the EC/EU.

Then of course there is the practical stuff ranging from how the Irish Agricultural sector has benefited from Ireland being in the EU, right down to the nitty gritty of data protection law and the likes in a more general sense.

I would argue that the EU has given Ireland a much bigger voice on the international stage than it otherwise would of had. And the Economic and Social benefits have been multiple. A much larger market and a chance to have a voice heard in European Affairs.

If Ireland was not in the EU all that would have been lost.

dudley72

Without the EU we would of never had a Celtic Tiger. Some might complain about the Celtic Tiger but just look at what came before it.

Even today Ireland is massively improved compared to what it was pre-Tiger. None of that would be possible without the EU.

Fred Cryton

The EU and euro are great and all but further integration would not be in Irelands interest IMO. It would be fiscal integration, ie the EU would raise taxes directly just like the US Federal government. We in Ireland would be a massive net contributor to that and would be on the hook for Greek, Spanish and Italian public debt.

This far and no further i say.

Anyone born in the 60s has some idea of what Ireland might look like if not in the EU. Having said that, in my early teen years Minister Justin Keating was looking at negotiating a major National interest in Norway’s oil company Statoil. There’s not much poverty in Norway, and in theory we could have had a slice of that.

OneEightSeven

Without freedom of movement, young families would be able to afford their own homes because immigration is the biggest driving force behind our housing crisis.

banie01

Probably much like Bulgaria outside of Sunny Beach looks like even now. Ireland has seen dramatic and welcome economic, social and societal change as part of the EU.

The reactionary component of Catholic conservatism and opposition to change was strong and I often wonder what would have happened to our EEC - EC- EU membership path if social media and right wing reactionary movements were able to avail of those tools in the '70s,80's and 90's or even pre Maastricht and Lisbon.

It was hard enough to deal with information pre the last 2 EU referenda. Imagine what the situation would have been like facing those votes in the full on Social Media glare?

I'd think the likes of Cambridge Analytica and other data mining and influence operations would have had a field day!

MarkEadie

Ireland has gotten a net of 40 billion from the EU which went from turning the country from being in a bad state to being much better. If you ask your parents what Ireland was like in the 70s before the EU started giving Ireland billions to improve itself, you would understand.

Kermit.de.frog

The notion that we need the EU to be successful is a complete fallacy. Ireland was poor in the 60's due to our own internal insular economic policy. Maidens at the crossroads and all that stuff.

The wealth we have would have happened anyway in a globalised world. It suits small countries.

The EU needs serious reform and to be a trading bloc. Nothing more than that.

The EU has sufficient warning with Brexit and issues in other countries like Poland and Hungary atm not to further infringe on national sovereignty.

And lets not even begin with the economic prison for the "PIIGS" countries that is the Euro currency. We have already seen what happens when you have a currency involving countries of entirely different outlooks in 2008. Again sufficient warning has been given.

There is an indoctrination in Ireland from the political class regarding the EU which verges on fanatical and it's not healthy particularly in the long run.

Annasopra

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010568#Comment_118010568

How can you say (with a probable straight face) investment into Ireland from the EU made no difference?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010151#Comment_118010151

Freedom of movement means those young families can go off and buy a house in a different country, maybe a warmer, sunnier one 😁

Podge_irl

Exactly what role do you envision Ireland would have played in this globalised world outside of the EU?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010863#Comment_118010863

Shows how little understanding you have of the practicalities of being a young family.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009101#Comment_118009101

Most of that is right but there are no jobs that Irish people don't do. Unless pay has gotten so low that they didn't bother. The EU is largely good, but it needs to be a much more cohesive force on defense and less involved on immigration, leaving that to the nations.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010841#Comment_118010841

Not to mention the Market and contacts the EU opened up to Ireland. A small country. When you look at the difficulty the British are having negotiating other trade deals to compensate for no EU it really stands out. And the UK is a much larger country.

It does not bear thinking about how a small country like Ireland would fare on the outskirts of Europe geographically and outside the EU. It’s negotiating power would have been severely weakened and basically would only have the British to prop Ireland up.

tdf7187

If we hadn't joined the EU, we would look like a combination of Roscommon, Jersey and Lithuania. No offense to the people from any of those places, obviously.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011750#Comment_118011750

Really?

young families don't move no?

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010151#Comment_118010151

Except, of course, without EU membership (or similar) Ireland would be a much poorer country, so that might militate against young families affording their own homes.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010568#Comment_118010568

Ireland was poor in the 60s due to our insular economic policy. Joining the EU and participating in the single market is the major part of the ways in which we reversed and then overcame the insularity of our economic policy. The notion of Ireland having customs and regulatory barriers with its immediate neighbours and yet not having an insular economic policy is a contradictory one.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012395#Comment_118012395

EU membership also caused a high level of security for foreign investors in the country. It basically paved the way for various IT companies from the US coming into Ireland.

Peregrinus

Yeah. To be honest, I'm a little puzzled at the notion of Ireland pursuing an open, progressive, pro-trading, non-insular economic strategy and yet eschewing EU/SM membership, which here in the real world is the central plank of that strategy. I'm looking around for an example of another country in Europe doing this, but I'm not seeing one.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010151#Comment_118010151

The neighbours ended free movement. Take a wild guess at what happened to house prices. You need to find different scapegoats.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/1007/1251250-uk-house-prices/

Shao Kahn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010135#Comment_118010135

Interesting the way many people just simply ignore countries like Norway or Switzerland, or make up BS excuses why they're successful outside the EU. Basically why they are special unique cases, and don't warrant consideration.

The reality is that, it's perfectly possible to be successful both inside AND outside the European Union. There are many examples - just as there are many examples of countries who are doing rubbish inside the EU.

The notion that Ireland NEEDS the European Union in order to be successful and prosperous, is false and displays a certain degree of ignorance (deliberate or otherwise) on the part of those who push this narrative.

It also displays a distinct lack of self confidence within many of our citizens, with regard to our ability to make our own decisions as a nation and back ourselves to be successful in the world. I've been to countries like Norway and Switzerland, and they really don't seem to suffer from this paralyzing lack of courage. That's not to say they always make the correct decisions, of course, but they do seem to back themselves to succeed.

I think many of our citizens love the EU, more because of a fear of missing out (FOMO), rather than any great ideological stance. Like a comfort blanket, for someone who is afraid of the dark. But the EU does not guarantee any nation safety security or prosperity - it's all just a bit of an illusion.

It really depends who is making the decisions at the top table, and how intelligent those decisions are. Badly thought out ideas will (and have) messed up many nations. It doesn't matter whether that's inside or outside the European Union.

ohnonotgmail

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012540#Comment_118012540

We are not switzerland or norway. Without the EU we would still be a backwards hole.

Dyr

We'd have been in a bad way without access to the common market which is completely different to the shitshow that is the EU

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012352#Comment_118012352

Yes; really.

You think it's trivial to up sticks to a "warmer, sunnier" country with young children? There's a myriad of considerations like employment, local language ability, education, relationships with grandparents, aunts / uncles, cousins. Not to mention that most young families are pretty happy here in Ireland, despite grappling with rapidly rising housing costs.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012540#Comment_118012540

Yes, but even countries like Norway and Switzerland that aren't members of the EU nevertheless acheive their success through their close relationship with the EU - they "need the EU to be successful", in Kermit's words. Without the EU there is no Single Market, and without the Single Market countries like Norway and Switzerland are not pursuing the policies which they have in fact pursued with such success.

Like I said, I'm struggling to image a successful, non-insular economic policy for Ireland or any European country which doesn't involve either membership of, or a very close connection with, the EU. And nobody who claims that such a thing is possible is pointing to any real-world examples, or even outlining a hypothetical way in which it might be done.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012615#Comment_118012615

Lots of people wish to do it, it's not such an amazing thought!

Anyway, let's not go down the usual route of blaming immigrants for our housing crisis eh?

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012660#Comment_118012660

You can point to data to quantify "lots"? Or are you talking through your hole about a life, of which you have at best, the most superficial understanding?

Let's also not go down the well trodden path of you bleating about racism to shut down discussions, eh?

Grab All Association

We’d be somewhat similar to New Zealand and have probably had negotiated a number of trade deals with other countries and the EU. People forget that Ireland had a lot more industry before joining the EU. There was also multinationals opening/long established here before EU membership. Off my head Krups came here in 1964. We also had more hospitals, less crime and less homelessness.

Take Thurles for example, still an unemployment black spot for over 32 years. It had Irish Sugar, Erin Foods, Phoenix Yarns, SweeneysBakery Tiklas, Tipperary Candy, Tipperary Cereals, Hibernian Foods, Marriot Radiators O' Meara's and Dwans. Suir Valley Icecream, Cody's, bakrery. The town was booming in the 1960s.

replace Thurles with any other provincial town and I’m sure it’d be similar story.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012540#Comment_118012540

The economy that we do have now is completely reliant on the EU. We do not have a fossil fuel industry or massive historical banking industry. What exactly is it you think Ireland could have done?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010151#Comment_118010151

Straight up lie

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012658#Comment_118012658

We had the single market before the EU existed. European nations were trading successfully long before the EU existed and will be doing so long after its gone. It's a weirdly Chinese idea that nothing good would be possible without the existence of the great benevolent government

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012734#Comment_118012734

Of course we'd have trade deals, though they wouldn't be as good.

Globalisation and the decline of local industry is not a phenomenon depending solely on Ireland's membership of the EU.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012615#Comment_118012615

It may not be trivial, but historically Irish people have a very high propensity to emigrate and, when conditions at home become unfavourable, it's something we resort to much more readily than most other countries do. In the past people would emigrate to escape an economy that could not provide them with employment; in the future it's by no means impossible that they would emigrate to escape an economy that cannot provide them with housing.

As to the example of Norway/Switzerland.

The latter were highly diversified long before the EU.

Ever been? Most cats speak about 3 languages in their general daily meanderings.

i.e. cultural diversity was always a staple part of their setup, and their integrative abilities in this sense seemed to reflect quite well culturally and (almost certainly not co-incidentally), economically.

Ireland?

Many dudes were muck-savages back when.

I mean, legit, and there's parts that still try to hold onto their muck-savagery like their balls, like they're proud of that shit.

No wonder the Irish language can't take off, when it's so inherently associated with living out of a bog hole and dancing to the tin-whistle.

Hell there's immigrants have got a better hold on our own language now (via being raised in Irish schools), than many natives ever did.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012880#Comment_118012880

Hah yeah those welcoming cosmopolitan Swiss. Loads of them are total reactionaries.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012901#Comment_118012901

Reactionaries?

Reactionaries to what?

They're not part of the EU.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012916#Comment_118012916

Narrow-minded reactionary conservatives. Plenty of them could be viewed as as closeminded and backwards as you are tarring the Irish.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012853#Comment_118012853

Agreed. However, the context of this discussion is the EU. There is no historical precedent for statistically significant numbers of young Irish families emigrating to EU countries, with the exception of the UK, which is no longer a member. I don't believe that it's highly probable that we will see substantial waves of Irish emigrants transplanting to Germany, France, Scandinavia etc.

I also agree that housing costs could potentially be a push factor. There are several root causes of the housing crises that we are currently experiencing, one of which is of course, supply and demand. The supply simply isn't there to cater for strong demand from a growing population, driven to a large extent by natural increase, but also by substantial inward migration, from both within and outside of the EU.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012691#Comment_118012691

Lol, superficial understanding 😂

the freedom of movement allowed because of our membership of the EU is one of the most positives elements. Which you yourself enjoyed, if I'm not mistaken?

The point of my original post, which you jumped on, was merely answering a post from someone claiming that young families cannot buy houses here because of immigration caused by EU membership. Do you agree?

Never mentioned racism btw, where are you pulling that from??

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012927#Comment_118012927

Any ideas on why our population is growing so quickly? Natural population growth is very predictable.

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118012880#Comment_118012880

Poor attempt. Try much harder.

Wanderer78

we d probably be fcuked outside of the eu, the uk is gonna seriously regret this one, you do most of your trade with your closed neighbors, so that would mean, we d be screwed

Dyr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013206#Comment_118013206

It's a weird trade deal the EU offers, divest your parliament of control of your borders, laws etc. for good or lose access to the common market.

Sunny Disposition

It's impossible to know, really impossible.

Saying the EU has been good for Ireland is I suspect true, but it's impossible to know nearly 50 years on. Socially it insisted on us stopping the criminalisation of gay acts, so obviously that was good.

We certainly exploited the economic opportunities that came with it, but we'll never know what would have happened without it.

There is a tendency to view things in black and white terms around the EU I think, every thing positive gets credited to it and no negatives are acknowledged.

Free movement is basically a good thing, but there's no doubt the level of inward migration makes coming up with decent housing policy very hard.

I don't think there'll ever be any appetite for Ireland leaving the EU, but it's impossible to know what would have happened if we hadn't joined. We'll never know that. Whether we joined or not Ireland would inevitably have changed dramatically in the 48 years since, but it's impossible to say what the impact would have been.

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013159#Comment_118013159

Natural population growth is actually fairly unpredictable. Ireland actually experienced very high levels of natural growth from 2008-2012. It has since receded, but the population still grew naturally by ~25K last year, despite the pandemic. Who knows what future trends will bring..

The population is growing rapidly due to a combination of natural growth + inward migration.

SeeMoreBut

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118009024#Comment_118009024

What particular rules are you referring to? Not a generic statement but a particular law or rule

Hamachi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013153#Comment_118013153

1. Surface-level understanding. Whatever - same thing lol
2. For once, I agree with you on something. Intra-EU freedom of movement is a positive and should be protected.
3. You weren't merely answering a post. It was the standard-level riposte, suggesting that young Irish families can simply go live somewhere 'sunnier'. Par for the course.
4. As above, the root cause of the housing crisis is supply and demand. Demand is driven primarily by population growth, to which EU inward migration is a contributory pipeline. Is it the primary reason why young people are locked out of the housing market? No.